A Lesson for Traditionalists on Communion in the hand

[I_Believe]

A Lesson for Traditionalists on Communion in the hand.

By the way Paul, I wasn’t pooh poohing your post as Spirthound suggested.

I just don’t see how trying to convince liberals, who as you say, simply don’t know any better, will be an effective way to win the war.

One of the reasons we have an issue to start with is that the shots are being called from the wrong rung of the ladder. The indult permitting CITH has to go. That’s the answer.

The war has to be waged at the Vatican. Cardinal Canizares has said he wants Archbishop Ranjith to stay in Rome, or at least someone of like mind. I have a hunch something is in the works. If so, a lot of Bishops are going to throw a fit.

 

[I_Believe]

I’ve always considered it to be the plainest reading of the Last Supper narratives. Something so unusual as them being fed surely would have been included?

Spirithound, you seem to be totally dismissing the fact that the majority of laity and clergy are not displaying concern for the lost fragments of the Blessed Sacrament.

It does not matter if they passed a plate at the Last Supper. And it doesn’t matter if Jesus fed them Himself. The Church determined it best to receive on the tongue. This is still the norm. CITT is permitted by an indult which dictates conditions that have not been met, and are nearly impossible to enforce.

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP, Letter “En reponse a la demande,” to presidents of those conferences of bishops petitioning the indult for communion in the hand, 29 May 1969: AAS 61 (1969) 546-547; Not 5 (1969) 351-353.

    In reply to the request of your conference of bishops regarding permission to give communion by placing the host on the hand of the faithful, I wish to communicate the following. Pope Paul Vl calls attention to the purpose of the Instruction Memoriale Domini of 29 May 1969, on retaining the traditional practice in use. At the same time he has taken into account the reasons given to support your request and the outcome of the vote taken on this matter. The Pope grants that throughout the territory of your conference, each bishop may, according to his prudent judgment and conscience, authorize in his diocese the introduction of the new rite for giving communion. **The condition is the complete avoidance of any cause for the faithful to be shocked and any danger of irreverence toward the Eucharist.** The following norms must therefore be respected.

    1. The new manner of giving communion must not be imposed in a way that would exclude the traditional practice. It is a matter of particular seriousness that in places where the new practice is lawfully permitted every one of the faithful have the option of receiving communion on the tongue and even when other persons are receiving communion in the hand. The two ways of receiving communion can without question take place during the same liturgical service. There is a twofold purpose here: that none will find in the new rite anything disturbing to personal devotion toward the Eucharist; **that this sacrament, the source and cause of unity by its very nature, will not become an occasion of discord between members of the faithful.**

ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_in_hand.htm

Some Catholics do find it shocking, and the fears of the Holy See have manifest. And we haven’t gotten past the intro, let alone the first norm that “must be respected”.

This indult enables abuse and it increases the chance of a mishap tenfold. It does nothing to build Faith in the Real Presence and in fact can weaken it. There is no unity the text of the indult mentions. Everyone has his/her way of receiving in the hand. Some look at the priest or EMHC and smile. Some don’t. Some look at the Host and adore it briefly. Some don’t. Some drink from the cup and some don’t. Those that do not, may pass by the EMHC and make a gesture of reverence, and some walk by without giving it a second thought.

Is that unity ? Is there discord ?

 

[PaulAndrew83]

I do not think we will ever convince liberals untill we convince them that liberalism needs to go .

However there are still a great deal of Catholic(as opposed to liberal) people out there many of whom receive in the hand because they don’t know any better. There are people who do want to be true Catholics but when it comes to this subject there is too much discussion on things that do not reach the heart of the issue.

If all traditionalists in a forum concentrated on always returning to the real reason why the modern practice is wrong, then it would quickly cut through the rubbish arguments that liberals present.

It is a kind of war and what I am suggesting is a concentration and an armored punch to the jugular with the truth.

Paul

 

[Spirithound]

Spirithound, you seem to be totally dismissing the fact that the majority of laity and clergy are not displaying concern for the lost fragments of the Blessed Sacrament.

It does not matter if they passed a plate at the Last Supper. And it doesn’t matter if Jesus fed them Himself. The Church determined it best to receive on the tongue. This is still the norm. CITT is permitted by an indult which dictates conditions that have not been met, and are nearly impossible to enforce.

Some Catholics do find it shocking, and the fears of the Holy See have manifest. And we haven’t gotten past the intro, let alone the first norm that “must be respected”.

This indult enables abuse and it increases the chance of a mishap tenfold. It does nothing to build Faith in the Real Presence and in fact can weaken it. There is no unity the text of the indult mentions. Everyone has his/her way of receiving in the hand. Some look at the priest or EMHC and smile. Some don’t. Some look at the Host and adore it briefly. Some don’t. Some drink from the cup and some don’t. Those that do not, may pass by the EMHC and make a gesture of reverence, and some walk by without giving it a second thought.

Is that unity ? Is there discord ?

Sorry, threads do have a tendency to wander slightly. I do feel that I addressed the issue of displaying concern for lost fragments of the Blessed Sacrament by acknowledging PA’s point that the laity need to be instructed on this point.

I agree there is a problem, a big problem, but I think the answer is education, by word and example. If PA is seeing priests not perform the ablutions, that’s a problem. If he knows the sacrarium is not being used, that’s a problem. If the priest shows such little respect, what are the people to do? Priests need to lead by example first, then preaching on receiving Holy Communion worthily. That means preaching on sin, Confession, the pre-Communion fast, full active conscious participation, and the actual physical act of receiving properly (order of topics up for debate).

I’m sure that this lack of preaching is what actually caused the downgrading of respect, but an outright prohibition is not going to work. Start from the ground → up. Make people want to respect Jesus in the Holy Sacrament.

 

[I_Believe]

I do not think we will ever convince liberals untill we convince them that liberalism needs to go .

However there are still a great deal of Catholic(as opposed to liberal) people out there many of whom receive in the hand because they don’t know any better. There are people who do want to be true Catholics but when it comes to this subject there is too much discussion on things that do not reach the heart of the issue.

If all traditionalists in a forum concentrated on always returning to the real reason why the modern practice is wrong, then it would quickly cut through the rubbish arguments that liberals present.

It is a kind of war and what I am suggesting is a concentration and an armored punch to the jugular with the truth.

Paul

Fair enough. I do like that idea, and I’m sure there are many guests that browse these threads and are indeed becoming aware of the issue.

After some thought on it, you are right.

 

[I_Believe]

Sorry, threads do have a tendency to wander slightly. I do feel that I addressed the issue of displaying concern for lost fragments of the Blessed Sacrament by acknowledging PA’s point that the laity need to be instructed on this point.

I agree there is a problem, a big problem, but I think the answer is education, by word and example. If PA is seeing priests not perform the ablutions, that’s a problem. If he knows the sacrarium is not being used, that’s a problem. If the priest shows such little respect, what are the people to do? Priests need to lead by example first, then preaching on receiving Holy Communion worthily. That means preaching on sin, Confession, the pre-Communion fast, full active conscious participation, and the actual physical act of receiving properly (order of topics up for debate).

I’m sure that this lack of preaching is what actually caused the downgrading of respect, but an outright prohibition is not going to work. Start from the ground → up. Make people want to respect Jesus in the Holy Sacrament.

I agree, and yes I did skim over your post(s) hastily. Mea culpa.

I’m still not sure about the EMHC issue though. Unless those we want to reach have an epithany, a lot of them will still feel self conscience about bypassing the EMHC.

I’m not trying to dismiss Pauls idea, but what if we do succeed in convincing a majority of the flock in a single parish ? Say we succeed in convincing them of the importance of adoration when receiving. That is great, but if they continue to receive in the hand, fragments will continue to wind up on the ground.

That is why I suggest the indult be removed. Receiving on the tongue is the best we can do to minimize fragment loss. As long as EMHC and CITH remain options, we are not doing our best.

 

[pipper]

Stupid me, I took the OP seriously when I posted about the practical use of the communion Paten, only to be roundly ignored by one and all.

It turns out the OP was ignored as well, and his thread devolved into the usual Traditionalist vs regular Catholic free for all.

I stll think there needs to be a forum for what I call “regular” Catholics, people who do not go into a hizzy over the so called advantages of the TLM Mass over Novus Ordo.

I was told on that thread thatn this the place for all Catholics to post, but when we regular Catholics do post we are quickly called to task by the Traditionalists.

Im getting just a little discouraged.:sad_yes:

 

[shuzo1189]

Stupid me, I took the OP seriously when I posted about the practical use of the communion Paten, only to be roundly ignored by one and all.

It turns out the OP was ignored as well, and his thread devolved into the usual Traditionalist vs regular Catholic free for all.

I stll think there needs to be a forum for what I call “regular” Catholics, people who do not go into a hizzy over the so called advantages of the TLM Mass over Novus Ordo.

I was told on that thread thatn this the place for all Catholics to post, but when we regular Catholics do post we are quickly called to task by the Traditionalists.

Im getting just a little discouraged.:sad_yes:

The Use of the paten underneath the Hands I find really does not resolve the issue. I mean its a Good idea don’t get me wrong but simply putting a Paten under a Communicant’s mouth while recieving on the tounge would simplify this entire situation. Its not a Strictly TLM deal, i attend a very Reverent OF Mass where the communicant’s recieve at an Altar Rail on the tounge with a Paten placed under-neath there chin. the Mass is typically in the Vernacular with the Ordinary of the Mass always Chanted.

 

[pipper]

The Use of the paten underneath the Hands I find really does not resolve the issue. I mean its a Good idea don’t get me wrong but simply putting a Paten under a Communicant’s mouth while recieving on the tounge would simplify this entire situation. Its not a Strictly TLM deal, i attend a very Reverent OF Mass where the communicant’s recieve at an Altar Rail on the tounge with a Paten placed under-neath there chin. the Mass is typically in the Vernacular with the Ordinary of the Mass always Chanted.

What I would give to find such a place. Around here all we get is Mariachi Mass with tons of guitars, or Mass in English with more guitars, or guitars with a piano, no organ in my town at all. There is one count them one pipe organ in the next biggest town and it still has to compete with guitars
No altar rails anywhere in the diocese I know of, not even in the cathedral, they were all swept away.

Geesh,I’m sounding more like a traditionalist than I realised.

 

[pipper]

BTW, I intended to say the paten should not stay under the commicants hand, but follow the hands to the mouth, making sure that Our Lord is not removed from the church.

Maybe we should do like the Presbyterians did. They required that if you wanted Holy Communion you would have to go to the Elders AND be examined (like confession), be approved and get a token you presented at the Altar, no token…no communion.

It’s just an impractical idea, I know, but it would get people back into the confessional for once.

 

[shuzo1189]

BTW, I intended to say the paten should not stay under the commicants hand, but follow the hands to the mouth, making sure that Our Lord is not removed from the church.

Maybe we should do like the Presbyterians did. They required that if you wanted Holy Communion you would have to go to the Elders AND be examined (like confession), be approved and get a token you presented at the Altar, no token…no communion.

It’s just an impractical idea, I know, but it would get people back into the confessional for once.

I honestly really like the Eastern Rite way of giving The Precious Blood and Body at once with a Spoon (I have no idea of the technical terms for this practice.)

Token’s haha, What we need is to place in our Statues behind the Sanctuary some sort of Laser Grid that tracks the intention of the person receiving Maybe that will be my first task if im lucky enough to Join the Dominican Order after College (Im getting my B.S. in Information Systems, The power of a Masters in Theology with a Bachelors in I.S. would be scary indeed!)

 

[weepixie71]

i say go through the children.

a child with their larger than life imaginations and their desperate desire to do right by God would be able to see the incredulity of unsanctified hands that only a priest can have touching the Eucharist. they could imagine the minuscule pieces fall to the ground that us adults dont see, though i dont understand how they ignore the particles you can feel. (that one baffles me.) and most importantly they do not have a libral agenda. they just want to make God happy. also when things come from your child, you dont get your back up like you do from an adult.

i started a childrens rosary once where we tried to get together the 13th of every month. we discussed the mysteries of the rosary and visions of Mary asking to pray the rosary. and then we prayed. parents dropped the children off often just for some quiet time they hardly ever stayed. but then something weird happened. the children started to remind their parents to pray the rosary at home. the parents wanting to be a good example prayed their rosary when ordinarily the wouldnt have.

children would be more open to learn the difference between what is accepted and what is acceptable. get them when things are black and white and not all kinds of shades of gray.

 

[SElizabeth]

I receive the Sacred Body in the hand and I am NOT LIBERAL. Please do not label everyone who receives that way as such. It is very uncomfortable to receive the the host on the tongue for me for many reasons. I consider myself a traditionalist and not a liberal. It is not kind to think you are holier and better because you receive our Lord on the tongue.
Thank you

 

[PaulAndrew83]

Dear Elisabeth.

If you want to label yourself a Traditionalist. You should go and talk to a Priest.
You should ask him to explain to you the use of the sacrarium, the clasping of the fingers, the ablutions, the method for purifying places where the Blessed Sacrament drop.

Please if you receive in the hand you are not a traditionalist.

Paul

 

[Scott_D]

We were instructed in my parish(about 7 churches) to receive communion in the hand a couple of weeks ago because of swine flu. Also, the Blood has been taken away from the laity because of the same reason.

 

[weepixie71]

I receive the Sacred Body in the hand and I am NOT LIBERAL. Please do not label everyone who receives that way as such. It is very uncomfortable to receive the the host on the tongue for me for many reasons. I consider myself a traditionalist and not a liberal. It is not kind to think you are holier and better because you receive our Lord on the tongue.
Thank you

i dont believe one thinks one is “holier” or “better” because they receive on the tongue. i do believe though that the more the host is handled the more that can go wrong. and the host does leave residue on your hands. what happens to that residue? are the priests hand not consecrated and doesnt he himself wash them carefully before handling the host not before mass starts but right before he is going to handle the host. it is one thing if there is a medical issue. example: you have a hard time fully opening your mouth do to a form of cancer of the mouth or you had dental work and your mouth is still numb etc. but if you are just uncomfortable because you have ugly teeth or because it just feels foolish then you have a chance to offer up to God an act of humility and are passing it up.

 

[SElizabeth]

Dear Paul Andrew and WeePixie,
You have no right to label people because of the way they practice their religion. How do you know who is a traditionalist/liberal, etc? You don’t. That was my whole point. Do not label people because you “think” you know what is best. Be nice to people and you will get them to see your point. Don’t be so “know it all”
Thanks

 

[paperwight]

i say go through the children.

a child with their larger than life imaginations and their desperate desire to do right by God would be able to see the incredulity of unsanctified hands that only a priest can have touching the Eucharist. they could imagine the minuscule pieces fall to the ground that us adults dont see, QUOTE

The Church teaches that Our Lord is ‘under the appearance’ of the Bread and Wine, and that when the appearance of bread and wine are no more, then neither is the Real Presence.

How can you say that imagined invisible particles are still containing the Real Presence?

 

[paperwight]

You are misunderstanding the Lavabo. The prayer the priest says is ‘Lord, wash away my iniquities and cleanse me of my sins’.

It is symbolic, a traditional gesture denoting the wish to be free of sin, nothing to do with handling the Host.

 

[paperwight]

i do believe though that the more the host is handled the more that can go wrong. and the host does leave residue on your hands. what happens to that residue? QUOTE

This is what I don’t understand about these discusions; the altar breads I have received all over the world do not ‘leave a residue’.

Do churches in the United States use crumbly altar-breads. of a type not known elsewhere in the world? Any hosts I have received have been in the form of wafers which have been stamped out of a larger sheet, and therefore have sealed edges. There are no fragments, no crumbs, no residue.

I am a sacristan and occasionally I notice crumbs in the bottom of the plastic bags the altar-breads are delivered in, but that’s due to them being jogged about in transit. If a sacristan just pours them out into a ciborium, some of these crumbs might end up visble in the ciborium used for Holy Communion. Obviously they are not distributed, and they can end up eventually in the Tabernacle when the unused Hosts are combined at the end of Holy Communion (our priests occasionally clear out the Tabernacle and consume all the crumbs).

But this crumbling is purely because the sacristan hasn’t noticed , or hasn’t wanted to handle the altar-breads too much, for reasons of hygiene. It doesn’t happen during Holy Communion itself, because, as I said, the edges are sealed.