A life for a life

[shockerfan]

Capital punishment is not justified based on the concept of self defense. Rather it is justified on the concept of justice.

Ender

Perhaps not the primary reason, but a related and necessary reason: The Church’s teaching on Capital Punishment incorporates the concept of self-defense…from CCC 2267:

“Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Also, don’t forget that the 3 preceding paragraphs to the section on Capital Punishment are the 3 “legitimate defense” paragraphs. Then looking at 2266:

“The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.”

 

[Ender]

Perhaps not the primary reason, but a related and necessary reason: The Church’s teaching on Capital Punishment incorporates the concept of self-defense…from CCC 2267:

Defense is a valid objective of punishment, but it is only a secondary one. Nor is it a necessary objective in the sense that every punishment must satisfy that objective. The only required objective is that the punishment be just.

Also, don’t forget that the 3 preceding paragraphs to the section on Capital Punishment are the 3 “legitimate defense” paragraphs.

This has been another source of confusion. It appears that in the USCCB version what you say is true, but in the version on the Vatican web site, 2266 is part of the section on capital punishment.

Ender

 

[ignatius777]

The teaching (doctrine) of the church has not changed. The teaching (prudential judgment) of her recent popes is that it ought not be used.

Ender

Correct and so no contradiction exist in my point of view

 

[ignatius777]

Capital punishment is not justified based on the concept of self defense. Rather it is justified on the concept of justice.

Ender

Justice alone is not the issue as putting a killer behind bars for life serves justice just fine. The CCC says capital punishment can be used to neutralize a threat to society.

 

[Ender]

Justice alone is not the issue as putting a killer behind bars for life serves justice just fine. The CCC says capital punishment can be used to neutralize a threat to society.

That’s not quite accurate. Capital punishment cannot be used simply to neutralize threats. It must always be a just punishment first; its use as protection is a beneficial side effect, not a justifying principle. Nor is it obvious that a life sentence adequately satisfies the obligation of justice.

Ender

 

[ignatius777]

That’s not quite accurate. Capital punishment cannot be used simply to neutralize threats. It must always be a just punishment first; its use as protection is a beneficial side effect, not a justifying principle. Nor is it obvious that a life sentence adequately satisfies the obligation of justice.

Ender

I didn’t say it could be used “simply to neutralize threats”. Life imprisonment most certainly satisfies justice. As someone else said. as long as life exist redemption is possible. We should be a people of both justice and redemption.

 

[Ender]

Life imprisonment most certainly satisfies justice.

Based on what - the assertion that it is true? How would you respond to someone who said a ten year sentence satisfied justice? What criteria are you using? More importantly, what criteria have the church provided that support those assertions?

As someone else said. as long as life exist redemption is possible. We should be a people of both justice and redemption.

The church herself uses an execution as an example of a sentence that can lead to redemption. (See the footnote to the last sentence of 2266).

Ender

 

[ignatius777]

Based on what - the assertion that it is true? How would you respond to someone who said a ten year sentence satisfied justice? What criteria are you using? More importantly, what criteria have the church provided that support those assertions?

The church herself uses an execution as an example of a sentence that can lead to redemption. (See the footnote to the last sentence of 2266).

Ender

I said life sentence, why are you asking ten years?

 

[tweedlealice]

Hi,
A priest explained to me that capital punishment was okay on some principles in the Old Testament. Technically, premeditated murder, you were stoned. If you walked in on your wife in an amourous situation without you, and you killed one or both of them, you were allowed to go to a center city for shelter and you would not be punished. Spont aneous murder. There are some more. Commandmant #5 Has been changed to “Thou shalt not murder” After scholarly study of multiple scholars of different faiths w Catholics and Jews. They came up w the murder in place of kill.
Now, as a pro-lifer and I know the grey areas, I got into a debate w a pro-choice person. Now, I was for the death penalty and he wasn’t. He’d kill babies and not adults and I was the opposite. Adults chose to commit crimes.
Anyway, Ii said>" Would Jesus perform and abortion?"=NO.
Would Jesus pull the switch or push the medicines?=NO
SO WHERE DID THAT LEAVE ME!!! The Bishops say no. I have to say no. But,
I am not marching against the death penalty. I pray the guilty only are punished that way.
Did you see where they want to shoot the guilty w a firing squad. People were saying the meds were cruel. I was a nurse. Versed-sleep, Pavulon or any other paralytic,stops breathing and ,finally, KCL pushed fast=stops the heart. You sleep during your death. We could increase Versed and just kill you with that. Anyway, no death penalties.
In Christs’ love,
tweedlealice

 

[Ender]

I said life sentence, why are you asking ten years?

To make the point that unless there are specific criteria involved in deciding what constitutes a just punishment then 10 years is no less arbitrary than life. You suggested that life was a just punishment for murder, I countered with 10 years. Why is my proposal any less arbitrary than yours? If you cannot justify your claim that life is an adequate punishment then you can have no logical objection to my assertion that 10 years is just.

Ender

 

[ignatius777]

To make the point that unless there are specific criteria involved in deciding what constitutes a just punishment then 10 years is no less arbitrary than life. You suggested that life was a just punishment for murder, I countered with 10 years. Why is my proposal any less arbitrary than yours? If you cannot justify your claim that life is an adequate punishment then you can have no logical objection to my assertion that 10 years is just.

Ender

Murder ends a life. Restricting a persons life to a prison cell for taking a life essentially ends that life. That’s more just than 10 yrs.

 

[tweedlealice]

Hi,
A priest explained to me that capital punishment was okay on some principles in the Old Testament. Technically, premeditated murder, you were stoned. If you walked in on your wife in an amourous situation without you, and you killed one or both of them, you were allowed to go to a certain city for shelter and you would not be punished. Spont aneous murder. There are some more. Commandmant #5 Has been changed to “Thou shalt not murder” After scholarly study of multiple scholars of different faiths w Catholics and Jews. They came up w the murder in place of kill.
Now, as a pro-lifer and I know the grey areas, I got into a debate w a pro-choice person. Now, I was for the death penalty and he wasn’t. He’d kill babies and not adults and I was the opposite. Adults chose to commit crimes.
Anyway, Ii said>" Would Jesus perform and abortion?"=NO.
Would Jesus pull the switch or push the medicines?=NO
SO WHERE DID THAT LEAVE ME!!! The Bishops say no. I have to say no. But,
I am not marching against the death penalty. I pray the guilty only are punished that way.
Did you see where they want to shoot the guilty w a firing squad. People were saying the meds were cruel. I was a nurse. Versed-sleep, Pavulon or any other paralytic,stops breathing and ,finally, KCL pushed fast=stops the heart. You sleep during your death. We could increase Versed and just kill you with that. Anyway, no death penalties.
In Christs’ love,
tweedlealice