A Life Sentence for Possessing Child Pornography?

[Warrenton]

I wouldn’t use him as a moral authority in many issues, but as Lester Maddox once said, if you don’t like my jails, don’t break my laws.

No problem between Lester and me, Arizona.

As you can see from my other posts, I want the laws to be more stringent.

I’m just saying that the concepts behind the present laws are losing their persuasive force, becauses they are chiefly the products of a moral consensus that no longer prevails.

There are powerful, well financed interests that will continue to expose the gap between reality and the law to undermine it. I predict success over time.

In a time when most 18 year olds were not sexually active, the laws made a certain intuitive sense. In a time when most 18 year olds are sexually active, they do not.

When a judge strikes down any attempt to suppress the pornography of 18 year olds who are a day over 18, and then sentences a young man to life in prison for having child pornography that the law does next to nothing to prevent being readily available, the incongruity is apparent.

 

[schaubj57]

Agreed. Like I said, let’s have a grown up discussion about this… shall we? Is this possible??

You want to insult me by suggesting I am not acting like an adult then want to have an adult conversation with someone who obviously doesn’t match up to you?

Unbelievable.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

No problem between Lester and me, Arizona.

As you can see from my other posts, I want the laws to be more stringent.

I’m just saying that the concepts behind the present laws are losing their persuasive force, becauses they are chiefly the products of a moral consensus that no longer prevails.

There are powerful, well financed interests that will continue to expose the gap between reality and the law to undermine it. I predict success over time.

In a time when most 18 year olds were not sexually active, the laws made a certain intuitive sense. In a time when most 18 year olds are sexually active, they do not.

When a judge strikes down any attempt to suppress the pornography of 18 year olds who are a day over 18, and then sentences a young man to life in prison for having child pornography that the law does next to nothing to prevent being readily available, the incongruity is apparent.

I’d certainly agree that the laws should be more stringent, and you have a good point: the moral consensus between many laws based on morality has fallen apart, as many deny there can be any moral consensus in a society that is increasingly materialist and relativistic.

I think there is still a strong moral consensus in this society against child pornography, however. With the increasing sexualization of the young in popular culture, that may not be the case in the future. There are times when I feel glad I’m too old to see what the worst of the future will hold.

 

[Debora123]

You want to insult me by suggesting I am not acting like an adult then want to have an adult conversation with someone who obviously doesn’t match up to you?

Unbelievable.

I’ll take that as a no.

 

[JimG]

I haven’t read the book, but what are your alternatives to the system we have now?

The testimony of witnesses, including expert witnesses, and being judged by a jury of your peers or a judge (your choice) may not be foolproof, but do you have a better system in mind, Jim?

No, I don’t have a better system in mind, but I would like to see the current one work better in some cases. It’s not acceptable to send the innocent to prison. Rabinowitz’s book concerns child sexual abuse, not child porn, so it’s not entirely pertinent to this thread. Still, the cases she recounts—and not all involved children, raise serious questions about police and prosecutorial actions in these types of cases. I certainly hope that investigation standards have improved. But one still hears of cases like that of Fr. Gordon MacRae, also told by Rabinowitz, or the Norfolk Four (where police extracted confessions from innocent men).

Whenever I’ve been called to jury duty, the main concerns I have are all the things that the jury will never hear about the case, because one party or another managed to exclude it, or how much brow beating went on to obtain the evidence presented, or whether evidence was selectively excluded.

 

[pnewton]

How would “Innocent beyond a reasonable doubt” work?

I worded it backwords. I had two phrases mixing in my head and mixed them up. Guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The supposed burden of proof we already have, but it does not seem to apply in some crimes. I feel that too often juries place a higher priority on protecting innocent children than protecting an innocent adult and resort to a de facto preponderance of guilt. I have no solution. Waterboarding, maybe?

 

[pnewton]

My statement is based off of the teachings of Jesus. Matthew 18:6 is one such verse I base my statment off of. Certainly a child who is abused and molested loses faith thatt God is real. In that verse also states it is better for the one who causes a child to lose faith in God to have never been born at all or certainly never come into the presence of God. I have to believe that those who harma child will most certainly have a difficult time in the after life.

Do you not believe in the mercy of God and forgiveness of sins, or do you think some sins are beyond his mercy?

I am reminded of something that Peter Kreeft said on the battle against evil. Those who we often call evil are really just patients in the hospital. This needs to be remembered. As Catholics, we are to never forget the mercy of God extends to the greatest sinners. St. Paul said he was the chief sinner, yet he became a great saint. I doubt he had a difficult time in the afterlife.

This is not to say that these “patients” should not be hospitalized for a long time.

 

[pnewton]

I’ll take that as a no.

I freely admit to having changed my postion often here, as I have not only posted, but read and pondered what others have said. This is not a game of Gotcha.

 

[Debora123]

I freely admit to having changed my postion often here, as I have not only posted, but read and pondered what others have said. This is not a game of Gotcha.

Haha. I think some people just misunderstood my position. I never thought the man from the article should get life in prison. I merely challenged a poster’s claim that viewing child porn was the same thing as molesting a child, by comparing it to viewing regular porn.

…To which this poster got extremely defensive for some reason.

 

[pnewton]

Haha. I think some people just misunderstood my position. I never thought the man from the article should get life in prison. I merely challenged a poster’s claim that viewing child porn was the same thing as molesting a child, by comparing it to viewing regular porn.

It is not uncommon for a position of a poster here to appear inconsistency on the basis of the reader. Some here tend to define every topic as a monolithic for or against, without considering that in complex topics, most will agree with part and disagree with part. That is why I particularly like the reminder that needs to keep popping up that no one is supporting child pornography, pornography, adultery, or any other sin.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Haha. I think some people just misunderstood my position. I never thought the man from the article should get life in prison. I merely challenged a poster’s claim that viewing child porn was the same thing as molesting a child, by comparing it to viewing regular porn.

…To which this poster got extremely defensive for some reason.

I don’t really agree.

It is abnormal to watch a child being abused and find that entertaining. The fact that a person can watch and not feel revulsion over the rape of a child, is evidence of being mentally disturbed.

Sociopaths don’t feel empathy. I don’t think a person watching a child being raped feels empathy for that child. There’s already something “wrong” for the lack of a better word.

I would never trust a child porn user around children. Never.

A man who reads playboy on occasion could on the other hand might never fathom hurting a child or watching a child get hurt.

 

[Debora123]

It is not uncommon for a position of a poster here to appear inconsistency on the basis of the reader. Some here tend to define every topic as a monolithic for or against, without considering that in complex topics, most will agree with part and disagree with part. That is why I particularly like the reminder that needs to keep popping up that no one is supporting child pornography, pornography, adultery, or any other sin.

Very true.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t really agree.

It is abnormal to watch a child being abused and find that entertaining. The fact that a person can watch and not feel revulsion over the rape of a child, is evidence of being mentally disturbed.

Sociopaths don’t feel empathy. I don’t think a person watching a child being raped feels empathy for that child. There’s already something “wrong” for the lack of a better word.

I would never trust a child porn user around children. Never.

A man who reads playboy on occasion could on the other hand might never fathom hurting a child or watching a child get hurt.

True. Though we have to keep in mind that not all child porn is the child being raped, just as not all adult porn out there is the people engaging in intercourse (playboy being one of them). Not that I have any idea, but I’m willing to bet MOST child porn out there is actually not.

…And likewise, there are plenty of regular porn out there that are violent and abusive towards women.

(Though I still don’t think you quite understood the point I was trying to make when I compared the 2 a few pages back. I was not trying to say a guy who looks at porn would be ok with children being raped.)

 

[Jonatello]

i haven’t read through every page here, but has anyone brought up the issue of possibly not knowing about everything on one’s own computer?

i doubt the average person combs through every obscure looking folder

i doubt the average person is aware of half the things they contract (especially if they use windows)

i’m pretty sure the average person lets others use their computer from time to time

i know for a fact you can stumble into porn online without even looking for it

i’m pretty sure it would be pretty easy for some malicious people to set up a site or virus that downloads child porn into a secret folder on your computer

then what? you have to hunt down the source and prove it wasn’t your intention or you go to jail for life?

we all know innocent-until-proven guilty is taken less seriously the more sensational/disgusting the allegations are in this society.

Nancy Grace would be rallying the pitchforks on you lol

 

[Warrenton]

I think there is still a strong moral consensus in this society against child pornography, however. With the increasing sexualization of the young in popular culture, that may not be the case in the future. There are times when I feel glad I’m too old to see what the worst of the future will hold.

You expressed my concern perfectly.

I’m not trying to make a martyr out of the defendant in this case or minimize his crimes, or argue that he is entitled to a free pass.

My concern (apart -and second in importance to proportionality, which we discussed) is that as porn of all varieties becomes more and more prevelent, more and more open, more and more socially accepted, the vendors will hold up cases like this and say to the masses “look what one little mistake, one erroneous keystroke, one moment of weakness could mean to you.” Then they will argue since young people are doing it anyway, why should the laws be so harsh?

The result will be that the ages will be pushed back, the penalties relaxed, and as Deb said, more and women and girls will be consumed in the industry. This is not to say the effect on the nation’s men is not grave also.

When I see cases like this, I can’t help thinking the government is trying to create the appearance of action when in reality, it is watching passively while a vital part of our public morality gets destroyed. It’s rather like the “Super Committee” sitting in a capital office dithering over a million dollars here and there while the economy collapses under a load of debt that will soon be impossible to discharge through tax revenue.

 

[Warrenton]

i haven’t read through every page here, but has anyone brought up the issue of possibly not knowing about everything on one’s own computer?

The article did not go into detail how the prosecution proved its case. I think the discussion has been based on the assumption that he knew what he did and that he knew it was wrong.

 

[Warrior1979]

i haven’t read through every page here, but has anyone brought up the issue of possibly not knowing about everything on one’s own computer?

FWIW, I have read about people’s computer’s being hacked an being used as a server for this type of thing. There was a case I remember from a few years ago where a teenager was arrested for possession, claimed he knew nothing about this, and was eventually able to prove his case. This is one of the reasons I don’t various peer-to-peer applications; it’s an invitation to this type of occurrence.