a little confused

[5Loaves]

The richness of how we celebrate the liturgical year in the Eastern Churches is generally so much greater than in most Roman rite parishes. I hope you can find a way to engage in the Feasts as celebrated in the East. When my teeny ECC Church, Russian, doesn’t have festal vigils, vespers or even DL on a feast day I go a Russian Orthodox church. Both the ECC and Orthodox parishes are an hour from my home. I occassionally go to a Greek Orthodox parish very near by when the two Russian churches are not an option. It makes a huge difference for me to take part in the Feasts at that level.

On thing you might consider is looking for a local bi-ritual priest as a spiritual father if there is no ECC close enough to work with their priest for guidance. You could contact the episcopal vicar for priests for your diocese. He should know if there are bi-ritual priests near by.

Do you feel you were well catechized in your Orthodox experience? If not there are many on line resources to further explore the riches of the East. Personally I really love Catherine Alexander’s interviews with the monks of Holy Resurrection Romanian Catholic Monastery. If you click on the “more info” it opens up the section that will tell you what questions she asks in each of the segments.

Father Loya talks about how in the East we have a sort of bell curve in celebrating our Feasts, with the preparations leading up to the Feast day, the Feast itself, and then the post feast. There is some of this with Advent, Lent and Pentecost in the West but really it’s so limited. You can hear Fr. Loya, and others, talk more about Feasts in the East here.

We begin Philip’s Fast/Nativity Fast on Sunday.

 

[Hesychios]

Eucharisted;5927349:

… since you are a member of a Latin rite church, you are now a Latin rite Catholic. .

Canon law says otherwise.

One has to actually request change of enrollment.

Of course you are correct in your response to Monica.

To me, this seems both impractical and unrealistic.

If one has adopted western spirituality and worships in a Latin way, the whole “canonical enrollment” concept is irrelevant. It is clear that the individual has undergone a conversion of some sort and does not identify with this label imposed upon them “by the books”.

Most of the people who have made this transition (and there have been many, probably in the hundreds of thousands at least) are not even aware enough to ask the questions that Monica4316 has asked. And expecting these many thousands to follow the calendar of another church is very unrealistic. They don’t do it and won’t lose any sleep over it.

So in a sense, I can understand why Eucharisted posted what he did. It may not be the textbook answer but his position makes perfect sense, and in perhaps 95% of those case where EC families start worshiping in the Latin church they simply don’t realize that they have obligations to their old church’s disciplines (missing fasts and days of obligation). They won’t ask for a dispensation nor a transfer, they will continue to present themselves for communion and no one will hold it against them.

In practical terms, one can also simply request dispensation to practice as a latin from the relevant eastern bishop, but if one does not intend to return to eastern praxis, it’s better (in the long run) to make the canonical transfer.

I think that the dispensation would be quickly approved.

The bishop knows he will never get these people back by playing hardball. If he is gracious about it they might be curious enough to stop in while traveling on vacation or for a major holiday.

 

[5Loaves]

That’s right.

It is in the CCEO that a Vespers can satisfy a Sunday “obligation” (apparently in any of the EC particular churches), but I am not sure why. The CCEO was crafted as a “one size fits all” code of Canons for the Eastern Catholic churches, so there is apparently some melding of traditions going on. Still, I do not know of any EO nor OO church which does this. If anyone else knows which one I would be interested to see.

It is possible that the CCEO came out of the Vatican with this little bit to correspond with the anticipated Mass in the Latin rite, but that does not make much sense.

The whole “obligation” idea is of course very Latin, not Eastern. In general the CCEO gives a kind of umbrella canon followed by “according to the norm of particular law of his own Church sui iuris”. Because of that “according to the norm of particular law of his own Church sui iuris” I think it isn’t really one size fits all. (I could ask for the pertinent CCEO section when I have CIC Canon Law class this Sat. The class only covers certain topics and doesn’t include SACRED TIMES where the “obligation” is addressed in the CIC. Let us know if you have a CCEO reference number.)

 

[Hesychios]

Hi!

. (Let us know if you have a CCEO reference number.)

I sold my copy of the CCEO before I moved (for a pittance!).

I have not looked at it online nor offline for a long time now so I probably will not find the relevant canon very quickly. Perhaps someone else can find it.

 

[Monica4316]

Thanks for all your replies

I still don’t know what to do… I emailed a priest about this and I’ll see what he says. I think that if it’s possible for me to fulfill the days of obligation in a Latin rite church, it wouldn’t be too much of a problem for me to stay Eastern and just follow the fasts and days of obligation (but by going to Mass not DL). However, this might be difficult if they’re on weekdays cause I can’t generally make it to church on weekdays

and that is pretty upsetting to me to be honest. I want to be a faithful Catholic… and if I’m Eastern but practicing Latin, I’m afraid I wont be “fully” either… I won’t be able to go to an Eastern Catholic liturgy, but I won’t be really Latin either… this just upsets me. That’s why I thought of getting a dispensation or a transfer, because then at least I can commit to one rite… I like both of them equally but I have to say my approach to spirituality, etc, is very much ‘Western’. (even though I was baptized Orthodox… I came to the Church through the Latin rite.)

I’m going to try and perhaps ask the Bishop…

I have two more questions, I’m sorry

I became Catholic on Easter (2009) and since then I haven’t followed the Eastern fasts nor days of obligation. I didn’t really realize I was supposed to, but I think I should have tried to find out sooner. Well… my question is, have I been sinning? am I excommunicated from the Church because of this? (I hope not ). What does it take to be excommunicated from the Eastern rites… is it just missing the 1 Communion / year? I’m kind of wondering what i should do… I feel like I haven’t been a faithful Catholic for this reason… but I tried hard to be a faithful Roman Catholic. (cause I thought I was that.) Should I say this in Confession?

my second question is, until I get the dispensation/transfer, or - if I don’t manage to get either of them - should I now follow the Eastern fasts and days of obligation? If so, how would I find out what they are? Do Eastern Catholics follow the same calendar etc as the Eastern Orthodox? the Russian Orthodox church where I was baptized follows a different calendar, their Christmas is on January 7th… if I have to go to a Catholic church on that day to fulfil my obligation, I won’t be able to, cause I’ll be in the EO church with my family. See that’s what I mean all this makes things very difficult for me… I’ll still try to follow it, out of obedience to the Church, but if it’s at all possible to get a transfer I’d prefer that.

I think that some Orthodox who become Catholic just want to be in communion with the Pope… so they keep all their old traditions/liturgies/etc. But with me, I never really practiced my Eastern Orthodox faith, and for most of that time I was an agnostic and my family only went to church sometimes. So although I love the Eastern traditions, the Latin rite ones are more familiar to me.

Thanks again…

God bless

 

[dans0622]

Hello,

I am not an expert in Eastern Law. But, just to provide some relevant canons from the Eastern Code:

Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
§2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
§3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
§4. …

Canon 882 - On the days of penance the Christian faithful are obliged to observe fast or abstinence in the manner established by the particular law of their Church sui iuris.

Canon 883 - §1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.
§2. …

For you, Monica4316, I think the last canon is most important. You are outside the territory of your own Church (Russian Catholic). Sure, there may be a Russian Catholic parish somewhere in your state or region but this notion of “territorial boundaries” refers to the original/traditional territory of the Church sui iuris. So, you can fulfill all of your obligations regarding fasting and feasting by adopting the Latin laws of your territory.

And, no, you have not been excommunicated. There are no automatic excommunications in the Eastern Law. So, the only people who are excommunicated know it.

Now, there may be particular law that is different for you. And, maybe I am reading the universal law incorrectly. If I am mistaken in any way, I hope someone will correct me.

Dan

 

[Monica4316]

Hello,

I am not an expert in Eastern Law. But, just to provide some relevant canons from the Eastern Code:

Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
§2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
§3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
§4. …

Canon 882 - On the days of penance the Christian faithful are obliged to observe fast or abstinence in the manner established by the particular law of their Church sui iuris.

Canon 883 - §1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.
§2. …

For you, Monica4316, I think the last canon is most important. You are outside the territory of your own Church (Russian Catholic). Sure, there may be a Russian Catholic parish somewhere in your state or region but this notion of “territorial boundaries” refers to the original/traditional territory of the Church sui iuris. So, you can fulfill all of your obligations regarding fasting and feasting by adopting the Latin laws of your territory.

And, no, you have not been excommunicated. There are no automatic excommunications in the Eastern Law. So, the only people who are excommunicated know it.

Now, there may be particular law that is different for you. And, maybe I am reading the universal law incorrectly. If I am mistaken in any way, I hope someone will correct me.

Dan

Thank you Dan! I’m going to find out for sure, but this definitely helps!

God bless

 

[Aramis]

Thanks for all your replies

I still don’t know what to do… I emailed a priest about this and I’ll see what he says. I think that if it’s possible for me to fulfill the days of obligation in a Latin rite church, it wouldn’t be too much of a problem for me to stay Eastern and just follow the fasts and days of obligation (but by going to Mass not DL). However, this might be difficult if they’re on weekdays cause I can’t generally make it to church on weekdays

and that is pretty upsetting to me to be honest. I want to be a faithful Catholic… and if I’m Eastern but practicing Latin, I’m afraid I wont be “fully” either… I won’t be able to go to an Eastern Catholic liturgy, but I won’t be really Latin either… this just upsets me. That’s why I thought of getting a dispensation or a transfer, because then at least I can commit to one rite… I like both of them equally but I have to say my approach to spirituality, etc, is very much ‘Western’. (even though I was baptized Orthodox… I came to the Church through the Latin rite.)

I’m going to try and perhaps ask the Bishop…

I have two more questions, I’m sorry

I became Catholic on Easter (2009) and since then I haven’t followed the Eastern fasts nor days of obligation. I didn’t really realize I was supposed to, but I think I should have tried to find out sooner. Well… my question is, have I been sinning? am I excommunicated from the Church because of this? (I hope not ). What does it take to be excommunicated from the Eastern rites… is it just missing the 1 Communion / year? I’m kind of wondering what i should do… I feel like I haven’t been a faithful Catholic for this reason… but I tried hard to be a faithful Roman Catholic. (cause I thought I was that.) Should I say this in Confession?

my second question is, until I get the dispensation/transfer, or - if I don’t manage to get either of them - should I now follow the Eastern fasts and days of obligation? If so, how would I find out what they are? Do Eastern Catholics follow the same calendar etc as the Eastern Orthodox? the Russian Orthodox church where I was baptized follows a different calendar, their Christmas is on January 7th… if I have to go to a Catholic church on that day to fulfil my obligation, I won’t be able to, cause I’ll be in the EO church with my family. See that’s what I mean all this makes things very difficult for me… I’ll still try to follow it, out of obedience to the Church, but if it’s at all possible to get a transfer I’d prefer that.

I think that some Orthodox who become Catholic just want to be in communion with the Pope… so they keep all their old traditions/liturgies/etc. But with me, I never really practiced my Eastern Orthodox faith, and for most of that time I was an agnostic and my family only went to church sometimes. So although I love the Eastern traditions, the Latin rite ones are more familiar to me.

Thanks again…

God bless

I can’t say if you in particular have been sinning, bu I can say that you have, in ignorance, failed to meet an obligation. Thing is, per the CCC (and the CIC and CCEO), to actually have committed a mortal sin, one must have willfully and knowingly engaged in grave matter behaviors. So if you have, it’s not a mortal sin, and it’s not one of the ones listed for excommunication.

The Russian Catholic Church does follow the same calendar as the Russian Synod; you are, by having been RO, a Russian Catholic.

Simply add it to your next confession.

Any of the obligations can be met in any Catholic (or for that matter, Orthodox) parish. The only one you’ve likely missed is Jan 6 and the fasts. (You have been communed at least once in the Advent-Christmas cycle, and once in the Lent-Pentecost cycle, yes?)

All the rest of it, you’ve met simply by latin praxis.

Me, I’m canonically still Roman; The only thing I have to do that isn’t met in the Byzantine praxis is make it to a divine worship service on Jan 1. And that’s gonna change, soon, too. (Except that I’ve a verbal dispensation from my Roman Bishop already… it helps that I’m a deacon’s son.)

 

[Monica4316]

I can’t say if you in particular have been sinning, bu I can say that you have, in ignorance, failed to meet an obligation. Thing is, per the CCC (and the CIC and CCEO), to actually have committed a mortal sin, one must have willfully and knowingly engaged in grave matter behaviors. So if you have, it’s not a mortal sin, and it’s not one of the ones listed for excommunication.

The Russian Catholic Church does follow the same calendar as the Russian Synod; you are, by having been RO, a Russian Catholic.

Simply add it to your next confession.

Any of the obligations can be met in any Catholic (or for that matter, Orthodox) parish. The only one you’ve likely missed is Jan 6 and the fasts. (You have been communed at least once in the Advent-Christmas cycle, and once in the Lent-Pentecost cycle, yes?)

All the rest of it, you’ve met simply by latin praxis.

Me, I’m canonically still Roman; The only thing I have to do that isn’t met in the Byzantine praxis is make it to a divine worship service on Jan 1. And that’s gonna change, soon, too. (Except that I’ve a verbal dispensation from my Roman Bishop already… it helps that I’m a deacon’s son.)

thanks

I just became Catholic this Easter… in 2009… so I don’t know what I’ve missed, but there might be something. I go to Mass on Sundays and receive the Eucharist… I’ve never been to Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic parish.

God bless

 

[Aramis]

thanks

I just became Catholic this Easter… in 2009… so I don’t know what I’ve missed, but there might be something. I go to Mass on Sundays and receive the Eucharist… I’ve never been to Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic parish.

God bless

Sounds like only Apostle’s fast and Dormition Fast.

There is no requirement to attend a parish of one’s own rite; only to observer the traditions of one’s own rite.

 

[5Loaves]

I am not an expert in Eastern Law. But, just to provide some relevant canons from the Eastern Code:…

Canon 883 - §1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.
§2. …

For you, Monica4316, I think the last canon is most important. You are outside the territory of your own Church (Russian Catholic). Sure, there may be a Russian Catholic parish somewhere in your state or region but this notion of “territorial boundaries” refers to the original/traditional territory of the Church sui iuris. So, you can fulfill all of your obligations regarding fasting and feasting by adopting the Latin laws of your territory.

Dan

I did ask my canon law teacher about this today after class. He said you have understood this correctly, Dan- when living where one cannot participate in one’s own Church sui iuris then one can abide by “the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.” and “where they are staying” would be their home (in OP’s case Roman rite) parish.

 

[5Loaves]

(even though I was baptized Orthodox… I came to the Church through the Latin rite.)

if I have to go to a Catholic church on that day to fulfil my obligation, I won’t be able to, cause I’ll be in the EO church with my family. See that’s what I mean all this makes things very difficult for me… I’ll still try to follow it, out of obedience to the Church, but if it’s at all possible to get a transfer I’d prefer that.

But with me, I never really practiced my Eastern Orthodox faith, and for most of that time I was an agnostic and my family only went to church sometimes. So although I love the Eastern traditions, the Latin rite ones are more familiar to me.

Russians Catholics are somewhat unique in that we are very few with only three parishes in the US. We don’t have a patriarch. Our parishes are under the local Ordinary, Latin Church Bishop. I asked my canon law teacher about you desire to transfer from the Russian Catholic Church to the Latin Church. He said in your case as a Russian Catholic in the US for a change in Church you should contact the Apastolic Nuncio in DC.

You do seem to have found your home in the Latin Church. Dan has given you the relevant Eastern Canon, Canon 883 - §1 which states basically if you choose to you are free to act like a Latin since you have no local Church sui iuris. Now you’re relieved of that concern, I for one would hope you will wait on perusing a transfer.

From what you’ve said it sounds like you had minimal formation as a Russian Orthodox Christian. I do hope you’ll take advantage of the fact you’ve become concerned by these various questions to think about learning more about the Eastern sacramental liturgical world view as the Second Vatican Council and our recent Holy Fathers have so expressly exhorted all Catholics to do. And really the primary way to really learn more is to experience the liturgies.

Again, consider taking advantage of many feast days which are by and large almost ignored in the West to go to an ECC parish if there is an ECC in your area, or Orthodox parish to take part in these rich liturgies. Attending Divine Liturgy or Festal vigils etc. in an Orthodox church is in no way disapproved of by the Catholic Church. Vigils don’t have Holy Eucharist and in a DL we simply don’t go forward for Eucharist, but certainly can receive the priests blessing at the close of worship and at other times. I’m sure you know that the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox priests to have valid orders. (For example coming up, the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary 11/21, and Theophany/The Baptism of our Lord 1/6 are two wonderful feasts that Roman rite parishes tend to all but ignore when you could consider going to an ECC or Orthodox parish.)

I’m not talking about the whole “fulfill the obligation” part of it at all, but about you own journey in growing closer to God, your own theosis.

You’ve brought up so many internal conflicts you are experiencing I would again strongly encourage you to find a competent spiritual father, one very familiar with both the East and the West. The diocese ought to be able to tell you if there are bi-ritual priests near by, or priests who have lived and worked in close proximity to ECCs.

 

[Monica4316]

Thank you!

5Loaves, I don’t live near any Eastern rite parishes - I checked - nor near any Orthodox churches. All the Orthodox Christians I know have to go to other towns/cities to attend church. I’d be interested in visiting an Eastern rite parish but I don’t know how, because there are problems with transportation.

I just wanted to check that I’m understanding this correctly…

so what you’re saying is that when I became Catholic, I became a Russian Catholic. But since there is no Russian Catholic church or bishop in my area, I can follow the fasts and days of obligation of the Latin rite. But I’m still Russian Catholic? (if I wanted to transfer, would I just have to contact my Latin rite bishop? Sorry I don’t live in the US, but in Canada… )

I talked to my (Latin rite) priest yesterday and he said that I should be Roman Catholic if I converted in a Latin parish… and that’s what many people are telling me too. It does make sense to me… but then there are the canon law quotes you gave me…

when it says “Canon 35: Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus**, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite **with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.”

Im confused about the word “enrolled”… does it refer to becoming Catholic? (in which case I’d probably be Roman Catholic, since I ‘enrolled’ in a Latin rite parish, not a sui iuris church - because I couldn’t.) Or, does it refer to me being placed in the Eastern rite irregardless of where I became Catholic?

wow…

thank you for all your help

 

[Aramis]

Enrolled is which of the 23 Churches Sui Iuris you’re a member of. In your case, Russian. It has little bearing on where you practice.

If an ACROD parishioner converts, they are Ruthenian.
If a Slovak or Slovenian Orthodox converts, they are Slovakian Catholic, but in the US, they are under the Ruthenian Bishops, and in Canada, under the Ukrainian Bishops.
If an Antiochian Orthodox converts, they are automatically Melkite.

Canon law is explicit about not changing rites by simply entering the Catholic Church. Sadly, most Roman priests are either unaware of, or only minimally cognizant of, the EC Churches, let alone the CCEO and its requirements.

In the US, less than 2% are Orthodox. (In Alaska, it’s 18%… see why I’m aware of it?) Most RO converting up here are encouraged to apply for Latin Canonical Enrollment immediately. It prevents issues later should children seek to join the Roman priesthood or Roman monastic or friary orders.

Of all the Byzantines, the only ones not under the omophor of one of the EC bishops in the US are the Russians. All the other Byzantines is placed under Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Romanian, or Melkite bishops. Even Italo-Albanians (who are under the Ruthenian Church in the US).

A military parallel:
An Army soldier assigned to an Air Force Unit still is an army soldier, still wears the army uniform, and army rank, even tho he works on an Air Force Base, his bos is an air force officer, his supervisor is an air force NCO, and he lives in air force housing. Unless he formally changes service at reenlistment, he stays an army soldier. Even tho’ he gets half day off for the party on the Air Force’s birthday.

You’re still Russian. You pray at a Roman parish, your priest and bishop are roman. But, you still remain Russian. Should you enter a convent, you wear the russian style habit.

 

[Monica4316]

thanks Aramis!

would you say that this applies to me though?
Canon 883 - §1. The Christian faithful who are outside the territorial boundaries of their own Church sui iuris can adopt fully for themselves the feast days and days of penance which are in force where they are staying.

God bless

 

[Aramis]

Not knowing what diocese you’re in, Monica, I’d have to hedge on the side of “probably not.”

The person to ask is your bishop. It’s fundamentally his decision. If he happens to have a former Orthodox priest on the payroll, it might be the start of a Russian Catholic mission…

Now, if you were domociled in Ethiopia, it absolutely would (Since the presence is Ethiopian Church). Or Egypt (Coptic, Melkite). Or even Iraq (Chaldean, Maronite).

With the Russians, it’s always the bishop’s call.

 

[Monica4316]

thanks! I’ll ask my bishop… I don’t think there are any Russian Catholic churches around here though…

I read here that if a person wants to transfer to the Latin rite, they have to write to both Bishops…but if I’m Russian Catholic, I only have one Bishop, - the Latin rite one… so if I decide to transfer, do I just talk to him about it?

 

[Monica4316]

Ok…I looked, and it seems that the nearest Russian Catholic parish is in another province (I live in Canada)… wow…

I couldn’t even find it here:
orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_Catholic_Church#List_of_worldwide_Russian_Catholic_parishes

 

[Aramis]

Ok…I looked, and it seems that the nearest Russian Catholic parish is in another province (I live in Canada)… wow…

I couldn’t even find it here:
orthodoxwiki.org/Russian_Catholic_Church#List_of_worldwide_Russian_Catholic_parishes

You apply to your bishop; he’ll forward it to the Nuncio for Canada if he approves. The decision is actually made at the Nuncio’s office, unless there is something irregular.

But that’s just putting the request in writing in the bishop’s office.

 

[Monica4316]

You apply to your bishop; he’ll forward it to the Nuncio for Canada if he approves. The decision is actually made at the Nuncio’s office, unless there is something irregular.

But that’s just putting the request in writing in the bishop’s office.

thanks!