A little Confused

[Chicken_Man]

I am a fifteen year old and I just attended the sacrament of reconciliation today. I confessed that I was guilty of masturbation. The preist did not give me any (name removed by moderator)ut on this and I had a million questions. He also only gave me the penance of 5 hail mary’s and 5 our father’s. Is masturbation as a teenager not as gave as when an adult? Is it a mortal sin to masturbate?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Wow, “Chickenman” was my nickname and CB handle when I was in college.

Anyway, masturbation is not a mortal sin per se, because mortal sin requires both serious matter and certain intent. It may be a mortal sin.

Most men I know believe that those among us who do not masturbate – priests included – are very few, indeed.

To me, I have the advantage of being married, but frankly that does not mean the urge to masturbate goes away. What worked for me was a bit involuntary, but it amounts to losing the urge, or at least canceling it, rather than fighting it. This is difficult for a young person I would suspect, but it is not impossible. What I think God would want would be that we lose interest because as we embrace the gifts of our lives we will be satisfied with our current vocation and not so anxious about the future, and the urge should subside.

Alan

 

[Ruthie]

I hope you won’t be too embarrassed at getting an answer from a female…

CCC 2352 says that masturbation is “an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”

It also says that there are various factors that can lessen culpability.

CCC 1858 and 9 deal with what makes a sin mortal.

It must be a grave matter. “gravely disordered”… yep.

It must be done with full knowledge. (This is why nocturnal emissions are not sinful. You can’t help what happens when you’re asleep.)

It must be done with complete consent.

If it is so strongly habitual that you find yourself doing it without conscious choice, then the last two are mitigated. You haven’t said to yourself, “I know this is a mortal sin, and I’m going to do it anyway.”

My priest, bless his heart, told me that, in order to deal with this kind of disordered appetite, a change of heart is necessary. So that’s what I pray for. (I have a gravely disordered appetite for food.) I also try to keep it in the front of my mind that my appetite is disordered, and thus I shouldn’t eat anything more than my body needs. I…e. I sort of pretend to have a properly ordered appetite, in hopes that someday I will.

Now - look up at the very top of the page. Click on “Chastity,” and you will find help there. Also back on the list of posts, the very first one is lists of websites for battling with impurity.

You are not alone - far from it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Ruthie:

I hope you won’t be too embarrassed at getting an answer from a female…

I’m not too embarrassed to admit a female added important information to my original ideas, so if it helps, Ruthie, I second your advice.

It must be done with full knowledge. (This is why nocturnal emissions are not sinful. You can’t help what happens when you’re asleep.)

It must be done with complete consent.

If it is so strongly habitual that you find yourself doing it without conscious choice, then the last two are mitigated. You haven’t said to yourself, “I know this is a mortal sin, and I’m going to do it anyway.”

Something clicked in my head when I read this. I have been doing some “mitigation” on another topic with “nocturnal reception” I will now call it. My oldest son can sleep through mayhem, unless one particular family member (occasionally they share) is typing on the computer … it’s not like she’s typing something bad; usually it is school reports.

Anyway, I have looked into it and as of yesterday Matt has finally been able to sleep right through even a fairly critical episode of such noise.

From this I might conclude that the concept of “nocturnal” and culpability in the dream state v. awake state might actually interchange, and even if a man “dreams” about something it actually puts him into an alert state where his own mind is quiet and resting – unless it is tuned right.

This may sound like gobbledigook, but I think it’s a key factor in understanding the Church teachings on culpability in this matter. One can hardly imagine how another can deceive himself into believing he will get caught by earthly authorities, when it is realy the heavenly authorities all along that we must be concerned about. This is how it should be, and if this sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo it’s just because I’m trying to cut down on my “endless post” style. I will cheerfully field questions or disagreements, but from what I get from all this the OP has done us a great service by asking the question the way he did and Ruthie you took a stand that has added a key element to the mix.

My priest, bless his heart, told me that, in order to deal with this kind of disordered appetite, a change of heart is necessary. So that’s what I pray for. (I have a gravely disordered appetite for food.) I also try to keep it in the front of my mind that my appetite is disordered, and thus I shouldn’t eat anything more than my body needs. I…e. I sort of pretend to have a properly ordered appetite, in hopes that someday I will.

I think again it’s all about dreams v reality. Once my oldest daughter asked “Dad, why is it I consider the things in my imagination more important than thing that are real?” That question stumped me until about five seconds ago. When men and women help see each other’s piont of view without embarrassment of thinking differently, we combine efforts and chaste or married – we help each other become better members of the Body of Christ.

You are not alone - far from it.

Nor are you, Ruthie. In my un-professional opinion, all Catholics and those non-Catholics specified by the Church, are already building the Kingdom, with only time between us and our recognition of it.

Alan

 

[mercygate]

AlanFromWichita:

Anyway, masturbation is not a mortal sin per se, because mortal sin requires both serious matter and certain intent. It may be a mortal sin.

Let me make a small quibble with the way you present this, Alan. Yes: for a sin to be subjectively “mortal” 3 points must be present: serious matter, full knowledge that the matter is serious, and full intent of the will.

However, a lot of harm is done when fuzzy thinking creeps in and allows us to believe that absence of full knowledge and intent somehow lessens the gravity of the actual matter of the sin.

Masturbation is gravely sinful per se. It is only when the other two factors are absent that it becomes *subjectively *mitigated.

 

[Magicsilence]

Put it this way.

You know now it is a mortal sin.

If you were to continue to do it, I cant see a reason why it wouldnt be a mortal sin.

Now you have the knowledge you have to act on it.

And Ruthie.

One method i think that could help is to do everything more slowly. When you take that next bite, dont wolf it down. Enjoy it, realise that you are full. And dont allow your body to control you. Think about each and every action before you do it.

In Christ

Andre.

 

[Pug]

Chicken Man:

The preist did not give me any (name removed by moderator)ut on this and I had a million questions.

Hmmm. Next time pin the good father down. Say, “Father X, I’d like your advice on this matter.” Then wait. Unless he is really busy, I think you’ll at least get a few questions answered!

 

[BlindSheep]

Chicken Man:

He also only gave me the penance of 5 hail mary’s and 5 our father’s.

In my experience, this is a lot. Most Priests seem to prefer to keep the penance light, regardless of the gravity of the sins. I usually get “1 our father, 3 hail mary’s”, so I think this is the “routine” penance, in which case you got a relatively “heavy” one.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mercygate:

Let me make a small quibble with the way you present this, Alan. Yes: for a sin to be subjectively “mortal” 3 points must be present: serious matter, full knowledge that the matter is serious, and full intent of the will.

However, a lot of harm is done when fuzzy thinking creeps in and allows us to believe that absence of full knowledge and intent somehow lessens the gravity of the actual matter of the sin.

Masturbation is gravely sinful per se. It is only when the other two factors are absent that it becomes *subjectively *mitigated.

I have no practical disagreement with you. I’m not sure why you say the gravity of “the actual matter of the sin” is not changed, because it seems to presuppose that the matter is, in fact, sin.

Practical matter, whether is it a “mortal sin” is mitigated, as we do agree.

The reason I responded to make that point is that I don’t know if it makes any difference at all to a soul if the soul is not mortally guilty for lack of grave matter, or for lack of exacerbating factors.

Probably mumbo-jumbo, though, as it seems much of my posts come across as…

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Magicsilence:

Put it this way.

You know now it is a mortal sin.

If you were to continue to do it, I cant see a reason why it wouldnt be a mortal sin.

This is confusing. Why can you not see how it would be a mortal sin when we just got done discussing Church teachings to the contrary?

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

I have no practical disagreement with you. I’m not sure why you say the gravity of “the actual matter of the sin” is not changed, because it seems to presuppose that the matter is, in fact, sin.

Practical matter, whether is it a “mortal sin” is mitigated, as we do agree.

The reason I responded to make that point is that I don’t know if it makes any difference at all to a soul if the soul is not mortally guilty for lack of grave matter, or for lack of exacerbating factors.

Probably mumbo-jumbo, though, as it seems much of my posts come across as…

Alan

Hi there Alan, thought I would have a try at the subject matter…

If one holds that anything is grave matter, then it becomes grave matter for that person. Obviously for example a child discovering for the first time masturbation but having no concept at all that it is grave matter is not indulging in grave matter for that child. While the matter does remain objectively grave matter but subjectively in the child not so. Does this child need to be led to an understanding that it is grave matter. Yes, as this involves rightful formation of the conscience. Once the child comprehends that masturbation is grave matter then it becomes grave matter for the child. The child has moved to full knowledge of what is grave matter. As to full consent of the will, in many cases this can be impossible to discern and needs be left to God. Perhaps indeed only a theologian psychologist could approximate insight of the full consent of the will or a lacking of it.
It goes without saying that in the case of a child for example, the degree of self control will not be as marked as after a growth in self control.

Am I in a state of mortal sin can be difficult to discern, hence it is always perhaps the best move to presuppose that if grave matter is involved to subject the matter to confession for the purpose of a peaceful conscience, which is a presupposition that I insight the value of sacramental confession.

Where grave matter is concerned, I may put up quite a struggle against temptation, quite a struggle, but fall anyway…all sorts of circumstances could come into play and including the unconscious…is this full consent of the will? Hard to discern except perhaps for as I said a theologian psychologist. While such may be able to assess for the purposes of some humanly speaking purposes, judgement remains The Lord’s and His alone. “Much is forgiven her because she has loved much”…one insights in this statement that the overall state of a soul can mitigate a matter and indeed draw complete pardon independant of all except God. Also “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” - in other words while I may need resort to my own or another’s human and finite assessment for some purpose - judgement is not mine to pass nor by any human on any level. To state categorically that another is in the state of mortal sin is a judgement in that mortal sin by its very nature is an indication that the soul is condemned.

We need also to recall “much is expected, because much has been granted”. In other words, much more is expected of those gifted than of those lesser gifted as it were.

To lift any matter out of the context of God’s Loving Mercy and Understanding is to take upon oneself what is outside of one’s possibilities. God’s Love, Mercy and Understanding remains totally inscrutable and a free gift wherever He Wills…simply because only He can read the human heart to its absolute full extent. My own very real and active hope is that every one and without exemption shall remain within the overshadowing of His Love, Mercy and Understanding. For I am convinced that if I insighted truly the full identity of even minor faults in me I would be grieved almost beyond comforting - but I do not…and we do not.

If I do not insight the value of sacramental confession, quite doubtless addressing God in repentance suffices and one would hope that in such a person repentance directed to God alone would result in a peaceful conscience.

My take on the matter…while the purpose of discussion of any matter is precisely to discuss and in the exchanges to hopefully arrive at something closer to the truth of matters. My own assessment of the subject matter hence remains entirely fallible on the part of a fallible.

Regards - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Alan…
In my un-professional opinion, all Catholics and those non-Catholics specified by the Church, are already building the Kingdom, with only time between us and our recognition of it.

I agree with you Alan…perhaps problems can creep in when I presuppose that I know what The Kindom should look like and work towards an image in my mind (imagination)…attempting to force circumstances etc. to that imaginary point (pushing my own agenda and we all do this, or I do rather, to some degree or other - and a missing the mark!)***…rather than a listening to The Lord in the unfolding holding I do not know what The Kingdom finally will appear ‘like’ nor what it ‘should be’ at any given point. And true…a walk in the darkness. “I do not ask to see the road ahead, one step enough for me” (Divine Office)…in other words and somewhat long winded…I totally agree

that we are already building the Kingdom, with only time betweeen us and our recognition of it

whenever The Lord brings that sight into being…as you said …

Happy Christmas Alan and all…Barbhttp://bestsmileys.com/christmas5/8.gif
*** “Sin” is drawn from Greek meaning 'to miss the mark". It does beg a question: “What IS my mark or what am I aiming for?”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

.perhaps problems can creep in when I presuppose that I know what The Kindom should look like and work towards an image in my mind (imagination)…attempting to force circumstances etc. to that imaginary point (pushing my own agenda and we all do this, or I do rather, to some degree or other - and a missing the mark!)***…

According to my “calculated” efforts, I imagine that the mind has to be a certain degree holographic to connect such things in the myriad ways required.

Therefore, each person has a perception of the present based on the past, the person’s DNA and other (both nature and nurture) factors, and their past, creates the current state of mind. When mixed with incoming information from senses, it creates the unique awareness and tendencies toward which a soul is motivated. This soul, like the Church itself, has a free will choice to hold bound or loose its own memories and perception, according to whatever standards exist in that one’s perception.

In other words, in my imaginary world based on my interpretation of scriptures, everybody gets to have their own vision as they do now, but each person will spontaneously “assimilate” into the groupthink that everything is basically OK. Things have to be not “perfect” or we have no reason to exist to do anything, for doing things is to change things. However, we can each in our own way process our past and present (and future, if you include imagination in the mix) such that we judge not – not necessarily by balancing good and evil but refusing to apply personal standards other than as good information help point to the next step on the path to perfection.

Again, everybody gets to have an individual look at the same reality, but comes to the same conclusion (we are all ok) based on connecting, assembling, or processing their own images, metaphors, and life experiences. It is the commonalities we share and the differences we exhibit that keep life relationship often on cycles.

To me, therefore, the objective standard the Church uses for what constitutes grave matter (I think of “grave” as serious, dead, peaceful, predictable, and “matter” as material or something that matters to me) is offset by the subjectively applicable standards on intent. If a soul knows its intent, then it – or God if the soul doesn’t – then for it the intent is objective while the connection of that soul to the physical world would seem to need to be subjective. Either way, from the point of view of the Church, a person’s mind, or a person’s soul, it seems there would be both an objective and a subjective component.

Alan

 

[mercygate]

AlanFromWichita:

I have no practical disagreement with you. I’m not sure why you say the gravity of “the actual matter of the sin” is not changed, because it seems to presuppose that the matter is, in fact, sin.

Practical matter, whether is it a “mortal sin” is mitigated, as we do agree.

The reason I responded to make that point is that I don’t know if it makes any difference at all to a soul if the soul is not mortally guilty for lack of grave matter, or for lack of exacerbating factors.

Probably mumbo-jumbo, though, as it seems much of my posts come across as…

Alan

Alan – all I meant that a sin is a sin is a sin – whether or not we understand it to be. This is attested in Paul’s Epistle to the Romans when he claims that because God reveals essential truths via creation itself, people have no excuse for not knowing right from wrong, even without divine revelation (Rom 1:14-32). All I am campaigning for is a recognition that grave matter is grave, objectively taken, and its gravity is not determined by my understanding it to be. My culpability is mitigated by a faulty understanding but not the actual gravity of the matter taken in itself.

When I drive over the speed limit and kill somebody because I can’t stop my car in time to avoid hitting him, it does not matter objectively that I was speeding because I didn’t see the speed- limit sign at 45 and I was driving 65. The poor victim is still dead. My culpability would be mitigated by my error but not the gravity of the actual death. If I had seen the speed limit sign and ignored it because I felt my own judgment superior to the posted limit, then my culpability would be greater.

AlanFromWichita:

The reason I responded to make that point is that I don’t know if it makes any difference at all to a soul if the soul is not mortally guilty for lack of grave matter, or for lack of exacerbating factors.

The point where the practical difference comes into play is the point at which one is responsible for the formation of his own conscience.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

According to my “calculated” efforts, I imagine that the mind has to be a certain degree holographic to connect such things in the myriad ways required.

Therefore, each person has a perception of the present based on the past, the person’s DNA and other (both nature and nurture) factors, and their past, creates the current state of mind. When mixed with incoming information from senses, it creates the unique awareness and tendencies toward which a soul is motivated. This soul, like the Church itself, has a free will choice to hold bound or loose its own memories and perception, according to whatever standards exist in that one’s perception.

In other words, in my imaginary world based on my interpretation of scriptures, everybody gets to have their own vision as they do now, but each person will spontaneously “assimilate” into the groupthink that everything is basically OK. Things have to be not “perfect” or we have no reason to exist to do anything, for doing things is to change things. However, we can each in our own way process our past and present (and future, if you include imagination in the mix) such that we judge not – not necessarily by balancing good and evil but refusing to apply personal standards other than as good information help point to the next step on the path to perfection.

Again, everybody gets to have an individual look at the same reality, but comes to the same conclusion (we are all ok) based on connecting, assembling, or processing their own images, metaphors, and life experiences. It is the commonalities we share and the differences we exhibit that keep life relationship often on cycles.

To me, therefore, the objective standard the Church uses for what constitutes grave matter (I think of “grave” as serious, dead, peaceful, predictable, and “matter” as material or something that matters to me) is offset by the subjectively applicable standards on intent. If a soul knows its intent, then it – or God if the soul doesn’t – then for it the intent is objective while the connection of that soul to the physical world would seem to need to be subjective. Either way, from the point of view of the Church, a person’s mind, or a person’s soul, it seems there would be both an objective and a subjective component.

Alan

He there Alan…I find it very hard to follow your train of thought at times…simply because your intelligence transcends mine by far!

If I have read you correctly, I concur that each of us really lives in a world of our own, but not fully of our own creating…it is in the coming together in unity and peace of all these worlds of the all that The Kingdom is perhaps approximated.

The point I had been trying to make is that at times we can develop an imaginary image of what The Kingdom is or should be like and then we work towards that image…which after all is only imaginary. And yet in the very saying of that concept, it is precisely what I have done in paragraph two above.

Undoubtedly and in Hope and Faith we are moving towards The Kingdom which will be defined by Charity. And even this is an imaginary concept or image fashioned by the imagination.

Forgive me Alan if I have misinterpreted you and write it off to just being Barb getting things upside down and inside out again!:whacky:

Send regards Alan…Barb:whacky:

 

[BryPGuy89]

Chicken Man:

I am a fifteen year old and I just attended the sacrament of reconciliation today. I confessed that I was guilty of masturbation. The preist did not give me any (name removed by moderator)ut on this and I had a million questions. He also only gave me the penance of 5 hail mary’s and 5 our father’s. Is masturbation as a teenager not as gave as when an adult? Is it a mortal sin to masturbate?

I’m sixteen and I aspire to be clergy some day and so I often study many ranges of church doctrin. I have come to understand that masturbation is always wrong, age makes no difference. Masturbation is to fall into the catagory of lust. One of the seven deadly sins. It is a mortal sin to fall to temptation and repentence and abstinence should be your goal.

 

[stbruno]

sexrespect.com/sevencs.html

Dr.Colleen Mast who is on Catholic radio has a wonderful link to her website. Why not check it out. This one actually was written for someone younger than you but her website also provides more information for teens. Keep praying on it.

Like any bad habit which is also a sin, it takes extra grace to rid ourselves of it. Don’t be defeated if you sometimes slip up. Anything is possible with the help of God. When you feel tempted, distract yourselves…literally get up from what you were planning to do and do something completely different, like take a walk, call a friend etc…but do something, get yourself away from the temptation.

When we say the Lord’s prayer, we say “lead us not into temptation…” well it also means that I will move away from any opportunity for the temptation to attack."

A person who wants to diet…doesn’t buy chips and dip and leave them in plain view, does he? Of course not. Pray always and before you know it, you will have developed a good habit.