A little disappointed

[Chevaleresse]

I’ve been reading the forums for a few weeks now, and was especially disappointed when I came across this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=678571. I signed up just so I can address this issue. I must be honest: I simply cannot believe some of the modernist permissiveness attempting to disguise itself as level-headed Catholic/Christian wisdom here. When I read through these forums, I’m getting more and more embarrassed to be Catholic; these views and attitudes I see are pathetic. People seem to revel in weakness when we should aspire to strength; I constantly see successful self-defeat. It makes me jealous of my Mormon friends who strive to much greater lengths to be virtuous.

I looked forward to being the best wife possible; a person of good character who has practiced self-restraint and self-control my entire life and would gladly (I mean this) recite everything I’ve ever done from day one until the present moment and welcome any and all judgement. “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? Go right ahead.

So why are good people told to give up in their search for an ideal spouse (as in the above thread)? I think the cynicism found here (and elsewhere) makes people weaker and the chances of myself and others finding a good husband smaller. Why is it that living an unchaste life is forgiven (yes, as it should be) but living a chaste life (and being serious about it) is somehow judgmental and bad? Why is someone who values virtue held in low regard? Why is every amount of discouragement to be virtuous that is present in the wider culture present here? Why am I unable to tell the difference (mostly with this topic) between a Catholic forum and one that is entirely “of the world”? I would expect some posters to stand up for virtue in a public forum, but for a similar percentage (or less) on forum like this?

I am angered, saddened, and completely bewildered at how people on a Catholic forum treat chastity (and other virtues, too) so lightly; we have truly, truly lost the culture war. If immorality and bad character can be accepted as normal and a matter of course, even here, I honestly wish I were dead.

 

[finisterra]

I’ve been reading the forums for a few weeks now, and was especially disappointed when I came across this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=678571. I signed up just so I can address this issue. I must be honest: I simply cannot believe some of the modernist permissiveness attempting to disguise itself as level-headed Catholic/Christian wisdom here. When I read through these forums, I’m getting more and more embarrassed to be Catholic; these views and attitudes I see are pathetic. People seem to revel in weakness when we should aspire to strength; I constantly see successful self-defeat. It makes me jealous of my Mormon friends who strive to much greater lengths to be virtuous.

I looked forward to being the best wife possible; a person of good character who has practiced self-restraint and self-control my entire life and would gladly (I mean this) recite everything I’ve ever done from day one until the present moment and welcome any and all judgement. “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? Go right ahead.

So why are good people told to give up in their search for an ideal spouse (as in the above thread)? I think the cynicism found here (and elsewhere) makes people weaker and the chances of myself and others finding a good husband smaller. Why is it that living an unchaste life is forgiven (yes, as it should be) but living a chaste life (and being serious about it) is somehow judgmental and bad? Why is someone who values virtue held in low regard? Why is every amount of discouragement to be virtuous that is present in the wider culture present here? Why am I unable to tell the difference (mostly with this topic) between a Catholic forum and one that is entirely “of the world”? I would expect some posters to stand up for virtue in a public forum, but for a similar percentage (or less) on forum like this?

I am angered, saddened, and completely bewildered at how people on a Catholic forum treat chastity (and other virtues, too) so lightly; we have truly, truly lost the culture war. If immorality and bad character can be accepted as normal and a matter of course, even here, I honestly wish I were dead.

Boy, I would prefer a virgin to a not virgin; a chaste to a not chaste; a virtuous to a not virtuous; a hard-working to a lazy one; a courageous to a coward.
The problem is that these virtuous are rare.
But you will have no problem finding a husband. Should the lucky one be as virtuous as you.
But to marry you need to be alive! I dont want you dead !!!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’ve been reading the forums for a few weeks now, and was especially disappointed when I came across this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=678571. I signed up just so I can address this issue. I must be honest: I simply cannot believe some of the modernist permissiveness attempting to disguise itself as level-headed Catholic/Christian wisdom here. When I read through these forums, I’m getting more and more embarrassed to be Catholic; these views and attitudes I see are pathetic. People seem to revel in weakness when we should aspire to strength; I constantly see successful self-defeat. It makes me jealous of my Mormon friends who strive to much greater lengths to be virtuous.

I looked forward to being the best wife possible; a person of good character who has practiced self-restraint and self-control my entire life and would gladly (I mean this) recite everything I’ve ever done from day one until the present moment and welcome any and all judgement. “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? Go right ahead.

So why are good people told to give up in their search for an ideal spouse (as in the above thread)? I think the cynicism found here (and elsewhere) makes people weaker and the chances of myself and others finding a good husband smaller. Why is it that living an unchaste life is forgiven (yes, as it should be) but living a chaste life (and being serious about it) is somehow judgmental and bad? Why is someone who values virtue held in low regard? Why is every amount of discouragement to be virtuous that is present in the wider culture present here? Why am I unable to tell the difference (mostly with this topic) between a Catholic forum and one that is entirely “of the world”? I would expect some posters to stand up for virtue in a public forum, but for a similar percentage (or less) on forum like this?

I am angered, saddened, and completely bewildered at how people on a Catholic forum treat chastity (and other virtues, too) so lightly; we have truly, truly lost the culture war. If immorality and bad character can be accepted as normal and a matter of course, even here, I honestly wish I were dead.

It’s just the one thread. This forum has had tons of other threads on chastity. We do value virginity and chastity. That one thread is going to cause you to wish you were dead? Methinks you are a touch too sensitive!

Good for you for being chaste, I am sure you will find an also-chaste husband if marriage is your vocation!

Welcome to CAF! Hang around and get to know us!

 

[triumphguy]

I don’t see people treating chastity lightly in that thread, rather they are treating the reform of people seriously.

You can be a virgin and a bad person and not suitable for marriage.

A person could have lost their virginity and NOW be chaste, holy and a perfect candidate for marriage or the religious life.

Also chastity is a virtue in and of itself, and so something to aspire to. We don’t have to make lack of chastity into something it’s not. For instance: People do not grow hair on their palms when they masturbate, nor do they go blind.

STDs are not inherently worse than other diseases - they are just bugs/germs/viri that have found a way to get into the body of a human via intercourse.

Lack of chastity is bad NOT because you will go blind, or have parts drop off in a most embarrassing way, but because it lessons and cheapens the person, and it is a slap in the face to our creator who made us in HIS image and likeness.

That’s plenty bad enough without adding other mythological stuff.

 

[Chevaleresse]

It’s just the one thread. This forum has had tons of other threads on chastity.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I was “especially disappointed” when I encountered that particular thread. I have been reading this forum for a while now and my dismay with the wanton attitude that is pervasive here has only grown. I’ve searched through the forum to try to convince myself those kinds of threads are a short term trend, but alas, it is not so. We cannot have right virtue without right conditions.

That one thread is going to cause you to wish you were dead? Methinks you are a touch too sensitive!

Perhaps I’m sensitive, but since when should valuing virtue make one’s life miserable?

 

[Chevaleresse]

I don’t see people treating chastity lightly in that thread, rather they are treating the reform of people seriously.

Again, I’m referring to the overall attitude. That thread, while still an embarrassment, is not the worst.

To paraphrase Chesterton, we can be virtuous by reminding ourselves what evil comes of it, not bypassing that conclusion and focusing simply on forgiveness. It comes across as a license to sin, and I don’t remember that being declared as doctrine. (If it ever is, do you think “Licentia Peccatum” is too boring a title?)

The rest of your post belongs in the other thread.

 

[triumphguy]

Link to more of these threads please, because I never see them.

No linky no believy

 

[Chevaleresse]

Link to more of these threads please, because I never see them.

No linky no believy

I see no reason why I should have to retrace my steps in my reading of this forum to prove to you something that is blatantly obvious. No matter what I do, I am still “obscurely fighting the lost fight of virtue” in the words of Robert Louis Stevenson.

“Let them see virtue and rot for having lost it” - Persius

 

[triumphguy]

And I see no reason to go looking for examples to prove your opinion of this forum right.

I believe you are wrong.

Or… are looking for proofs to back up your opinion.

Since there are thousands of posters here, some searching, some not Catholic, some questioning you will get a wide variety of posts. BUT the great majority of posters here show a very Catholic spirit.

If may not be to your taste, but à chacun son goût.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I’ve been reading the forums for a few weeks now,

Hi Chevaleresse,:angel1: please try us a few more months and I’m sure you’ll find some compatriots for virtue. I for one am from the old school and am often shocked, (not by this forum) but by the general lack of respect for chastity in the world. May I recommend a wonderful book called “A Return to Modesty.” I just loved the book and I think you would too.

and was especially disappointed when I came across this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=678571. I signed up just so I can address this issue. I must be honest: I simply cannot believe some of the modernist permissiveness attempting to disguise itself as level-headed Catholic/Christian wisdom here. When I read through these forums, I’m getting more and more embarrassed to be Catholic; these views and attitudes I see are pathetic. People seem to revel in weakness when we should aspire to strength; I constantly see successful self-defeat. It makes me jealous of my Mormon friends who strive to much greater lengths to be virtuous.

Again, you might not have been on the forums enough to see that many here often stand up for virtue and doing the right thing. And as for the Mormons, please take a moment to remember all our Catholic Saints who are certainly virtuous examples for us all.:angel1:

I looked forward to being the best wife possible; a person of good character who has practiced self-restraint and self-control my entire life and would gladly (I mean this) recite everything I’ve ever done from day one until the present moment and welcome any and all judgement. “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? Go right ahead.

No one will judge you here. Your thoughts are welcome and I hope you will feel this is a safe place to explore. It’s OK to feel disappointed sometimes. It takes much more than four posts and a few weeks to feel at home and find like minded people.

So why are good people told to give up in their search for an ideal spouse (as in the above thread)? I think the cynicism found here (and elsewhere) makes people weaker and the chances of myself and others finding a good husband smaller. Why is it that living an unchaste life is forgiven (yes, as it should be) but living a chaste life (and being serious about it) is somehow judgmental and bad? Why is someone who values virtue held in low regard? Why is every amount of discouragement to be virtuous that is present in the wider culture present here? Why am I unable to tell the difference (mostly with this topic) between a Catholic forum and one that is entirely “of the world”? I would expect some posters to stand up for virtue in a public forum, but for a similar percentage (or less) on forum like this?
**
Your questions have merit, but remember, not everyone dis-agrees with you. Perhaps you will be the one on these forums to inspire critical thought on these subjects about which you feel so strongly. The world often has a way of chipping away at “old fashioned values.” Someone just yesterday on a Catholic website mentioned how “Tolerance” is MIS-used to excuse things that are often opposed to Catholic teaching**

I am angered, saddened, and completely bewildered at how people on a Catholic forum treat chastity (and other virtues, too) so lightly; we have truly, truly lost the culture war. If immorality and bad character can be accepted as normal and a matter of course, even here, I honestly wish I were dead.

**In time, I hope you’ll be able to enjoy the forums, knowing that many people here are very devoted to doing their best to live virtuous lives, to raise their families in a loving Catholic home, and for those single folks out there, to seek hope in such challenging times. God never changes, nor do his precepts. I hope you will stay around and enjoy the forums. People often feel so strongly about their beliefs that they often naturally seek out others who feel the same way. Catholic teaching is all about virtue, chastity and forgiveness so that people can start anew. While I agree that forgiveness is key, we do want to send the right message, that Catholic teaching holds sacred the Sacrament of Marriage, and although we may have failed, fallen or gone astray, the message we should be sending is that it is out of Love that God gave us His teachings. **

Please stay around awhile. It takes time to learn your way around. :grouphug::heaven::harp:
Peace
Kathryn Ann

 

[Rkdajr]

So why are good people told to give up in their search for an ideal spouse (as in the above thread)? I think the cynicism found here (and elsewhere) makes people weaker and the chances of myself and others finding a good husband smaller. Why is it that living an unchaste life is forgiven (yes, as it should be) but living a chaste life (and being serious about it) is somehow judgmental and bad? Why is someone who values virtue held in low regard? Why is every amount of discouragement to be virtuous that is present in the wider culture present here? Why am I unable to tell the difference (mostly with this topic) between a Catholic forum and one that is entirely “of the world”? I would expect some posters to stand up for virtue in a public forum, but for a similar percentage (or less) on forum like this?

Hello Chevaleresse, I did not see where the OP in that thread was told to give up his search nor how virtue was being discouraged or that living a chaste life was bad. The only thing being discouraged was possibly turning away women who might be seen as unchaste because they were not a virgin. Maybe the tone of some of the answers were a bit harsh, but it definitely wasn’t as bad as you stated.

 

[Chevaleresse]

Hello Chevaleresse, I did not see where the OP in that thread was told to give up his search nor how virtue was being discouraged or that living a chaste life was bad. The only thing being discouraged was possibly turning away women who might be seen as unchaste because they were not a virgin. Maybe the tone of some of the answers were a bit harsh, but it definitely wasn’t as bad as you stated.

It doesn’t have to be an explicit wording of “give up”; if people are told something is unlikely or impossible (even if it necessarily is not), that would cause them to give up, no? And I’m sure many people would if they were reminded of the odds rather than receiving encouragement and possibly advice, rather than being called judgmental (as ironic as it is). I think the poster had a point about the temporal ramifications of being unchaste; I also have a feeling some of the posters had certain vested interests. As an aside, it’s really interesting (and disappointing) to see how children and teenagers are taught to be chaste and how great their future relationships and life in general will be. When they reach their twenties they’re told a markedly different (and much less inspiring) story with much different emphases; “everyone around you failed, and that pile of dirt over there could very well have more morals than your future husband.”

Either way, it was posted in another sub-forum which had distinct answers from those of the linked thread.

 

[Father_La_Fleur]

Dear Chevaleresse,

I know what you mean…the question is to be, or not to be, a Saint wannabe. Do we want to go to heaven and please God the most possible or not. Be perfect as your Father(and Mother Mary) are perfect, Jesus said…nothing less than perfection and holiness enters God’s House. Only what is of God and for God, entirely, can be with God. No admixture with anything or anyone, not of God, at all. Pure light next to the Light, no shadow or stain. We were made for excellence, to be abnormal, above the norm, not below…we are not mutants or misfits but meant to be the ideal and more-God’s Dream come true! To strive for anything less is scandalous, insulting, offensive to Divine Mercy and it is blasphemous to suggest that the Gospel is unrealistic, not attainable, and an only an ideal to spur us to be fully human according to liberal ideals.

God is fair. He never proposes a goal without giving us the means to attain it. He invites to Jesus Truth and Life and proposes the Way. Jesus is the Way to Jesus, through Mary. No shortcuts around the Way of the Cross. Never Jesus without the Cross and HIs Mother.

We know this and we would not settle for anything less, deep down. It is when dissapointed, with ourselves, we are tempted to settle for less than what God intended for us. No one wants to blush before God because I only became 99.9% of what I was meant to be…We would fly to Purgatory or back down to earth to rectify this a.s.a.p.

The question is: How do we get there?and why do we settle for less?

This is where humility, patience, goodness, kindness, compassion and all the fruit salad of the Spirit, the virtues of Jesus and Mary come into play. Meek and humble of heart, Jesus says. He asks us to learn this virtue from Him. It is the only virtue He asks us to learn directly from Him, along with doing as He has done, after the washing of the feet-humility and purity and charity in action.

I get eruptions of orthodoxy too when I hear people give their advice…but there is a reason, a story of self-dissapointment behind it, and sadly, usually, an authority figure of faith-a Priest for example-who gave them a liberal we’re only human! lame excuse for justifying their sin…We must have ourhearts transpierced by these half-truths and lies and listen to their pain before we become too harsh. I go to Mary and vent my frustration and She always says: Congratulations! Now you know what God and His Mother feel like a tiny little bit! and you catch only a glimpse of the lukewarmness of one or two souls?! of your time?! And you, where would you be today without all that My Son and I have given you? Do you realize how many times we snatched you from the fire?and bailed you out? and prevented all those things you said will never happen to you, and that still can, if you are not careful?

Feel zeal but be real. Without being spoiled by grace, we would be much worse than those we criticize. Clear the Temple, by all means. Inspire, give heart, give the strength of a spiritual Samson, an unstoppable Salomon, a relentless King David, an inflamed Saint Paul, an impassioned Saint Peter and so on, but remember how they learned about God’s Mercy and Truth. They all fell short of the Glory of God. Wisdom, strength and zeal withoutt humility led to impurity, adultery, idolatry and self-idolatry and persecution of Jesus. This is what helps me stay balanced and fearless and bold in denouncing sin and promoting virtue.

Not even the angles were pure enough…only God’s Mama never let Him down…The only one who really loves God is His Mother-no one can love God like His Mother and God can only fully love and be loved by someone in His Mother, who is inseparable from His Son. That is Her role. To make us perfect as He is perfect. She is the mold of the God-Man and of all true men and women of God.

God chose Her because She is all Humility. All Pure, Beautiful, Sinless…yes…but God made Her that way. Without humility, She would be the queen of spiritual snobs, but She is not. This is paraphrasing Saint Bernard of Clairvaux and others.

She is not a coward, we are cowards. Her humility and gentleness and firmness are stronger than the arrogance and presumption of the world. One of Her tears falling into hell cause the devils more pain than all their other torments since their first fall…

I agree with you, totally. The more I get frustrated as you do, the more I seek the virtue most required for salvation before all others-humility. Our Lady of Virtues and merits, pray for us! Pray that I stay in Mary. Spiritual joy, and peace is the sign that we are ready to listen to the pain of the modern day Samaritan men and women, Mary Magdalenes and Pauls and Peters and other assorted sinners.

Don’t let the devil have the last word. Suffer with a smile as you listen and ask Our Lady: How can I make a difference? when I see they have no more wine?they only whine? and She will season your words, action, thoughts and desires with the irresistible truth of the Gospel. The right word, the right way, the right attitude, at the right time. She is the Ideal, She is Real, She is our Point of Reference for all virtue with Her Son in the Spirit. By the time the Father, Jesus and their Spirit of Truth, are through reforming us, we will all be more or less like Her.

It is an honor to read your thoughts and inspiring to listen to you! I wish I could have more courage like you!

Fr. Dominic

 

[manualman]

There is a real human tendency to consider the sins of THEM as far worse than the sins of US. It’s a part of the fall and is related to pride. Not one of us, however virtuous we think we are, is headed to heaven without the need of saving Grace. IIRC Jesus had some harsh words for the Pharisees who really did cultivate virtue as they knew it in external ritual and disciplines that impacted their daily lives. But instead of using those things to lead them to cardinal virtue, they got sidetracked into pride, which Jesus condemned as worse than the behavior of the sinners! (Look up the story of the Pharisee and sinner in the temple)

It is true that sexual sin does real damage to one’s soul and that confession and absolution do not make all of that damage vanish. Chastity is a real and true virtue highly desirable in a spouse. Treasure it, guard it and maintain it. But don’t be proud of it. If you have it, you only do so by Grace. It was a gift of God that you opened and appreciated. But recognize your own need for forgiveness and salvation too. Don’t despair that God can redeem and sanctify you and don’t despair that He can do it for others either. Even those who commit THOSE sins. The ones OTHERS have done and you haven’t.

 

[denitaA]

I’ve been reading the forums for a few weeks now, and was especially disappointed when I came across this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=678571. I signed up just so I can address this issue. I must be honest: I simply cannot believe some of the modernist permissiveness attempting to disguise itself as level-headed Catholic/Christian wisdom here. When I read through these forums, I’m getting more and more embarrassed to be Catholic; these views and attitudes I see are pathetic. People seem to revel in weakness when we should aspire to strength; I constantly see successful self-defeat. It makes me jealous of my Mormon friends who strive to much greater lengths to be virtuous.

I looked forward to being the best wife possible; a person of good character who has practiced self-restraint and self-control my entire life and would gladly (I mean this) recite everything I’ve ever done from day one until the present moment and welcome any and all judgement. “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? Go right ahead.

So why are good people told to give up in their search for an ideal spouse (as in the above thread)? I think the cynicism found here (and elsewhere) makes people weaker and the chances of myself and others finding a good husband smaller. Why is it that living an unchaste life is forgiven (yes, as it should be) but living a chaste life (and being serious about it) is somehow judgmental and bad? Why is someone who values virtue held in low regard? Why is every amount of discouragement to be virtuous that is present in the wider culture present here? Why am I unable to tell the difference (mostly with this topic) between a Catholic forum and one that is entirely “of the world”? I would expect some posters to stand up for virtue in a public forum, but for a similar percentage (or less) on forum like this?

I am angered, saddened, and completely bewildered at how people on a Catholic forum treat chastity (and other virtues, too) so lightly; we have truly, truly lost the culture war. If immorality and bad character can be accepted as normal and a matter of course, even here, I honestly wish I were dead.

No, they don’t treat chastity lightly here, but it seems no matter where I look, chastity talk is reserved for young people, either wanting to marry-like you- or discerning a religious vocation, or even the married state. Try to find something for those like me who are still a virgin( age 50), with no call at all to those states. I call it the “lost vocation.” But this may be the topic of another thread. And God won’t let me wish I were dead, BTW.

 

[cerad2]

and would gladly (I mean this) recite everything I’ve ever done from day one until the present moment and welcome any and all judgement.

I would imagine it would make for a fairly long thread but go ahead and start reciting. I’m curious as to what you remember from day one. And I promise not to judge too harshly.