a little understanding about wicca, its not bad

[KarenNC]

I agree Rebecca. This is another group of people looking for religion to support their own moral relativism. The same goes for the Unitarian Universalists. Hokey, contrived, feel-good, glurge. Let’s all hold hands and sing kum-bay-ya.

I will grant you that there are certainly those in both groups who are guilty of precisely what you describe. I can also tell you from experience that there are a whole lot of folks wearing the label “Christian” who are doing exactly the same thing.

Thankfully that is not the entirety of any of the groups.

 

[KarenNC]

If you are into paganism why not become a true pagan and not a “reconstructed” trail of blood pagan like Wiccans.
I heard Santería and Palo Mayombe are taking converts.
They (a)moral teachings are very similar.

I would be interested in your more explicit comparison of the moral teachings of Wicca (though I have to warn that you will need to pick a particular strand) with those of Santeria and Palo Mayombe. I am not very familiar with the specifics of either of those religions.

Also, what is your criteria for “true” pagan?

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

Wicca is evil, as are all other Religions besides Catholicism. Anything that would lead one away from God is evil…

 

[Bennie_P]

im hear to clear up a little bit of misinformation about wicca. during its time on earth, it has gone by many names, paegan as one of them. it is the oldest religion in the world, and is also the “base” religion, where the others spawnd from. a little known fact is why chatholics are made to hate it. during the young age of the catholics, the leaders wanted to get more people into it. they told the world that if they did not belive in god and jesus, the wicca would destroy them by word of the devil. the truth is, wicca split in to 2 parts. we have the original good wicca, and the evil warped satanists that worship the devil. the satanists belives the catholics and created there own religion, thinking it was wicca, they were wrong. wicca is the religion of the earth. it belives all things are equal, and the god and goddes refer to the seasons, mother nature and farther time. im not putting your religion down, but due to the old crooked religion laders (some of them were, you cant deny)you were all brainwashed into thinking wicca is evil.

Wow I didn’t know that world was only 60 years old!

 

[Bennie_P]

Nope, you don’t get a freebie on that one either. I doubt that I would, for instance, at almost 45 be accused of needing a “useful outlet for the potent energy of youthful petulant perversity”.

It is certainly true that there are teens and young adults who turn to what they imagine many Neopagan religions to be in search of a way to shock their parents, society or be “different” or “cool”, but there are many many more of all ages who are just as serious about their religion as any Catholic. Most of the ones who are trying to “shock” end up leaving fairly quickly when they realize that Wicca isn’t what they assumed based on “Buffy” and “Charmed” and fantasy novels, but a fairly pedestrian religion concerned with the same things as the religion they left—being a good person and living the best life one can. Some of them do develop a more mature understanding of the faith and stay.

If your 45, then isn’t it called the Peter Pan syndrome? or perhaps you are just having a mid-life crisis?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
But that is the point of neo-paganism. To simply contradict, via brute force, truth, which we descibe as God Himself, so as to give a “useful outlet” for the potent energy of “youthful petulent perversity”.

Nope, you don’t get a freebie on that one either. I doubt that I would, for instance, at almost 45 be accused of needing a “useful outlet for the potent energy of youthful petulant perversity”.

Ah,… 45,… even then, even several years passed that, was I a believer in “the great pantheon of choice”.

Then the silliness of the waring gods became simply too much for me. That others can gloss over the inherent “personality conflicts” between the gods is only proof that when you can invent gods to suit you, you can invent them such that even their mutual conflicts are useful.

I’m not saying that YOU need a useful outlet. Just that you’ve found AN outlet which neo-paganism provides.

The USE of the energy “directed” by the leaders of the various sects of neo-paganism is, in my opinion, always in error.

They may TRY to use it sensibly, and toward “the good” as defined by natural law, but it is always in major part misdirected into screwing up some poor youth’s psyche.

It is certainly true that there are teens and young adults who turn to what they imagine many Neopagan religions to be in search of a way to shock their parents, society or be “different” or “cool”, but there are many many more of all ages who are just as serious about their religion as any Catholic. Most of the ones who are trying to “shock” end up leaving fairly quickly when they realize that Wicca isn’t what they assumed based on “Buffy” and “Charmed” and fantasy novels, but a fairly pedestrian religion concerned with the same things as the religion they left—being a good person and living the best life one can. Some of them do develop a more mature understanding of the faith and stay.

And this goes right to the “problem” of utilizing an “ethical religion” which has no basis for it’s ethics other than, at best, a partial understanding, and/or usual mis-application, of natural law,… without it’s having the necessity of an “absolute principle” (God).

A baseless ethic is a floating ethic, and floating ethics crash.

But,… since we’ll not agree on that last bit,… we’ll move on to clarifying other things that we can also agree to disagree on.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[KarenNC]

If your 45, then isn’t it called the Peter Pan syndrome? or perhaps you are just having a mid-life crisis?

If I were to announce that I was converting to Catholicism, would it be likely to be termed “Peter Pan syndrome” or a “mid-life crisis”?

If you could elaborate on the line of reasoning that would lead you to the conclusion that this is a “mid-life crisis” or “Peter Pan Syndrome”, I will be glad to discuss them with you, because I am not sure where you would get that impression.

 

[KarenNC]

But,… since we’ll not agree on that last bit,… we’ll move on to clarifying other things that we can also agree to disagree on.

OK, let’s start with clarifying that “Neopagan” is not interchangable with “Wicca” and that it is most useful to use the term which is actually meant, for the purposes of clarity? That there exists a plethora of very diverse religions that get lumped under that umbrella term of “Neopagan”, even though they may be farther apart in beliefs and practices than Jews and Christians?

Personally, I use the term Neopagan as part of my religious descriptor because I feel it acknowledges the fact that I know this is not exactly the way that the ancient Greeks practiced worship. As I am not an ancient Athenian nor live in a society identical to it, that is not surprising. Similarly, modern Catholic worship and church structure is not identical to that of the Christianity of a first century Palestinian or a 10th century Irishman or a 15th century Englishman. It is not the ideal term, but it is a springboard for those discussions if a person wants to go further into it.

That one cannot generally talk about “Wicca” as a whole in terms of specific practices, beliefs, etc any more than one can talk about “Christianity”? Or “Neopagan” practices or beliefs any more than one can talk about “monotheistic” practices or beliefs? I think we can agree that, while both monotheistic, there is a bit of a difference in the beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic and the Sunni Muslim? Heck, that doesn’t even get into the vast differences between the various Protestant denominations and Roman Catholic—care to count up the number of threads on those distinctions?.

That every religion out there has followers representing a continuum of personality types, maturity levels, intellectual curiosity and human traits, both desirable and undesirable, and that it is the most flamboyantly so of either end of the spectrum that get the press?

We can also clarify that I am not here to advocate for any variety of Wicca any more than I am for any variety of Christianity. I think both are wrong. That’s why I do not follow either. There are, however, issues of fact about both that can be discussed independent of personal belief.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will grant you that there are certainly those in both groups who are guilty of precisely what you describe. I can also tell you from experience that there are a whole lot of folks wearing the label “Christian” who are doing exactly the same thing.

Thankfully that is not the entirety of any of the groups.

Not the problem I had with Wicca. I like kumbya, lol. But it is not my religious belief.

No, the problem is, I read up on it and saw it was some guy who decided to make a religion. Same as the religion I was raised in (mormonism). I see no reason to believe that a religion springs up from nowhere and can be called Truth. What was the Truth BEFORE that religion sprang up?

Why should I believe that any of these startup religions have any Truth to them? I may as well just build my own religion as opposed to believing what comes out of the imagination of others.

 

[Bennie_P]

A little understanding of Wicca is not bad, in order to realize its beginnings was just the muses of a middle age man that never wanted to grow up and had a few problems with the idea of morality as suscribed in the main stream ideas of morality as taught in Judea-Christianity. It is an anti-Church movement riddled with fantasy and fabrication.
To get an understanding concerning it beginnings here is an essay for your amusment. Notice this is “pro” wicca writer. geraldgardner.com/Gardner46-49.PDF

Today’s continued fascination would be funny, if it wasn’t for the fact that the young are drawn toward it as an act of rebellion at first, then a few stick with it either out of a lark to make fun of traditional Christianity or, perhaps they are just plain delusional and really think they can control events in their lives with magic or, perhaps foolheartly, yet innocently, are lead around by a few demon possessd “practicioners”. Personally I think it is a little of all of the above.
Many seem to be drawn to it also for it gives them an easy to do spirituality they can form in their own image instead of trying to comform to traditional faith systems, i.g. Christinity, Judism and Islam.

It is becoming mainstream, by the promotion of few “intellectuals” and “wiccan” historians. It is hard to tell if they really believe or just have found a way to make an easy living. It is recognized as a religion by the United States government.:doh2: Which I think was pushed by many in order to make fun of religion in general.

 

[a_cermak]

Many seem to be drawn to it also for it gives them an easy to do spirituality they can form in their own image instead of trying to comform to traditional faith systems, i.g. Christinity, Judism and Islam.

I think that’s one of the attractions right there. The fact that Wicca is not hard or demanding–or at least it’s as hard and demanding as you want to make it. You needn’t join a coven as the solitary path is quite respectable within Wicca. Every Wiccan is a priest so there is no need to seek another to practise the Craft. That alone makes for a more consumer friendly religion.

Another attraction to the faith of Wicca is that your god can be a female. This makes it very attractive to young women who strive to see a piece of themselves in the Divine. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches allow for some female presence with the Theotokis or the Virgin. Other Christian churches have no such outlet at all, not even female saints.

Many of the Wiccans I know do not accept the ancient religion theory. They consider it something of a foundational myth and not a whole lot else. They don’t care about reason in applicability to their faith because they see it as faith. For them, faith is about feeling and emotion–not reason particularly. They also see it as a useful psychiatric framework for being well adjusted and rearing reasonably well balanced children. Like any other religion, it focuses themselves on issues larger than themselves such as the imperative to take care of the planet and this leads to practical work at the local level such as cleaning forest preserves or parks.

I’m not sure it is all about rebellion because you would think the largest element of Wicca would be children from strict fundamentalist homes who would have the more obvious reasons to rebel. In fact, the largest contingency in Wicca, last I looked at the stats, were fallen away Catholics.

 

[KarenNC]

I think that’s one of the attractions right there. The fact that Wicca is not hard or demanding–or at least it’s as hard and demanding as you want to make it. You needn’t join a coven as the solitary path is quite respectable within Wicca. Every Wiccan is a priest so there is no need to seek another to practise the Craft. That alone makes for a more consumer friendly religion.

Quite true and not unlike a number of strands of Christianity. I haven’t met any personally, but I would not be surprised if there are “Samhain and Yule” Wiccans like there are “Christmas and Easter” Catholics.

There will always be those who take their religion more seriously, or engage in it in a different manner, than others. There are those who feel called to religious leadership, or to intense scholarly study, or devotion to social justice causes, or just to live their lives quietly and unobtrusively the best they can according to their religion. Realize that there are large groups of Wiccans and followers of other Neopagan religions out there that you don’t know about. The ones who are simply going about their lives rather than engaging in theatrics or wearing religious jewelry the size of hubcaps to attract attention (or who don’t enjoy theological debate on internet fora ). Wiccans are not called to evangelize or proselytize as a part of their religion, either, so that removes some of the pressure to get everyone else to be like them.

I would say that the attraction varies regardless of the religion and is more dependent on the person involved. Those who are searching for or comfortable with a more defined system of rituals and rules with a clearly defined hierarchy and clear role expectations will seek out traditions that contain such (British Traditional Wicca, for example, or the Roman Catholic Church). Those who seek a more individualized experience will seek those traditions which are more open to such (eclectic Wicca, for example, or some of the nondenominational churches or something like Quakers).

It is an interesting time period for Wicca as it grows from being a private initiatory religion, cloaked in secrecy and composed primarily of adult converts, to a more widespread mainstream legacy religion, if you will, with more families and children who are growing up in the faith and having their own children. For the new convert (regardless of the religion), their religion can be all-consuming and they feel a need to advertise their choice to everyone. They have a tendency to “out-whatever” those born to the religion. To one who grew up in the faith, it is simply a fact of life, like the color of one’s hair. Very different outlooks that can lead to very different behavior.

You also have the difference in those who are happy with status quo and perfectly fine and comfortable going along in the faith of their childhood and family vs. those who are seeking something that they do not find in that faith. There is a certain percentage of folks converting out of or into any given religion at any given time (don’t know the specific numbers for any particular religion, though I imagine some of the stats could be found).

The dynamics of the shift in form are fascinating, and, I imagine, not totally dissimilar to some of the shifts that early Christianity went through when it was of a similar age (less than 100 years old). Wicca is still in a very early stage. Christianity at this age also had widely varying splintered groups, each with a somewhat different take depending on the leader of the group who was convinced that his was the “right” version, and a lack of a clear vision of what was orthodox and what was not. It takes time for something like that to coalesce. The final form of the sacred writings even of Christianity didn’t emerge for several centuries after it began and it is a revelation-based religion. Two thousand years later, Christians still can’t agree as to exactly what is and is not “Christianity”.

Time will tell.

Actually, it seems to me that the concept of the “priesthood of all believers” is one of the biggest things that Wicca syncretized from Protestant Christianity. It is certainly not something that I have seen in any of the material on pre-Christian European religions that I have read.

 

[KarenNC]

Not the problem I had with Wicca. I like kumbya, lol. But it is not my religious belief.

No, the problem is, I read up on it and saw it was some guy who decided to make a religion. Same as the religion I was raised in (mormonism). I see no reason to believe that a religion springs up from nowhere and can be called Truth. What was the Truth BEFORE that religion sprang up?

Why should I believe that any of these startup religions have any Truth to them? I may as well just build my own religion as opposed to believing what comes out of the imagination of others.

There seem to have been plenty of folks in first century Palestine who shared that viewpoint.

 

[KarenNC]

Samhain. If I am remembering my seasons/moons/etcs correctly.

Thanks. I wil wait on TOP to clarify, however, what specific “evil” s/he feels was being done on the 27th. None of the Samhain rituals in which I have participated (and most were Wiccan rituals at which I was a guest or a more generic ritual that was open to any Neopagan, but still Wiccan-esque in form) was there anything I would call remotely “evil”.

As to Samhain, most of the groups I know of usually date it at Oct. 31 or Nov. 1, but doing something on the Saturday before is certainly convenient for scheduling. I know we went to a Halloween party (not related to any religion) that night. The full moon (another cycle which has importance in Wiccan ritual) was on the 25/26. Some folks celebrate Samhain and Halloween together, some keep them separate, one as a religious holiday and one as a cultural one.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Darn. I was so yearning for another history lesson from silver76.

 

[Keikiolu]

OK, let’s start with clarifying that “Neopagan” is not interchangable with “Wicca” and that it is most useful to use the term which is actually meant, for the purposes of clarity? That there exists a plethora of very diverse religions that get lumped under that umbrella term of “Neopagan”, even though they may be farther apart in beliefs and practices than Jews and Christians?

Any religion that is truly “uncorrupted” by the “great monotheistic religions” is pagan.

Neo-paganism is not one of those,… on which we agree.

Wicca, as a description of a religion, is not a description of a religion but of a very fuzzy group of quasi-spiritualistic semi-nature-worshiping hippies.

Wicca IS a neo-pagan religious “category” in that it is a direct response TO Christianity.

Personally, I use the term Neopagan as part of my religious descriptor because I feel it acknowledges the fact that I know this is not exactly the way that the ancient Greeks practiced worship.

As I am not an ancient Athenian nor live in a society identical to it, that is not surprising.

Quite so…!

Similarly, modern Catholic worship and church structure is not identical to that of the Christianity of a first century Palestinian or a 10th century Irishman or a 15th century Englishman.

That is also true, due to the fact that God’s revelation, while fully given, is not fully understood. This development, further unfolding, of the faith is consciously noted and a part of the faith itself.

But the precepts of the faith have never changed: only come to be more thoroughly known.

Neo-paganism is not a progression of discernment, but a piecemeal construction from “old skins” and “neighbor’s cast-offs”.

It is not the ideal term, but it is a springboard for those discussions if a person wants to go further into it.

That one cannot generally talk about “Wicca” as a whole in terms of specific practices, beliefs, etc any more than one can talk about “Christianity”?

I can ony speak about the Church (Catholic), and our creed(s) are really rather explicit and widely available for perusal.

Or “Neopagan” practices or beliefs any more than one can talk about “monotheistic” practices or beliefs?

That is one reason why “monotheism” isn’t considered a THING, but a category.

There simply ARE NO monotheistic practices or beliefs, other than the single statement that it assumes a belief that there is only ONE God.

I think we can agree that, while both monotheistic, there is a bit of a difference in the beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic and the Sunni Muslim? Heck, that doesn’t even get into the vast differences between the various Protestant denominations and Roman Catholic—care to count up the number of threads on those distinctions?.

I was a “computer guy” and I can’t count that high. In fact, if I tried God would give me the “Babel” treatment…! <-Z A P ! ! !->

That every religion out there has followers representing a continuum of personality types, maturity levels, intellectual curiosity and human traits, both desirable and undesirable, and that it is the most flamboyantly so of either end of the spectrum that get the press?

Amen…!

We can also clarify that I am not here to advocate for any variety of Wicca any more than I am for any variety of Christianity. I think both are wrong. That’s why I do not follow either. There are, however, issues of fact about both that can be discussed independent of personal belief.

I LOVE it when you, uncharacteristically for a neo-pagan, unequivocally say someone is WRONG…!!

…that just turns me on, to NO end…!!

Oh,… sorry for the effusive public displays of affection for your courage. True commitment is SO very attractive…!

Anyway,… yeah,… facts can be discussed for both fun AND profit, and showing the silliness of neo-paganism is both fun and quite profitable, if by “profitable” we mean “fun”.

So,… let the fun commence…!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[KarenNC]

Any religion that is truly “uncorrupted” by the “great monotheistic religions” is pagan.

If by “corrupted” you mean “potentially influenced in any way” or “aware of”, then there were no pagan religions in the Middle East, nor in the Mediterranean region, etc. for at minimum hundreds of years before the advent of Christianity.

Wicca, as a description of a religion, is not a description of a religion but of a very fuzzy group of quasi-spiritualistic semi-nature-worshiping hippies.

I would agree that some folks who label themselves Wiccan do indeed fall into that category. Usually this is to the chagrin of others in the Wiccan community.

In recent years there has been quite a blossoming of folks doing serious scholarly work in Wicca and other Neopagan religions, far beyond the “Wicca 101–how to do spells to get a boyfriend/girlfriend and better grades” kind of junk that is unfortunately prevalent. It is quite encouraging to see.

Wicca IS a neo-pagan religious “category” in that it is a direct response TO Christianity.

According to its followers, it is a religion. According to its followers, Christianity is also a religion, whether I agree with its basic beliefs or not and odd as I find the practices and interpretations of those beliefs in some of the groups and individuals who use that label.

That is also true, due to the fact that God’s revelation, while fully given, is not fully understood. This development, further unfolding, of the faith is consciously noted and a part of the faith itself.

Well, hopefully one day the Gods will help you fully understand We all continue to strive to a fuller understanding of the Gods and our relationship to Them.

But the precepts of the faith have never changed: only come to be more thoroughly known.

That’s a pretty accurate picture of the way I understand Hellenism, though I would also say “known in relation to our current society”. Christians should have no problem with the idea that a God could have a somewhat (or even radically) different relationship with different groups of people than past performance would lead one to expect .

Neo-paganism is not a progression of discernment, but a piecemeal construction from “old skins” and “neighbor’s cast-offs”.

Tsk, tsk, again with the lack of specificity…to which religion that is termed “Neopagan” are you referring? Certainly I will agree that there is an unfortunate tendency to “cherry pick” among many traditions in some groups of some religions that are termed “Neopagan”, especially when those overlap with New Age movements, for which I have really limited sympathy. I find the same in some groups that label themselves Christian. I will admit that the UU church, while I find it a wonderful community and source of support, does tend to fall prey to that at times. It is frustrating.

That is one reason why “monotheism” isn’t considered a THING, but a category.

There simply ARE NO monotheistic practices or beliefs, other than the single statement that it assumes a belief that there is only ONE God.

And “Neopagan” is not a “thing” but a “category” or loose descriptor of a category of religions that sometimes look very little like each other. You can’t even say that all of them believe that there is more than one God.

I LOVE it when you, uncharacteristically for a neo-pagan, unequivocally say someone is WRONG…!!

…that just turns me on, to NO end…!!

I won’t tell my husband . Honestly, if I didn’t believe that other religions were wrong, why in the world would I be following one that complicates my life in so many ways? It’s certainly not because it’s “cool”, “popular”, “convenient”, “socially accepted”, etc. because it is none of those things, not even in the broader Neopagan community. I don’t even get to dress up in neat clothes, use cool tools and make up a new name. Instead I get to live the life of a suburban, homeschooling stay at home mom, who prays to her Deities and pours the occasional libation along with getting to Scout meetings and the library. Most folks just look at me and say “Hunh??”

Oh well, it was basically a case of my Gods coming looking for me for some reason rather than the other way around, certainly not a place I planned to be but it’s a better place than I have ever been overall and I am a better person because of it.

 

[rtconstant]

OK, let’s start with clarifying that “Neopagan” is not interchangable with “Wicca” and that it is most useful to use the term which is actually meant, for the purposes of clarity? That there exists a plethora of very diverse religions that get lumped under that umbrella term of “Neopagan”, even though they may be farther apart in beliefs and practices than Jews and Christians?

Personally, I use the term Neopagan as part of my religious descriptor because I feel it acknowledges the fact that I know this is not exactly the way that the ancient Greeks practiced worship. As I am not an ancient Athenian nor live in a society identical to it, that is not surprising. Similarly, modern Catholic worship and church structure is not identical to that of the Christianity of a first century Palestinian or a 10th century Irishman or a 15th century Englishman. It is not the ideal term, but it is a springboard for those discussions if a person wants to go further into it.

That one cannot generally talk about “Wicca” as a whole in terms of specific practices, beliefs, etc any more than one can talk about “Christianity”? Or “Neopagan” practices or beliefs any more than one can talk about “monotheistic” practices or beliefs? I think we can agree that, while both monotheistic, there is a bit of a difference in the beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic and the Sunni Muslim? Heck, that doesn’t even get into the vast differences between the various Protestant denominations and Roman Catholic—care to count up the number of threads on those distinctions?.

That every religion out there has followers representing a continuum of personality types, maturity levels, intellectual curiosity and human traits, both desirable and undesirable, and that it is the most flamboyantly so of either end of the spectrum that get the press?

We can also clarify that I am not here to advocate for any variety of Wicca any more than I am for any variety of Christianity. I think both are wrong. That’s why I do not follow either. There are, however, issues of fact about both that can be discussed independent of personal belief.

Very honest posts. I used to work for a guy who was a Kemetic you remind me of him. Until you he was probably the only person I considered a “real” pagan. He espoused a definate moral/ethical code and held to strong relgious and philosophical positions. I’ve known many Wiccans so that kind of cander was surprising to me.

 

[Ahimsa]

Very honest posts. I used to work for a guy who was a Kemetic you remind me of him. Until you he was probably the only person I considered a “real” pagan. He espoused a definate moral/ethical code and held to strong relgious and philosophical positions. I’ve known many Wiccans so that kind of cander was surprising to me.

Kemites ain’t no joke.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There seem to have been plenty of folks in first century Palestine who shared that viewpoint.

It is choosing to believe what is reasonable.

Faith is required for all religious belief, but there needs to be reasonable facts and theology behind it all. New age paganism, mormonism, jws, scientology, I have a hard time seeing it all as anything but let’s play make believe.

I don’t doubt that people who believe such things are serious about their beliefs. And I don’t believe anyone with serious religious belief is living an adolescent fantasy. It is just not possible for me to share in that belief.