a little understanding about wicca, its not bad

[Zooey]

Not the problem I had with Wicca. I like kumbya, lol. But it is not my religious belief.

No, the problem is, I read up on it and saw it was some guy who decided to make a religion. Same as the religion I was raised in (mormonism). I see no reason to believe that a religion springs up from nowhere and can be called Truth. What was the Truth BEFORE that religion sprang up?

Why should I believe that any of these startup religions have any Truth to them? I may as well just build my own religion as opposed to believing what comes out of the imagination of others.

That’s a very interesting comparison…

---

To OP: As far as the idea that Wicca (or any neopagan religion) is the survival of an ancient religion…Trust me: None of us would be happy with the:bigyikes: :bigyikes: kind of things that, say, my own Celtic ancestors got up to in the name of religion. (When the Roman Empire is literally in terror of the inhabitants of a wee, small island[Ireland], so much in fear that they never even try to invade it, you are not dealing with anything even vaguely resembling what we today call neopaganism).
Silver,you really seriously need to read some more about history in general, & neopagans/wiccans in particular. Myths & legends are no end of fascinating, but they aren’t exactly truthful; the nature of myths & legends is that they are stories, not history.

And, Karen, as much as we often disagree, I want to:tiphat: thank you for the clarity (and charity) of your posts in this thread.

 

[I_Believe]

I had a co-worker at one of my previous jobs that tried to convince me that I was a perfect candidate for initiation into her “christian wicca” coven.

This was before I returned to the Church, and now that I think of it, it may be her reasoning that helped bring me back.

She began by saying she embraced the teachings of Jesus.
Then she tried to convince me that Catholicism had many things in common with wicca, and that catholic devotions and sacramentals were no different than the “tools” of wiccan ritual magic. Talismans and amulets, she likened to medals. Mary was a goddess. Transubstantiation was, in her words, ritual magic.
She asserted that the Church had no choice but to adapt pagan ways and customs in order to convert them.

Though I had lost the faith, I saw her argument as blasphemy, and declined the offer. Oddly, I began lurking on catholic forums after that, and finally came home

 

[Wammy101]

It is a clear manifestation of evil and a decay of morals. The worship of demons opposed to God. I hope you good christians prayed to counter the evil that was done by wiccans last Saturday night, the 27th?

Decay of morals?!
I think if you take a step back and look, dislike and predjudice aside, the 2 have similar ‘commandments’.
Catholics have the 10 commandments, Wiccans have:
Eight words the Wiccan rede fulfill, An it harm none, do what ye will.

Kinda has that whole 'love thy neighbour feel, doesn’t it?

 

[deb1]

When I was younger(in a galaxy, far, far away) I was interested in Wicca. I still can see the appeal. Its code of doing no harm but not standing for nothing beyond that allowed me to practice extreme tolerance, which is something that I wanted to do anyway. I liked the rituals that were missing in Protestant churches, I enjoyed the focus on nature and the openess to sexuality. It also appealed to my desire to practice alone because you don’t have to practice in a community.

Yet, when I researched nonWiccan writings I could find nothing that supported the belief that this religion existed before Christianity. In fact, I was often startled at how cruel the pagan societies were. They certainly weren’t the oasis of female led societies or peaceful harmony.

I was under the impression that most Wiccans now accept that their religion was created in the twentieth century.

I feel sympathy for the poor OP. She is obviously searching and that can be a painful path to travel.

 

[deb1]

Decay of morals?!
I think if you take a step back and look, dislike and predjudice aside, the 2 have similar ‘commandments’.
Catholics have the 10 commandments, Wiccans have:
Eight words the Wiccan rede fulfill, An it harm none, do what ye will.

Kinda has that whole 'love thy neighbour feel, doesn’t it?

Unlike some on this thread, I do not think that Wiccans are evil.

But I would like to point out that the Wiccan code does not sound like Jesus’ words. Christ instructed as to love our neighbor as ourselves. That is an active command. If you are truely loving your neighbor as yourself then you will actively try and help him. If he is starving, you will bring him food. If he is in trouble, you will stop to help.

Doing no harm, is very passive. A Wiccan could still follow their commandment and not do a thing to help anyone else.

The two really aren’t comparable.

 

[Wammy101]

Unlike some on this thread, I do not think that Wiccans are evil.

But I would like to point out that the Wiccan code does not sound like Jesus’ words. Christ instructed as to love our neighbor as ourselves. That is an active command. If you are truely loving your neighbor as yourself then you will actively try and help him. If he is starving, you will bring him food. If he is in trouble, you will stop to help.

Doing no harm, is very passive. A Wiccan could still follow their commandment and not do a thing to help anyone else.

The two really aren’t comparable.

If some one was starving, and a Wiccan stood by and did nothing, it would be considered harm, there fore although it can be distorted as a ‘lets sit around while the world collapses around us’ statement, the Wiccan Rede actually isnt.
Thats just the contracted summing up, there is actually a full verse of it:

Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.
Live an’ let live - Fairly take an’ fairly give.
Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out.
To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme.
Soft of eye an’ light of touch - Speak little, listen much.
Deosil go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.
Widdershins go when the Moon doth wane, An’ the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane.
When the Lady’s Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two.
When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heart’s desire seek.
Heed the Northwind’s mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail.
When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth.
When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast.
When the West wind blows o’er thee, Departed spirits restless be.
Nine woods in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick an’ burn them slow.
Elder be ye Lady’s tree - Burn it not or cursed ye’ll be.
When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane fires burn.
When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log an’ let Pan rule.
Heed ye flower bush an’ tree - By the Lady Blessèd Be.
Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone an’ truth ye’ll know.
When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed.
With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend.
Merry meet an’ merry part - Bright the cheeks an’ warm the heart.
Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad an’ three times good.
When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow.
True in love ever be Unless thy lover’s false to thee.
Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - An’ it harm none, Do what ye will.

 

[RWMorris]

To the OP:
First, can you write more clearly?
Second, my sister was delivered from Wiccan practices this year. After twenty years, she has finally come home and found what she needed so long. She will be the first to tell you and anybody else how wrong-headed paganism is.

 

[KarenNC]

Trust me: None of us would be happy with the:bigyikes: :bigyikes: kind of things that, say, my own Celtic ancestors got up to in the name of religion. (When the Roman Empire is literally in terror of the inhabitants of a wee, small island[Ireland], so much in fear that they never even try to invade it, you are not dealing with anything even vaguely resembling what we today call neopaganism).

If one reads the stories of any religion in ancient times, I think we can all safely say that we are glad we no longer live in those societies. They are rife with genocide, brutality, death (often horribly) for what we would today consider minor infractions, slavery, blood sacrifices, deities asking for human sacrifice, women and children as property, requiring girls to marry their rapists, etc----and that’s just the Bible. The stories from other cultures of that time period are similarly as violent and different from modern Western social mores. Just because there are those who follow a religion with ancient roots does not mean that they have to then imitate every single action of that ancient culture that first knew their Gods or not be “real” (hey, have you ever tried to fit a hecatomb of cattle into a suburban backyard?–not something I want to try).

There is also the fact that as modern Westerners we have a very different relationship with religion in general than the ancients did. For the ancients, religion was not typically something that was considered an individual choice or a matter of individual worship—it was a tribal/corporate thing, a truly state religion if you will. Your gods were the gods of your people, your tribe. Conversion to another tribe’s Gods was possible, but usually through marriage or conquest, as far as I can tell.

The idea of choosing an individual religion is something that was more part of the mystery religions of the classical Hellenic world, out of which Christianity sprang. That concept of individual choice of worship independent of the state is something that is likely another syncretization from Christianity, which I believe Christianity itself syncretized from the Hellenic world in which it grew (it was certainly not part of ancient Judaism).
people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/wphil/lectures/wphil_theme04.htm is quite interesting.

One is left ot ponder what, in my case for instance, the religion of the ancient Greeks would have looked like now if active, continuous conscious corporate worship had been maintained over the intervening centuries. The same could be said of the Celts, the Norse, etc. It is unlikely that it would have remained “frozen in time and practice”. Nothing does. We have clear evidence that all known religions changed in various ways over time, even in the ancient world.

the nature of myths & legends is that they are stories, not history.

I agree. I believe it is precisely because they are so incredibly truthful on a deeper level that they survived when “mere facts” (as we now think of history) has disappeared. I see the sacred stories (“myths”–which is what we term the sacred story of any religion or culture but our own) as a means to convey to the people of a particular religion or culture what it means to be human, how to act toward other humans, our environment and that which is beyond our current understanding.

Sacred stories have a role to play, but it is defeated when we try to take them out of their purpose and try to turn them into “mere fact”.

And, Karen, as much as we often disagree, I want to:tiphat: thank you for the clarity (and charity) of your posts in this thread.

You’re welcome.

 

[wmscott]

im hear to clear up a little bit of misinformation about wicca. during its time on earth, it has gone by many names, paegan as one of them. it is the oldest religion in the world, and is also the “base” religion, where the others spawnd from. a little known fact is why chatholics are made to hate it. during the young age of the catholics, the leaders wanted to get more people into it. they told the world that if they did not belive in god and jesus, the wicca would destroy them by word of the devil. the truth is, wicca split in to 2 parts. we have the original good wicca, and the evil warped satanists that worship the devil. the satanists belives the catholics and created there own religion, thinking it was wicca, they were wrong. wicca is the religion of the earth. it belives all things are equal, and the god and goddes refer to the seasons, mother nature and farther time. im not putting your religion down, but due to the old crooked religion laders (some of them were, you cant deny)you were all brainwashed into thinking wicca is evil.

Silver, the problem is, as stated by you, “Wicca is the religion of the earth. It believes all things are equal, and the god and goddess refer to the seasons, Mother Nature and farther time.” Is that everything here is of the earth and only of the earth (period). The Lord is infinitely far more than the very small aspect of your perceived existence and so called religion. The earth, nature, and time are of Gods making and of Gods desire. The problem is you stop at these and never go beyond to the full grandeur of what God has to offer. I know some involved in Wicca and it is just an excuse to avoid their ultimate responsibility to God, those who practice Wicca are fully aware of what Christianity is and what it teaches. It is a way to do what feels good and to buck authority.

 

[love4mary]

I have started another thread on this very issue of Wicca in relation to my grandson. Any faith that can “worship” a goddess and/or multiple gods is to be feared, that was the One thing God was totally adamant about. Him and Only Him shall we Worship!

Here is my understanding of Wicca from the mouth of my 10 year old grandson. “I worship the sun, my element is fire and my sign is Leo which I want tattooed on my arm” This was information he got from his mother (yes he most likely confused many of the details, but THIS is what his little boy ears heard).

I am raising him in a loving Catholic Christian home, and this Wicca confusion is causing him great harm. Its like a fun cartoon to him, thats exactly the way his mother is presenting it to him. I love my daughter and continue to pray for her soul, but my grandson is the one I fear for the most. She is an adult and can choose which path she will take, but I will do everything in my power to protect my grandson from this. Oh, and no matter what Wicca tries to claim, it IS of Satan. One branch of Wicca denies that Satan even exists, that is one of his most effective tricks. The more they deny Satan, the happier and more successful he gets.

“Do no harm, Do what ye will”…this statement of “faith” confuses my simple brain. Let me try and understand it better. If I commit a personal sin, say view pornography or in my heart lust after my best girlfriends husband (unknowing to both parties) then because no one seemed to be injured in this, then its OK under the Wicca Code? In other words, our sins are committed in a vacuum which effects no one else? All sins, and I mean Every Single One ever committed DOES hurt someone else, and that someone else is GOD.

I will continue to love and respect nature and give thanks to the Almighty God who created it all, not some goddess or “lesser” god. I have every intention of spending my eternity in Heaven and I plan on taking my family and loved ones with me.

 

[KarenNC]

Then she tried to convince me that Catholicism had many things in common with wicca, and that catholic devotions and sacramentals were no different than the “tools” of wiccan ritual magic. Talismans and amulets, she likened to medals. Mary was a goddess. Transubstantiation was, in her words, ritual magic.
She asserted that the Church had no choice but to adapt pagan ways and customs in order to convert them.

Though I had lost the faith, I saw her argument as blasphemy, and declined the offer.

I don’t see it as blasphemy to say that ritual serves a similar purpose regardless of the religion to which it is attached. Good ritual is also good “sacred theater”. If it is effective, it is something that helps take us out of ourselves and toward an interaction with Deity (ies) or to a state of mind that is more receptive to such. It is the creation of something sacred, something literally set apart in time and space, different than our everyday lives, in order to catch our attention and emphasize its importance. That is as true for the Wiccan, the Catholic, the follower of Shinto, the Buddhist, the Lakotan, etc.

Religions and cultures do indeed borrow from each other constantly and always have, and religions borrow from the cultures in which they are practiced. A Catholic service or church in England probably looks rather different than one in Chiapas because it uses symbols that are meaningful to the local culture. All religions are also composed of humans and we know that there is very little that is new under the sun in terms of human behavior and what “speaks” to us on a symbolic level.

That doesn’t mean that because we have a picture of a priestess holding a cup to present an offering to a Deity it somehow “proves” that all subsequent groups who use a cup in some way in their rituals are “really” practicing that ancient religion rather than their own regardless of their intent any more than using a cup to drink a Pepsi means that everyone who drinks a Pepsi is “really” taking part in Eucharist. It merely means that humans find a cup a convenient vessel to hold something.

Oddly, I began lurking on catholic forums after that, and finally came home

Not really odd at all. Sometimes it takes an encounter with someone or something very different to spur us to take a closer look at our own traditions and solidify our beliefs about them.

 

[TomPiltoff]

I still believe that 99% of wiccans are

1.) Teenagers who are simply attracted by another religion that they can upset their parents over

2.) People who simply find all the rituals cool. (I get to use amulets! Like a movie!)

 

[KarenNC]

Here is my understanding of Wicca from the mouth of my 10 year old grandson.

I am not sure that I would classify 10 year olds as the best or most accurate source of full theological knowledge of any religion. You may want to talk further with his mother and do some other research on your own if you actually have an interest in understanding this religion from a practitioner’s point of view.

Oh, and no matter what Wicca tries to claim, it IS of Satan. One branch of Wicca denies that Satan even exists

Every branch of Wicca that I have encountered, and in fact most non-Abrahamic faiths, do not really concern themselves with whether Satan exists or not as it is irrelevant to their religion. Rather like I don’t believe Catholics spend too much time worrying and focusing on Ganesha. Satan is a part of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim religious hierarchy, and the understanding of Satan’s exact nature varies a lot among even those.

To persist in saying that “no matter what they claim x does/believes this” is simply not productive if you actually have any desire whatsoever to engage in meaningful conversation. It is exactly the same as the Protestant who says “it doesn’t matter what the Catholics say, I know they worship statues, I’ve seen them do it”. That the Protestant firmly believes that this statement is true does not make it a true statement about Catholics.

If I commit a personal sin, say view pornography or in my heart lust after my best girlfriends husband (unknowing to both parties) then because no one seemed to be injured in this, then its OK under the Wicca Code? In other words, our sins are committed in a vacuum which effects no one else?

The “harm none” is also be understood to include one’s own self. No action, positive, negative or neutral, is committed in a vacuum. The actions you describe can indeed be seen as harmful under the Wiccan Rede (or at least my understanding of it).

The production of pornography often (I will say usually from what I see) harms those who are involved in it, especially the women by turning them into one dimensional sex objects rather than full human beings. It harms the men because it presents an inaccurate picture of what is important in a relationship with a real woman and sets up something transitory and illusory in its place, as well as treating the women as property or accessories. The industry itself is rife with drugs, crime, etc. If it is used to the exclusion of or interferes with developing a relationship with actual women, it is definitely harmful to oneself.

Lusting after one’s girlfriend’s husband (and by this I presume that you mean more than acknowledging that he may be an attractive man) is harmful to your relationship with your friend even though you never act upon it because it creates envy, jealousy and a barrier between honesty and connection to her. Again, such a fixation can also interfere with your own marital relationships or ability to form a connection with someone available. Personally, I also see such a fixation as dishonorable if one is already in a committed relationship in that it breaks the vows of emotional fidelity that one made in that relationship. It can also serve as a means to avoid working on issues in your own life and relationships, which is definitely harmful.

I will continue to love and respect nature and give thanks to the Almighty God who created it all, not some goddess or “lesser” god.

In order to have any hope of understanding a non-monotheistic religion, you have to understand that the frame of reference is very different. My Gods are not “lesser gods” subservient to your God. They are fully Gods in their own right. From my point of view, I do not need to deny that your God may well exist, but I do say that I see no compelling evidence that your God is the only one out there or the ultimate Creator of all that is.

Now, that said, there are plenty of Wiccans (and others) out there that do indeed have a monotheistic belief —they believe that all Gods and Goddesses are only aspects of a singular Divine, whatever form that may be in. To them it is not a matter of a “lesser god” but rather interacting with “God in a different role” just as I may interact with a person in their role as a parent or as a professional or as a church member or as a fellow worker for a specific cause, etc. depending on the situation.

If you would like to actually have a discussion about what those who follow Wicca or other religions that fall under the Neopagan umbrella believe and do, I will be glad to do so to the best of my ability. However if your only purpose is to come and say “this is evil and I don’t care to hear anything that might indicate differently because I already know”, that purpose has already been fulfilled and I’m afraid there is not much room for or point in further discussion.

 

[KarenNC]

I still believe that 99% of wiccans are

1.) Teenagers who are simply attracted by another religion that they can upset their parents over

2.) People who simply find all the rituals cool. (I get to use amulets! Like a movie!)

And you base this on…?

 

[Bennie_P]

If some one was starving, and a Wiccan stood by and did nothing, it would be considered harm, there fore although it can be distorted as a ‘lets sit around while the world collapses around us’ statement, the Wiccan Rede actually isnt.
Thats just the contracted summing up, there is actually a full verse of it:

Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.
Live an’ let live - Fairly take an’ fairly give.
Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out.
To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme.
Soft of eye an’ light of touch - Speak little, listen much.
Deosil go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.
Widdershins go when the Moon doth wane, An’ the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfsbane.
When the Lady’s Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two.
When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heart’s desire seek.
Heed the Northwind’s mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail.
When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth.
When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast.
When the West wind blows o’er thee, Departed spirits restless be.
Nine woods in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick an’ burn them slow.
Elder be ye Lady’s tree - Burn it not or cursed ye’ll be.
When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane fires burn.
When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log an’ let Pan rule.
Heed ye flower bush an’ tree - By the Lady Blessèd Be.
Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone an’ truth ye’ll know.
When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed.
With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend.
Merry meet an’ merry part - Bright the cheeks an’ warm the heart.
Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad an’ three times good.
When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow.
True in love ever be Unless thy lover’s false to thee.
Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - An’ it harm none, Do what ye will.

And this writting is by? and by who’'s authority?

 

[KarenNC]

A further thought on the Rede from a Canadian Wiccan website
wcc.on.ca/faq/faq1.html

“So what does the Rede really mean? Well, that’s a subject we can debate for hours, preferably at the local pub. But here’s one interpretation worth considering: the Rede says, essentially, that you have complete freedom if your actions do not harm anything or anyone else — but if they do, the implication is that you no longer have complete freedom. Why? Because as soon as you act in a way that affects another, or the world around you, you are embedded in a web of cause and effect, connecting you to the others who were affected by your actions, and causing you to be in turn affected by their reactions, and so on. You are bound by the consequences of your act, and find yourself having to act again, and again, in ways that are constrained by the initial act. Thus, you can no longer simply “do as ye will”…”

Basically, my right to swing my fist without considering the consequences ends at your nose. The exercise of any right or freedom carries with it responsibility.

 

[goodknight439]

Decay of morals?!
I think if you take a step back and look, dislike and predjudice aside, the 2 have similar ‘commandments’.
Catholics have the 10 commandments, Wiccans have:
Eight words the Wiccan rede fulfill, An it harm none, do what ye will.

Kinda has that whole 'love thy neighbour feel, doesn’t it?

:nope: No actually It does not at all. The wiccan thing is more libertarian actually than “love they neighbor.” It doesn’t mention “loving” anyone. It states more to the effect “do whatever you want as long as you don’t think you are harming anyone.” The commandmant is “Love thy neighbor” not “Don’t harm your neighbor.” So the wiccan message is akin to “my will be done” rather than “thy will be done.”

 

[KarenNC]

No actually It does not at all. The wiccan thing is more libertarian actually than “love they neighbor.” It doesn’t mention “loving” anyone. It states more to the effect “do whatever you want as long as you don’t think you are harming anyone.” The commandmant is “Love thy neighbor” not “Don’t harm your neighbor.” So the wiccan message is akin to “my will be done” rather than “thy will be done.”

True. It also carries with it, however, that the practitioner is fully personally responsible for the consequences of the exercise of that will, whether they are good, bad or neutral, whether they are as intended or not. It speaks of behavior rather than emotion or belief.

A great many religions that are non-dogmatic are orthopraxic (concerned with right action) rather than orthodoxic (concerned with right belief). It matters less what you believe about why you do something than the way in which you do it or that you do it at all.

 

[TomPiltoff]

And you base this on…?

All my personal experience (including what I see in this thread)

 

[RebeccaJ]

True. It also carries with it, however, that the practitioner is fully personally responsible for the consequences of the exercise of that will, whether they are good, bad or neutral, whether they are as intended or not. It speaks of behavior rather than emotion or belief.

A great many religions that are non-dogmatic are orthopraxic (concerned with right action) rather than orthodoxic (concerned with right belief). It matters less what you believe about why you do something than the way in which you do it or that you do it at all.

It is illogical, if not completely harmful, to not realize that your beliefs influence your actions. Or more to the point, actions are a reflection of a belief. Right action comes from right belief. You make a separation where there is none.