a little understanding about wicca, its not bad

[KarenNC]

No, Christianity did not alter Western civilization. Christianity brought forth Western civilization. Even intellectually honest atheists know this plain truth. But if you want to minimize the historical, intellectual and moral impact of Christianity on the world, I won’t try and stop you. Note that I did not (nor did Chesterton) in turn try to minimize the historical, intellectual and moral impact of paganism on the world. So why the instinctive (defensive?) reaction on your part to diminish the historical, intellectual and moral legacy of Christianity? I am not threatened by acknowledging the depth and breadth of your “roots”. Why do you act as though threatened in acknowledging the depth and breadth of ours?

Bit of overreaction to saying that I don’t agree that Christianity is the ultimate force that has shaped the entire human race, don’t you think? I have taken pains earlier in this thread to specifically acknowledge that Christianity has indeed had a great impact on Western civilization. Western civilization is not equivalent to the entire human race.

If you are seeking an argument with someone who wants to diminish the effects that Christianity has had on Western civilization for good and ill, you will have to look elsewhere. However, I do not agree that its contribution to Western civilization is indeed overall bigger than the contributions of the Greek, Roman and Jewish civilizations out of which it sprang and “everything else that has come after it has been comparatively small”. We see daily, for instance, the fact that Islam is radically reshaping huge swathes of the world, both Eastern and Western, not to mention the role that Islamic societies had in preserving the legacies of the Classical world.

As to whether it has superceded everything in the world that came before it, I don’t see evidence, for instance, that Christianity has had a greater impact on Eastern civilization than Buddhism.

Now if you are interpreting my response to mean that I believe that any or all the religions grouped under the term Neopagan have had or are having a greater impact on Western civilization than Christianity, that would be preposterous in terms of sheer time frame alone.

 

[love4mary]

KarenNC, I think there might be a slight miss understanding concerning the “facts” of wicca as presented to me by my grandson. To his ears, that of a 10 year old child, meaning this is how he processed what he heard. As any parent can tell ya, what you Say is not always what your kid will Hear. BTW, I have full custody of my grandson

I have gone into many wicca sites, wicca.com to name one, (i believe this is a wicca friendly site) and it scares the everything out of me. What is practiced by wicca followers is so contrary to what God has commanded of us. I can only speak for myself, but my soul and that of my loved ones are far to important to Not obey the Word of God. If I am wrong about God (which faith and common sense tells me I am not) then no harm will come of me following God’s Will, but if I choose to follow another path like wicca and find out that its all a lie created by satan, then I loose eternity and that price is to high for me to pay.

 

[Bennie_P]

KarenNC, I think there might be a slight miss understanding concerning the “facts” of wicca as presented to me by my grandson. To his ears, that of a 10 year old child, meaning this is how he processed what he heard. As any parent can tell ya, what you Say is not always what your kid will Hear. BTW, I have full custody of my grandson

I have gone into many wicca sites, wicca.com to name one, (i believe this is a wicca friendly site) and it scares the everything out of me. What is practiced by wicca followers is so contrary to what God has commanded of us. I can only speak for myself, but my soul and that of my loved ones are far to important to Not obey the Word of God. If I am wrong about God (which faith and common sense tells me I am not) then no harm will come of me following God’s Will, but if I choose to follow another path like wicca and find out that its all a lie created by satan, then I loose eternity and that price is to high for me to pay.

This is not a wicca friendly site, we just start the wicca threads to get them tied into one area of the forum so they don’t do too much harm.

We need to be scared of wicca, yet we need to reach out to wiccans. They try rationalizing the foolishness, and as I posted earlier a little understanding of Wicca is not bad, in order to realize its beginnings was just the muses of a middle age man that never wanted to grow up and had a few problems with the idea of morality as suscribed in the main stream ideas of morality as taught in Judea-Christianity. It is an anti-Church movement riddled with fantasy and fabrication.
To get an understanding concerning it beginnings here is an essay for your amusment. Notice this is “pro” wicca writer. geraldgardner.com/Gardner46-49.PDF

Today’s continued fascination would be funny, if it wasn’t for the fact that the young are drawn toward it as an act of rebellion at first, then a few stick with it either out of a lark to make fun of traditional Christianity or, perhaps they are just plain delusional and really think they can control events in their lives with magic or, perhaps foolheartly, yet innocently, are lead around by a few demon possessd “practicioners”. Personally I think it is a little of all of the above.
Many seem to be drawn to it also for it gives them an easy to do spirituality they can form in their own image instead of trying to comform to traditional faith systems, i.g. Christinity, Judism and Islam.

It is becoming mainstream, by the promotion of few “intellectuals” and “wiccan” historians. It is hard to tell if they really believe or just have found a way to make an easy living. It is recognized as a religion by the United States government.:doh2: Which I think was pushed by many in order to make fun of religion in general.

.
Sooner or later, with a lot prayer for their souls, they may finally trip over their tongues and get some sense knock into them.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 1Cor 3:18-20

 

[CapaxDei]

im hear to clear up a little bit of misinformation about wicca.

It would be easier to take you seriously if you would be careful about spelling and punctuation. Anyway, the purpose of this board is not to learn about Wicca.

 

[love4mary]

Benny, this also would be a non issue for me if not for one thing. My Grandson is being pulling in two directions, Christian v Wicca. My 26 year old daughter completely believes this wicca evil and tried to “teach” me that God is a tree and the wind and the dirt and and and…

What starts out as child’s play and an act of rebelion turns into a full blown fight for souls.

 

[KarenNC]

KarenNC, I think there might be a slight miss understanding concerning the “facts” of wicca as presented to me by my grandson. To his ears, that of a 10 year old child, meaning this is how he processed what he heard. As any parent can tell ya, what you Say is not always what your kid will Hear. BTW, I have full custody of my grandson

I have a 7yo, and I doubt it gets much better by 10 based on my niece and nephew

As his legal guardian, you have every right (and every obligation) to control his religious education until he is 18.

I have gone into many wicca sites, wicca.com to name one, (i believe this is a wicca friendly site) and it scares the everything out of me. What is practiced by wicca followers is so contrary to what God has commanded of us. I can only speak for myself, but my soul and that of my loved ones are far to important to Not obey the Word of God. If I am wrong about God (which faith and common sense tells me I am not) then no harm will come of me following God’s Will, but if I choose to follow another path like wicca and find out that its all a lie created by satan, then I loose eternity and that price is to high for me to pay.

I am glad that you have gone further seeking information and a measure of understanding. That is all that anyone can ask of someone of another faith.

You have my prayers that you and your daughter will come to some way to less stressfully deal with the situation with your grandson. It is never easy to see someone else trying to pull your child (or your grandchild) in a direction you believe wholeheartedly is wrong. I see it frequently in family members and those in the community who target my child for conversion. It is hard when the other party works so hard to cloak the efforts in fun activities to make it seem more attractive. I am totally against efforts by anyone to proselytize children against the wishes of their parents.

 

[KarenNC]

It would be easier to take you seriously if you would be careful about spelling and punctuation. Anyway, the purpose of this board is not to learn about Wicca.

Unfortunately, the punctuation and spelling issues in a number of posts (by many posters on many threads) seems to me to be an artifact of the growing popularity of instant messaging and text-messaging. I think folks truly forget that what is accepted practice in one setting actually works against communicating their intent in another setting like this one.

I’m afraid you are wrong, CapaxDei. This section of this board (the Non-Catholic Religions section) is precisely about learning about Wicca, Islam, LDS, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and a whole host of other non-Catholic religions. That is the description of this section: “*explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents/I.” That’s going to mean that you are going to encounter people here who flat believe your religion is wrong in some fundamental way. If they did not, they would likely be Catholics.

It continues to surprise me how many folks post on threads on this section of the forum acting absolutely shocked and offended that people who actually believe in other faiths disagree with them on many issues of theology or dare to say that they believe differently, and no, they don’t plan to convert, thanks very much. My only guess is that they hit this section by mistake?*

 

[Bennie_P]

Benny, this also would be a non issue for me if not for one thing. My Grandson is being pulling in two directions, Christian v Wicca. My 26 year old daughter completely believes this wicca evil and tried to “teach” me that God is a tree and the wind and the dirt and and and…

What starts out as child’s play and an act of rebelion turns into a full blown fight for souls.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is very dangerous. You, your grandson and your daughter are in my prayers. All we can do is live out our faith and hope Christ shines through us as a witness against evil influence. Catechesis and full involvement in the Church with your grandson is the best why to counter the influence of his mother. Involvement in the Parish religious education program and if he has been through first communion, getting him involved as being an alter server would be a great influence for him also. Try not to be critical of his mother in front of him, Love and expression of love toward her and him seeing it will be a great re-enforcement of the Christian message of love. Let it be the wiccans that are critical and he will be able to see through the false ideas of love as he sees love in you as opposed of the anti-Christian message many wiccans seem to spew from their mouths. There is is a place to debate, such as on these forums, but always a place to express love and give love without expectations, such as in front of your grandson and toward his mother. Self-giviing love, many times comes back to the giver, but just don’t expect it nor place limits on the love you give.:twocents:

 

[TomPiltoff]

In reply to your point number two. People need rituals. If it is an empty ritual with no meaning then there is a problem. But if the ritual has meaning and the practioner understand that meaning then the ritual can lead to a deeper understanding of their faith.

I find some Protestants and atheists like to feel superior to the practice of rituals. But they to have rituals. What is placing one’s hand over one’s heart during the national anthem but a ritual?

Rituals aren’t bad, but of course, I think that anyone who wants meaningful rituals should become Catholic.

Yes, holding your hand over your heart is a ritual but it’s not meant to hold any power.

There’s no way to prove demographic information???

If you choose to make a habit of making blanket pronouncements on subjects about which you flatly state you refuse to learn anything, not much I can do about it. Kind of surprising, really. Most atheists that I know put more stock in their own reputation for credibility than that.

Takes all kinds, I guess.

No, I meant there’s no way to prove to you without saying that I read a bunch of material on Wicca that I’m not a biased individual.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

That would be difficult because it’s a very individual “affliction”, based on individual beliefs, dealt with by individual personal histories, etc, etc, etc…

You can probably find more and better examples of “demented” neo-pagans warped by their particular “demons” than I can, as I don’t travel in those circles terribly much.

I can certainly find nominal Christians who are warped into dementia by their “demons”,… but I was talking about the odd effects of neo-paganism and not nominal “Christianity”.

Then I guess there’s nothing much to actually discuss on that topic.

Sure, there is actually an unlimited number of things to talk about related to the “dementing” properties of both neo-paganism and nominal Christianity.

I’m sure you know numerous examples of people “warped” by what even you would consider “bad” practices and beliefs of other neo-pagans. The simple fact that you have (apparently) good discrimination of “good” from “bad” praxis and doxy (sic?!) in your own “spiritual” life tells me that there ARE such things as “edifying” and “warping” experiences within the LARGE world of neo-paganism.

For example, which bits of the wiccan “system” are commonly bent into things (faiths or morals) which you would consider “bad” because of their bad effects on their adherents?

Sorry, nope, don’t think this is going to lead to a productive discussion either----

I think we are going to need to leave it at you think that my Gods are either angels or demons, but either way are subservient to your God.

You’re absolutely right in that…! But this basic understanding is the springboard for any number of discussions as to the effects of our differing views, as well as the REALLY interesting discussions about how we would draw different conclusions from the SAME “type” of experience which we share…!

I know you are mistaken and that the evidence of my experience and the recorded experience of millions of others throughout known history points to your God as merely one more being among the class “Gods”, but am not sure if the idea that He is the only one originates from Him or from human misinterpretation.

And you’re very welcome to your view of things. I KNOW that you are truly seeking God in your gods, and that your gods will move you closer and closer to Him, because your conscience is (apparently) rather well formed (mostly if not wholly due to your Christain “taint”) and your angels are more strongly listened to by you than your demons because of your conscience.

I do have a question, though: DO you believe in direct revelation from “the gods”? (( My guess is that you do. ))

…continued below →

 

[Keikiolu]

…continued from above:

If you believed otherwise you would not be a monotheist. If I believed otherwise I would not be a polytheist. I think that we have hit an irreducible difference of worldview and belief. Again

That is true…! But the establishment of baseline “axioms” sets the stage for the REALLY fun part of the conversation…!!

I take your experiences as VERY real, and truly as you see them. So,… how do I explain YOUR experiences to you as I see them in such a way that you understand how I can see that you ARE (or aren’t) progressing “toward maximum possible understanding (God)” so that you may understand me better and I may understand you better?

That’s the fun part…!!

I had quite a fun time with that “sheep in the snare” piece. Thanks for the opportunity to see if I’m in the least comprehensible or not. I WOULD have liked a bit more feedback as to the specific things which made sense or were “objectionable” with that bit of verbage, but,… I can’t squeeze it out of you, so I’ll take what I get and try to make lemonade.

Having spent decades desparately trying to find a way to convince myself that I did indeed believe as you do (because that was the only way I thought one could believe) and failing utterly, I don’t think it likely that it’s going to happen here.

Your having to “convince” yourself, as opposed to “experiencing the offering” tells me quite a bit about your “angels and demons”.

You’re on a valid path, and your (apparent) acceptance of “spiritual beings” at all tells me that your “God shaped hole” is at least acknowledged by you as existing, which is MUCH more realistic than your typical atheo-agnostic.

The interesting thing to me is why you can accept the beings that you do, and not accept the beings that you don’t.

I accept God as God, because unification of mankind is a prime concern for me. “The gods” are a force of factionalizing and infinite complexification via the “non/partial-answers” offered by the myriad “aspects” of this incredibly diverse universe, each of which has a “spirit” which is more than happy to enlist God’s most precious creation (man) to “glorify itself” in opposition of all other “spirits”, most especially it’s greatest “opponent”, God as (The) God (“KE Akua”).

That’s my basic rationale. What’s yours?

(( See,… lots of stuff to talk about…! ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

I have read Chesterton, as well as many other authors, theologians and philosophers, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc. In some cases, it has been quite a while since I read a particular work.

I would rather have thought so, but I thought I’d nudge 'ya along those lines “just in case”.

I’d LOVE to hear your rebuttals to the Apostle of Common Sense…!

T-H-A-T would be very cool indeed…!!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.