J
japhy
Guest
This is an offshoot of the thread about kneelers, since the discussion moved away from kneelers specifically. (Let this be a lesson to all: when the conversation goes off topic, make a new thread! It’ll stop the moderators from justly closing the derailed thread.)
From kneelers and kneeling, the conversation moved to posture in general, noting that kneeling was not the posture at the Last Supper, nor was it prevalent in the early Church, being found more in Western liturgy than Eastern. The consideration that parishes removed (or didn’t install) kneelers in an effort to bring the Church back to the earlier practice brought up the accusation of antiquarianism or archeologism, fallacies in liturgical reform condemned several times, most recently/memorably by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei nn. 61-64.
The last three comments were as follows:
japhy:
From kneelers and kneeling, the conversation moved to posture in general, noting that kneeling was not the posture at the Last Supper, nor was it prevalent in the early Church, being found more in Western liturgy than Eastern. The consideration that parishes removed (or didn’t install) kneelers in an effort to bring the Church back to the earlier practice brought up the accusation of antiquarianism or archeologism, fallacies in liturgical reform condemned several times, most recently/memorably by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei nn. 61-64.
The last three comments were as follows:
If one rereads these last few contributions to the thread, it is so obvious that we all interpret the language of pronouncements and documents to suit our own perspectives. The popes have not been above that, either - it is human nature. It is interesting how we all are given to pick and choose what practices in church history are presumably inviolate and which are not. If it is an old, even ancient, practice that we like, we call it “tradition” and sometimes elevate it to the status of the immutable. If we don’t like it, we might call it “exaggerated … antiquitarianism.” If it is new and we don’t like it, we might call it “modernism.” If we like it, we might call it “progress.” All these terms can be given meanings that suit our preferences. The validity of any liturgy and other religious practice should depend on its efficacy and not on whether it is old, new or middle-aged.
My point in giving the example of the the first Eucharist at the Last Supper was to attempt to put this entire discussion of kneeling, sitting and standing in perspective and not to promote reception of communion in a sitting position. Again, these expressions of faith by various postures are of human invention and development. They have changed and will continue to change until the end of the world. Our faith and our salvation are not dependent on our posture, however appropriate (or, for another example, whether or not we sing Gregorian Chant, which is beautiful but unintelligible to almost all of us). And regarding the Eucharist, its sacramental efficacy is not at all dependent on whether we receive it standing, kneeling, sitting or prone; in the mouth or in the hand.
Once more, I appeal for a little perspective and a lot less waste of time and energy on matters, which though important in their own right, are not so important that they overshadow and obscure the essentials of our faith practice. Come, Holy Spirit!
Seems Pope Benedict is saying otherwise. It is the indifferentist attitude brought on by the “Spirit of Vat II” in respect to how we worship our Lord and God that is undermining the Faith itself.
And so this is the aim of this thread: to look at the difference in sacrificial language used in the two forms of Mass, and to discuss whether the misconceptions that many of the faithful (clergy and laity alike) have about the nature of the Mass (and the Eucharist specifically) could have come about from the two-step process of a) making more prayers audible, but at the same time b) removing important sacrificial language from those prayers (or removing the prayers altogether).Doesn’t how we worship and pray affect what we believe? If only there were some coy Latin expression to that effect…
Could it possibly be that people became less and less aware that the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice (the re-presentation of Jesus’s sacrifice on Calvary) when certain prayers and language were removed from the liturgy? Odd how, now that the Eucharistic Prayer is said out loud, people fail to recognize the part where the priest says that he is offering the living sacrifice present on the altar to God the Father. But then again, that could be because the language in the Eucharistic Prayers (at least in English) is simplified and neutered.