A Look In The Mirror

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God will give you strength and many other things by just asking Him. If you feel God gives you strength by doing those things you do in church, then that is your personal experience.

Like I mentioned before, I am not doing this alone…far from it. I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me who strengthens me and works through me. “I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength” I know the strength does not come from me…and I would never be so proud to think so. I goto to church and I worship God and fellowship with other believers…and God blesses me there as well…I am just trying to show you that we can receive anything from God no matter where we are. Because of Jesus and what He did for us, we have direct access to Him…
I don’t think any Catholic would disagree with your last paragraph. The sentences I underlined in your posting indicate that you don’t know what ‘those things that we do at mass’ mean to Catholics.

We listen to the scripture readings, sing, pray aloud, hear a sermon about how to apply the readings to our lives. So far so good, we may or may not ‘get’ much out of this. But then we enter into the part of the mass where we actually join with Jesus in his offering of himself (and us) to the Father. If you are in the church and look around, we may not always look like something awesome is happening but it is. It is as though we are back at the foot of the cross, at the last supper, experiencing with the apostle John what he saw at the beginning of the book of Revelations. We believe that this always happens at every mass. It isn’t a matter of our emotions or if we feel particularly uplifted. Objectively, in a unique way, we are united to God.

Also, it’s not just our personal option to be at mass. God himself invites us to be there and the Church tells us it’s our obligation to be there.

So, yes, we always have direct access to God. But at mass God is acting and he wants us to be there. It’s that important.
 
God will give you strength and many other things by just asking Him. If you feel God gives you strength by doing those things you do in church, then that is your personal experience.

Like I mentioned before, I am not doing this alone…far from it. I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me who strengthens me and works through me. “I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength” I know the strength does not come from me…and I would never be so proud to think so. I goto to church and I worship God and fellowship with other believers…and God blesses me there as well…I am just trying to show you that we can receive anything from God no matter where we are. Because of Jesus and what He did for us, we have direct access to Him…
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

A thought occurs to me. St. Paul writes:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy (RSV) 2:5.)
Εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς (1Timothy (GRA) 2:5.)
unus enim Deus unus et mediator Dei et hominum homo Christus Iesus (1 Timothy (VUL) 2:5.)​

This gives a strong emphasis to the word “man,” which is the union of body and spirit.

Does the claim that one does not need the Church, which is Christ’s Body, constitute a substitution of the Holy Spirit for the “man Christ Jesus,” as the mediator between God and men?

The Spirit, after all, is the Helper, not the Savior or the Mediator.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
I do not know if you agree or not…but I know many Catholics, Baptists and other members of various churches that do not have a personal relationship with God.
And this is mainly evident in their life. Just because you belong to a church does not mean you have a “personal” relationship with God.
Well, some people go to church out of custom, not conviction. Some people are baptized but not well formed in the faith. Each person’s faith journey is unique. I’ve known people to come into a personal relationship with God as a result of a friend sharing with them what God has done in his own life. Those people you know may need that kind of witness.
 
. . . I do not know if you agree or not…but I know many Catholics, Baptists and other members of various churches that do not have a personal relationship with God.

And this is mainly evident in their life. Just because you belong to a church does not mean you have a “personal” relationship with God.
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

I am not sure what people mean when they use this phrase, “personal relationship with God.” However, I think that to limit one’s understanding of salvation to this concept is to underestimate the success of the Savior.

The Church saves many who have no personal relationships with anyone. A child who is too young to form coherent intentions or to be morally responsible for his actions or thoughts, a mentally or physically crippled person who lacks sufficient moral capacity, and an injured or elderly person who has lost these capacities are all within the scope of salvation by grace infused by the Sacraments. The intentions which they are unable to form are supplied by the Holy Church and through the sacraments of grace they are saved.

Similarly, those who live and die without learning of the Church and her faith are still within the scope of her sanctification, since the offering of the Holy Mass includes all worthy actions and intensions in the entire material creation. This is only possible because the Church acts on behalf of all creatures; the members of the Church act as representatives of the entire material universe, not of themselves personally.

“You are the salt of the earth.” (Matthew (RSV) 5:13.)

“Whatsoever sacrifice thou offerest, thou shalt season it with salt, neither shalt thou take away the salt of the covenant of thy God from thy sacrifice. In all thy oblations thou shalt offer salt.” (Leviticus (DRA) 2:13.)

If salvation were limited to personal relationships of those who form particular intentions, then much of material creation would be lost to God’s saving work.

The Savior’s action through His Church is much more effective.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
I agree with your first sentence, but I feel like you didn’t read what I said; it isn’t me doing things in Church, it is God.

The I-don’t-need-Church approach reminds of the story of the man who was sick, and prayed God heal him. His wife encouraged him to go to the doctor, but he said, “God will heal me, I asked him to.” When his children asked him to see a doctor, he went, but told the doctor, “God will heal me, I asked Him to.”
Not long after he died. When arriving at heaven, he asked God, “why did you not heal me?” God responded, “I tried. I sent your wife and children to tell you to see a doctor, and I even sent a doctor.”
God provided the Church as a special place for us to receive His means of grace in word and sacrament.

I was happy to read that you do attend worship.

BLessings,
Jon
You have taken what I said out of context. I do not have the “I-dont-need-church” approach nor did I state that. Where you say Church is a special place for us to receive His means of grace…I agree 100% 🙂 However, we can receive God’s grace outside of Church. God gives us His grace and mercy in and out of Church.
 
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

I am not sure what people mean when they use this phrase, “personal relationship with God.” However, I think that to limit one’s understanding of salvation to this concept is to underestimate the success of the Savior.

The Church saves many who have no personal relationships with anyone. A child who is too young to form coherent intentions or to be morally responsible for his actions or thoughts, a mentally or physically crippled person who lacks sufficient moral capacity, and an injured or elderly person who has lost these capacities are all within the scope of salvation by grace infused by the Sacraments. The intentions which they are unable to form are supplied by the Holy Church and through the sacraments of grace they are saved.

Similarly, those who live and die without learning of the Church and her faith are still within the scope of her sanctification, since the offering of the Holy Mass includes all worthy actions and intensions in the entire material creation. This is only possible because the Church acts on behalf of all creatures; the members of the Church act as representatives of the entire material universe, not of themselves personally.

“You are the salt of the earth.” (Matthew (RSV) 5:13.)

“Whatsoever sacrifice thou offerest, thou shalt season it with salt, neither shalt thou take away the salt of the covenant of thy God from thy sacrifice. In all thy oblations thou shalt offer salt.” (Leviticus (DRA) 2:13.)

If salvation were limited to personal relationships of those who form particular intentions, then much of material creation would be lost to God’s saving work.

The Savior’s action through His Church is much more effective.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
I was making a general statement that applies to the people that have the knowledge of Jesus…not the exceptions that are unable to obtain this knowledge. You are correct in everything you said.

My statement goes back to my first statement at the start of this forum. And you may not agree…but just because one goes to church, goes through the sacraments ect, does not mean you will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The Word says if you claim to have Christ in you, then you will walk as He did. How does Christ know you? It is very possible to join a church, participate in the sacraments, traditions, ect… and not have an everyday personal relationship with Jesus. Jesus said that everyone that cries Lord Lord will not inherit the Kingdom…your heart can be far from Jesus and do all the above things.
 
ServantofChrist,

When responding to John Hiner you said,
I was making a general statement that applies to the people that have the knowledge of Jesus…not the exceptions that are unable to obtain this knowledge. You are correct in everything you said.
My statement goes back to my first statement at the start of this forum.
I think you misunderstood what Mr. Hiner was trying to bring across. I think his point is that it is misguided to state that one must have a “personal relationship” with Christ to be saved. The love of God is actually, and exclusively, carried out in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, not through someone’s personal relationship.

The fact that those who do not have personal relationships may still be saved by the Catholic Chuch’s offering of the Sacraments is a proof and restatement of this reality. If this disagrees with your opinion or your original post it is probably worth discussing, it is certainly pertinent to how we should understand the means of God’s salvation.

I hope this helps.

May the Peace of Christ be with us.
  • Eric Closs
P.S. - I believe when someone capitalizes Church or refers to Her as the Church, this is properly a reference to the Catholic Church, not other denominations that use the title “church”. I thought there might be a confusion of this term in the discussion thus far.
 
I was making a general statement that applies to the people that have the knowledge of Jesus…not the exceptions that are unable to obtain this knowledge. You are correct in everything you said.

My statement goes back to my first statement at the start of this forum. And you may not agree…but just because one goes to church, goes through the sacraments ect, does not mean you will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The Word says if you claim to have Christ in you, then you will walk as He did. How does Christ know you? It is very possible to join a church, participate in the sacraments, traditions, ect… and not have an everyday personal relationship with Jesus. Jesus said that everyone that cries Lord Lord will not inherit the Kingdom…your heart can be far from Jesus and do all the above things.
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

Dear ServantofChrist:

I appreciate the distinction you are making. There is certainly a difference between being saved and reaching maturity in the Faith and taking up the work of the Church. The emphasis on “personal relationship” (whatever is meant by this) has a different aspect for me, as a person who was baptized about eight days after birth.

You are correct that many in the Church will not be saved. Christ and His Church have taught this from the beginning – the tares grow with the wheat, to be separated at the harvest. (Cf. Matthew 13:36 - 43.) The difference is that the sanctifying grace of the Sacraments saves one. One then has salvation to lose. The baptized who will not be saved will fail because they have sinned mortally. Hence, a baptized infant who dies is saved, because he never had the moral capacity to sin mortally. For a dying person who has the faith and capacity to accept the Last Rites, as St. James tells us, “the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up,” (James (RSV) 5:15).

The Sacraments allow us to do the work of Christ. After baptism, our damnation can only come from our laying that work down. It is a very generous offer.

The experience of “community” may be different inside and outside of the Catholic Church. In some communities outside the Catholic Church, one might fall into a habit of looking around and wondering, is that person enthusiastic enough, holy enough, or inspired enough to be saved? An observer of a similar disposition in a Catholic Church would have to look around and wonder, has that person sinned badly enough to be damned? Since one cannot know the answer to this rather depressing question without a special revelation in any given case, this habit of guessing is not a very tempting activity for thoughtful Catholics. A much more useful question is, what do we have to offer this week?

There is a great deal of truth to what you say about the vigor and quality with which we do the work. As we mature and our capacities for good increase, what is demanded of us increases. Hence, an adult who has been baptized may sin mortally, by deciding not to give what is reasonably expected of him in the service of the Kingdom of God. A sin of omission can be mortal.

On the other hand, as our capacities deminish, with age, illness, or injury, we become less and less active. Like votive candles, our lives burn as perpetual offerings in praise of God, so long as we do not become so bitter or ungrateful as to disavowel our intention to honor God. For some, with dementia for example, the moral capacity to sin mortally may be lost, and so their lives burn as pure offerings, so long as the grace offered by the Church is alive in them.

As I said, it is a very generous offer.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

PS It is important to distinguish between the Catholic Church (under the Roman Pontiff) and other bodies that call themselves “churches.” Everything I have said applies most directly to the Holy Roman Catholic Church; they also apply to those “true churches” who have valid apostolic succession but are not in full communion with Rome. The issues regarding various ecclesial communities, which have been founded by people other than the Apostles, are much more complex, some having valid baptism, but not all, some having valid matrimony, but not all, etc. Please do not generalize what I have said about the Sacraments to the practices of communities outside the Catholic Church, especially to those which have been founded since A.D. 1400.
 
You have taken what I said out of context. I do not have the “I-dont-need-church” approach nor did I state that. Where you say Church is a special place for us to receive His means of grace…I agree 100% 🙂 However, we can receive God’s grace outside of Church. God gives us His grace and mercy in and out of Church.
I didn’t me to imply that. Sorry.

Absolutely, one can find God’s grace in all parts of life.

Jon
 
. . .

Absolutely, one can find God’s grace in all parts of life.

Jon
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

In the context of this discussion, this statement bears some clarification. There are two types of grace. If one does not distinguish between them, the meaning of the quoted statement can be very misleading. Also the word “find” could have several meanings with regard to grace and it is unclear what is meant here.

Could someone clarify this?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

In the context of this discussion, this statement bears some clarification. There are two types of grace. If one does not distinguish between them, the meaning of the quoted statement can be very misleading. Also the word “find” could have several meanings with regard to grace and it is unclear what is meant here.

Could someone clarify this?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
John,
By “find” I do not mean as when one is looking for something, “oh, I found it”.
If you read any of the posts I’ve made, I’ve been very clear that Christ established the Church to preach the word and administer the sacraments. It is where we receive the means of Grace, and the forgiveness of sins through Baptism, confession and Holy Absolution, and the Eucharist. We also received His grace through Confirmation, and Marriage. No where else but the Church can we receive these means of Grace.
That God is with us through our everyday activities is also evidence of His grace. He hears our prayers and knows our joys and sorrows, and watches over us. But this does not stand in the stead of what the Church gives us.
Hope that explains better what I mean.

Jon
 
John,
By “find” I do not mean as when one is looking for something, “oh, I found it”.
If you read any of the posts I’ve made, I’ve been very clear that Christ established the Church to preach the word and administer the sacraments. It is where we receive the means of Grace, and the forgiveness of sins through Baptism, confession and Holy Absolution, and the Eucharist. We also received His grace through Confirmation, and Marriage. No where else but the Church can we receive these means of Grace.
That God is with us through our everyday activities is also evidence of His grace. He hears our prayers and knows our joys and sorrows, and watches over us. But this does not stand in the stead of what the Church gives us.
Hope that explains better what I mean.

Jon
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

Dear “JonNC:”

Thank you. That is precisely the clarification that I sought. Thank you for your precision.

My usual terms for this distinction are “sanctifying grace,” which God has made available through the Apostolic succession, and “actual grace,” which God provides directly and in all circumstances. Complicating the picture, one can increase the degree of sanctifying grace, once one has received it, by engaging in meritorious activities anywhere and making good use of the actual graces provided by God.

Incidentally, I freely and gratefully acknowledge that all of your posts in this thread have been careful, thoughtful, clear, and very helpful. I have enjoyed them very much. It would not be overstating to acknowledge that they have been actual graces.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner
 
Laudetur Iesus Christus.

Dear “JonNC:”

Thank you. That is precisely the clarification that I sought. Thank you for your precision.

My usual terms for this distinction are “sanctifying grace,” which God has made available through the Apostolic succession, and “actual grace,” which God provides directly and in all circumstances. Complicating the picture, one can increase the degree of sanctifying grace, once one has received it, by engaging in meritorious activities anywhere and making good use of the actual graces provided by God.

Incidentally, I freely and gratefully acknowledge that all of your posts in this thread have been careful, thoughtful, clear, and very helpful. I have enjoyed them very much. It would not be overstating to acknowledge that they have been actual graces.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner
And his peace with you, John,
You are kind. Actually, I should have used the term sanctifying Grace with the OP, as that might have helped me clarify. I’ve learned from our dialogue. Thanks.

Jon
 
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