A Lutheran church on Eucharistic Adoration and the Corpus Christi feast

[Julian0404]

OK, then to paraphrase the apology in comparison to my Catholic foundation:

Lutherans affirm that the true presence of Jesus is in the bread and the action which creates that transubstantiation is the individuals belief in the words “given and shed for you for the remission of sins, . . . For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation”?

So, the Pastor or Priest (what is the proper title) does not interact with the Holy Spirit, but instead each individual interacts with the Holy Spirit?

And do you declare it “transubstantiation” or “consubstantiation” or other?

 

[TriuneUnity]

OK, then to paraphrase the apology in comparison to my Catholic foundation:

Lutherans affirm that the true presence of Jesus is in the bread and the action which creates that transubstantiation is the individuals belief in the words “given and shed for you for the remission of sins, . . . For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation”?

So, the Pastor or Priest (what is the proper title) does not interact with the Holy Spirit, but instead each individual interacts with the Holy Spirit?

No. What makes the Sacrament the Sacrament is it being celebrated according to Christ’s command and institution. Proper belief means worthy reception, but the belief does not create the presence. Christ’s promise to be in, with, and under the bread and wine when His sacrament is celebrated creates the presence.

And do you declare it “transubstantiation” or “consubstantiation” or other?

Neither. The term consubstantiation was coined by a 17th century Reformed theologian to explain the Lutheran view.

 

[Third_Day]

including this one from Cr. Ratzinger:including this one from Cr. Ratzinger:

Quote:
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper
Jon

Where can I find this quote from Cardinal Ratzinger so I can read it in context?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Man, we have one thread about Lutherans with Eucharistic Adoration, another thread about Lutheran rosaries, sheesh, next thing we’ll have Marian Apparitions at a Missouri Synod Convention! If too many more Catholic things get included, they might as well come back to Rome

 

[Oumashta]

Man, we have one thread about Lutherans with Eucharistic Adoration, another thread about Lutheran rosaries, sheesh, next thing we’ll have Marian Apparitions at a Missouri Synod Convention! If too many more Catholic things get included, they might as well come back to Rome

 

[JonNC]

=Julian0404;6536383]
Lutherans affirm that the true presence of Jesus is in the bread and the action which creates that transubstantiation is the individuals belief in the words “given and shed for you for the remission of sins, . . . For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation”?

As Triune Unity said, no. I think Catholics and Lutherans agree that even the unworthy receive His body and blood when they eat and drink, except it is to their condemnation.

So, the Pastor or Priest (what is the proper title) does not interact with the Holy Spirit, but instead each individual interacts with the Holy Spirit?

Either title is fine, but he, too, receives the presence of the Holy Spirit.

And do you declare it “transubstantiation” or “consubstantiation” or other?

I personally don’t declare it either. I declare it His body and blood. But the fact that you declare it Transubstantiation does not make it happen or not. Christ’s promise and the Holy Spirit do. So, even though I disagree with the doctrine of Transubstantiation does not put me in a position of denying the validity of Catholic Eucharist.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Where can I find this quote from Cardinal Ratzinger so I can read it in context?

Sure,
It was in the link I provided in that post. Paragraph 107.

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Jon

 

[PJM]

=Lutheranteach;6514872]Adoration isn’t unheard of, but not all that common. And, YES LUTHERANS DO BELIEVE IN A LITERAL TRANSFORMATION

Only in the Catholic Church is Chrsit really present in the Eucharist.

Why?

Because of Apolostolic Succession being absolutely necessary to make Christ present. Luther was :

1. A priest, not a Bishop [unable to Ordain others] and 2. was excommunicated so the sacraments except for Baptism [vaild in all Christian churches that use water and thye Trinity] and marriage because it is the bride and groom themselves, NOT the minister that validate the sacramental marriage. The minister is only a whitness.

Love and prayers,

 

[JonNC]

=PJM;6537355]Only in the Catholic Church is Chrsit really present in the Eucharist.

What about Orthodox, and PNCC, and some other Old Catholics. The ALCC (Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church) says that Rome considers their sacrament valid but irregular (because they are not yet in communion with Rome.

Because of Apolostolic Succession being absolutely necessary to make Christ present. Luther was :

1. A priest, not a Bishop [unable to Ordain others] and 2. was excommunicated so the sacraments except for Baptism [vaild in all Christian churches that use water and thye Trinity] and marriage because it is the bride and groom themselves, NOT the minister that validate the sacramental marriage. The minister is only a whitness.

Of course, this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Well, not exactly. In the 15th century, Cistercian abbots were authorized to ordain, even though not bishops. There were also presbyter ordinations in the early church.
But, as I said, you are presenting the position of the CC regarding Lutheran orders and sacraments, as well you should. We just disagree.

Jon

 

[peary]

At my former Lutheran church in Atlanta, we celebrated the Corpus Christi feast just like Catholics, as well as had Eucharistic Adoration services every Friday.

The sacrament was reserved and removed from the tabernacle by the pastor in the same manner as a Catholic priest would. It was then placed in a traditional monstrance and adored.

My question is: Is it common for Lutherans to do this? I know we Lutherans don’t teach a literal transformation in the Eucharist, so what’s the point in doing either?

Well, it does show that they have a great devotion to Christ. However, it actually means little because Lutheran priests do not have valid orders and cannot consecrate.

 

[JonNC]

Well, it does show that they have a great devotion to Christ. However, it actually means little because Lutheran priests do not have valid orders and cannot consecrate.

Yes, that is the Catholic position, and as I said to PJM in the post just before yours, you do well to express it. In that post I also expressed our position.

Jon

 

[Holly3278]

What good is it for a Lutheran church to have Eucharistic adoration when they don’t even have a valid Eucharist? If you go to adoration at a Lutheran church, I can guarantee that the only thing you’re sitting there and looking at is a plain old wafer.

 

[JonNC]

What good is it for a Lutheran church to have Eucharistic adoration when they don’t even have a valid Eucharist? If you go to adoration at a Lutheran church, I can guarantee that the only thing you’re sitting there and looking at is a plain old wafer.

Yes, that is the Catholic teaching. Your’s is the third post in the last 5 to make this statement. This difference between Lutherans and Catholics will be changed neither by Catholics repeating it nor by Lutherans responding to it.

For now, we must live with the fact that our relationship on this issue is asymmetrical - The CC denies the validity of our sacrament, while Lutherans accept yours. I guess we’ll all have to pray for reconciliation all the harder.

Cardinal Ratzinger

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries.

Jon

 

[blazerdave]

Not trying to stir anything up here, but perhaps some of the Catholic posters might want to consider how it feels to have one’s beloved Sacrament constantly insulted and dismissed. If the Catholic position is such, so be it…that assertion is well known. But to needlessly remind non-Catholics of how invalid and bogus their Sacraments and ministers are does little to promote charity or good will among Christians.

 

[JonNC]

If you go to adoration at a Lutheran church, I can guarantee that the only thing you’re sitting there and looking at is a plain old wafer.

Holly,
I request that you consier for a moment how you feel, what your reaction is, when you see or hear non-catholics refer to Catholics as “wafer-worshippers”.
Now that you’ve done so, you can be sure that the same feelings take place on this side, too.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Jon,

I’ve been reading the Common Statement of the Tenth Round of the U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue that you provided. I’m blown away at how open it is to the grace, presence, and love of Christ that is received in the Lutheran Eucharist. I think there are a lot of hard-core Catholics in here who would not want to read that document, especially paragraph 107 that you referenced earlier, because it is not the exceptionalism and triumphalist tone I hear around here sometimes. It’s actually very open, charitable, and hopeful in Catholic-Lutheran dialogue while at the same time shedding some light on and hope to Lutherans. It makes it clear that the Lutheran (and presumably Anglican) Holy Communion is not some silly, empty, cold wafer with nothing within.

Thanks for sharing that document. I’ve read large sections of it and will continue to read more. Thanks again, Jon!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Holly,
This post is off-the-hook, wow…on a charitability scale, gotta tell ya this scores negative integers…

Did you read paragraph 107 that Jon referenced earlier? Go read it and take a minute and look at where this document comes from…

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

What good is it for a Lutheran church to have Eucharistic adoration when they don’t even have a valid Eucharist? If you go to adoration at a Lutheran church, I can guarantee that the only thing you’re sitting there and looking at is a plain old wafer.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Jon,

I’ve been reading the Common Statement of the Tenth Round of the U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue that you provided. I’m blown away at how open it is to the grace, presence, and love of Christ that is received in the Lutheran Eucharist. I think there are a lot of hard-core Catholics in here who would not want to read that document, especially paragraph 107 that you referenced earlier, because it is not the exceptionalism and triumphalist tone I hear around here sometimes. It’s actually very open, charitable, and hopeful in Catholic-Lutheran dialogue while at the same time shedding some light on and hope to Lutherans. It makes it clear that the Lutheran (and presumably Anglican) Holy Communion is not some silly, empty, cold wafer with nothing within.

Thanks for sharing that document. I’ve read large sections of it and will continue to read more. Thanks again, Jon!

Amen to that, because it goes a HUGE way toward reconciliation. I realize that Ratzinger’s and the USCCB’s statement is not doctrine per se, but if the Church were to state publicly that the Sacrament as celebrated in Lutheran churches is valid, it would be a giant leap forward not only for Rome, but for confessional Lutherans as well. It’s interesting to me considering the attitude that is often taken on these forums, that for once, the Lutherans have Ratzinger on their side LOL

 

[peary]

Not trying to stir anything up here, but perhaps some of the Catholic posters might want to consider how it feels to have one’s beloved Sacrament constantly insulted and dismissed. If the Catholic position is such, so be it…that assertion is well known. But to needlessly remind non-Catholics of how invalid and bogus their Sacraments and ministers are does little to promote charity or good will among Christians.

Our beloved Sacrament has been continually insulted and dismissed for over two-thousand years. It also was dismissed and insulted by the vast majority of protestant denominations, even to this day, so don’t attempt to be the victim here. The fact remains that the Church (and myself) believe what the earliest of Christians in the Church believed, and that there is a valid ministerial priesthood. When these began to be questioned and readily dismissed, then so did the validity of orders.

It is not a matter that we are not promoting charity or goodwill among Christians. Rather, as the bible says, the truth will set you free. And keeping quiet about it, or not bringing it up does a great disservice to our separated brethren.

 

[blazerdave]

so don’t attempt to be the victim here.

What the heck gave you the idea that I’m attempting to be a victim?