A Lutheran church on Eucharistic Adoration and the Corpus Christi feast

[peary]

The Novus Ordo Mass of Vatican II was a huge Catholic council with the pope presiding and yet you claim it called untold fracturing for forty years? What higher authority can we have in Catholicism than the papacy at the helm of a major, major council? And at what point can we trust huge councils/synods of bishops? The USCCB is a huge body and their meetings are not small-scale shindigs at the Comfort Sweets Motel. What good are such synodal meetings and what good are major papal-summoned councils if we can arbitrarily toss them? Vatican II’s legacy is written throughout the catechism. It’s fine to not agree with the councils or catechism but I’m afraid that is what makes one not Catholic. I don’t consider these sedavecantist and SSPX’ers to be part of the Church or Catholic anymore.

And, respectfully, ecumenism should be a high priority for ALL OF US as Christ admonished us to “all be one” and we should care for our Protestant brothers and sisters as much as ourselves, hoping for union and common purpose. God bless!

Did you actually read my quote?

Even the Novus Ordo was said to have been assembled ‘prayerfully’ and yet it caused untold fracturing in the Liturgy for the past forty years.

Did you read it? Where did I even mention Vatican II caused a fracturing for forty years? Read it again and again until you get the point. I SAID that the Novus Ordo itself was said to have been assembled ‘prayerfully’ and yet it caused a fracturing of the liturgy - which it most definitely did because of all the nonsense that was allowed to enter into Divine Worship. The Latin Rite still has not gained its prominence in Divine Liturgy. As Pope Benedict XVI has said, a blending of two would enrich both the NO and EF.

As far as ecumenism goes, maybe you should direct your thoughts to the Holy Father himself, who seemingly tired of ecumenism with the Anglicans and went ahead beyond talks to begin to incorporate over a million Anglicans into the Catholic Church. Ecumenism can only go so far before action is required.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A few things, Peary. First of all, I’m not an imbecile. Did I actually read your quote? Yep. And I responded to it. Where do you think the Novus Ordo liturgy comes from? You quoted me here quoting you then asked how dare I misquote you? We have a Who’s on First Abbott and Costello edition going on here…

And secondly, why do assume I haven’t directed my thoughts to the Holy Father? You’d have to be a mind-reader to make such an assumption.

A million Anglicans? I think you’re figuring a touch too high there. I never accused Benedict of having no ecumenical desires. I’ve just disagreed with his moves or tact at times. Bringing back a disgraceful bigotted Holocaust-denier priest in the SSPX wasn’t one of the best moments. And like I said, he could’ve consulted the Archbishop of Canterbury or at least announced his intentions to him before. I think it would’ve been easy and somewhat respectful. A little diplomacy?

And I think the Catholic Church, as far as your liturgy comments are concerned, needs to take a good hard look at herself. The Orthodox have managed to go 2,000 years with no papacy or magisterial oversight and yet their liturgy is untainted and littered with kumbaya hand-holding and guitar-strumming with extraordinary ministers blessing children as they do at my parish. It’s worth thinking about I think. We’ve got issues…

Did you actually read my quote?

Even the Novus Ordo was said to have been assembled ‘prayerfully’ and yet it caused untold fracturing in the Liturgy for the past forty years.

Did you read it? Where did I even mention Vatican II caused a fracturing for forty years? Read it again and again until you get the point. I SAID that the Novus Ordo itself was said to have been assembled ‘prayerfully’ and yet it caused a fracturing of the liturgy - which it most definitely did because of all the nonsense that was allowed to enter into Divine Worship. The Latin Rite still has not gained its prominence in Divine Liturgy. As Pope Benedict XVI has said, a blending of two would enrich both the NO and EF.

As far as ecumenism goes, maybe you should direct your thoughts to the Holy Father himself, who seemingly tired of ecumenism with the Anglicans and went ahead beyond talks to begin to incorporate over a million Anglicans into the Catholic Church. Ecumenism can only go so far before action is required.

 

[Julian0404]

Learning a lot on this thread:

OK, let me read the several links provided to get more insight into how the Catholic Church has discussed the Lutheran Eucharistic service.

And in the meanwhile, Eucharist is a sin if received unworthly, and forgiveness is achieved through confession of sins. And confession of sins was instituted by Jesus upon HIS visit to the apostles in the upper room after HIS resurrection, so how does the Lutheran Church approach confession? Is it approached with the same sacramental presence as the Eucharist, i.e. being given by the Holy Spirit through the priest?

 

[IowaJay]

You cannot have a proper discussion of the Eucharist without understanding its true validation and authenticity. The USCCB is not the total teaching Magisterium of the Church and thereby subject to error. The USCCB does not speak for the entire teaching Magisterium of the Church and, if this is what they seemingly have agreed to, then they are wrong. Just because a person ‘thinks’ he or she has the Real Presence outside of the Catholic Church (if that were possible), does not make it so. Rule of thumb: if the conclusions any organization comes to is in keeping with the teachings of the whole Church, then the conclusions are valid. If not, they are wrong.

So, as a non-Catholic looking into the Catholic faith, where do I go for guidance? A document approved by bishops, which includes a quote by a Cardinal/theologian who would later become Pope?

Or someone on a message board who says they’re wrong?

 

[DV56]

So, as a non-Catholic looking into the Catholic faith, where do I go for guidance? A document approved by bishops, which includes a quote by a Cardinal/theologian who would later become Pope?

Or someone on a message board who says they’re wrong?

Obviously the answer is someone on a message board. If your car needs work, don’t you go to an accountant?

Rule of thumb: if the conclusions any organization comes to is in keeping with the teachings of the whole Church, then the conclusions are valid. If not, they are wrong.

Okay, so what constitutes the whole Church? If part of the Church is wrong, then the Church is no longer whole.

 

[Third_Day]

So, as a non-Catholic looking into the Catholic faith, where do I go for guidance? A document approved by bishops, which includes a quote by a Cardinal/theologian who would later become Pope?

Or someone on a message board who says they’re wrong?

Theologians, like Cardinal Ratzinger, speculate. They do not make dogma. Bishops, alone, do not make dogma.The document does not say Lutherans have a valid priesthood. That is a huge problem.

 

[Third_Day]

=gurneyhalleck1;6540349]. Where do you think the Novus Ordo liturgy comes from?

Not from Vatican II. The guidelines laid out in the Constitution on the Liturgy were not implemented, they were “interpreted” by the commission that followed Vatican II

.The Orthodox have managed to go 2,000 years with no papacy or magisterial oversight and yet their liturgy is untainted and littered with kumbaya hand-holding and guitar-strumming with extraordinary ministers blessing children as they do at my parish. It’s worth thinking about I think. We’ve got issues…

You can’t blame Vatican II for any of the above.

 

[JonNC]

Learning a lot on this thread:

OK, let me read the several links provided to get more insight into how the Catholic Church has discussed the Lutheran Eucharistic service.

And in the meanwhile, Eucharist is a sin if received unworthly, and forgiveness is achieved through confession of sins. And confession of sins was instituted by Jesus upon HIS visit to the apostles in the upper room after HIS resurrection, so how does the Lutheran Church approach confession? Is it approached with the same sacramental presence as the Eucharist, i.e. being given by the Holy Spirit through the priest?

The short answer is yes. The pastor/confessor acts in Christ’s place to hear confession and announce Holy Absolution. Corporate confession, done at the beginning of every divine service, and private confession are both available. We do have different views of mortal and venial sins, and in private confession there is no requirement to verbalize all sins.

The Lutheran confessions discourage anyone from receiving the sacrament without first confessing and being absolved, and I personally would never do so.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Theologians, like Cardinal Ratzinger, speculate. They do not make dogma. Bishops, alone, do not make dogma.The document does not say Lutherans have a valid priesthood. That is a huge problem.

No one here claims that the documents assert that, from a Catholic view, Lutherans outside of succession have avalid priesthood. The whole reason I brought them into the conversation was to provide information about the changing relationship between Catholics and Lutherans at the leadership level.
It points to hope for a future reconciliation between us, something we should all pray for. The terms of which said reconciliation will be set by our leaders, not by us.

Jon

 

[DV56]

A million Anglicans? I think you’re figuring a touch too high there. I never accused Benedict of having no ecumenical desires. I’ve just disagreed with his moves or tact at times. Bringing back a disgraceful bigotted Holocaust-denier priest in the SSPX wasn’t one of the best moments. And like I said, he could’ve consulted the Archbishop of Canterbury or at least announced his intentions to him before. I think it would’ve been easy and somewhat respectful. A little diplomacy?

And I think the Catholic Church, as far as your liturgy comments are concerned, needs to take a good hard look at herself. The Orthodox have managed to go 2,000 years with no papacy or magisterial oversight and yet their liturgy is untainted and littered with kumbaya hand-holding and guitar-strumming with extraordinary ministers blessing children as they do at my parish. It’s worth thinking about I think. We’ve got issues…

You bet we do!

We have a choir that sings beautifully, but sometimes it sounds more like ballroom music.

EMHC blessing children? That ain’t supposed to be happening.

Many priests have let us down (current scandal not included in this discussion) by allowing liberal changes to the Mass.

Some interesting youtube videos by Cardinal Arinze.

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s

youtube.com/watch?v=EZSYj8PRi7g&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM&feature=related

What a pope he would have made.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Extraordinary Ministers at our parish ALL “bless” kids. I’ve gotten to the point that I actually move my kids out of the way and these EM’s stretch out their arms and TRY to bless them and I act as a human shield LOL…

I hear Amazing Grace and want to cringe from a Catholic view of grace and salvation. I also find it funny that “A Mighty Fortress” is one of the first songs in the hymnal. Talk about irony!

Everybody holds hands during the Pater Noster and it seems like 8 out of 10 people take communion in the hand instead of on the tongue.

Priests take a lot of liberties with the Mass as well. One of the priests likes to “narrate” the Mass and tell us what to do. Drives me nuts.

Add to that the priests lecturing all of us each Sunday morning about how unenthusiastic or unmotivated or messy we are as well as a confirmation program that takes THREE YEARS and 100 hours of community service as a torture program and you’ve got one great parish experience!

You bet we do!

We have a choir that sings beautifully, but sometimes it sounds more like ballroom music.

EMHC blessing children? That ain’t supposed to be happening.

Many priests have let us down (current scandal not included in this discussion) by allowing liberal changes to the Mass.

Some interesting youtube videos by Cardinal Arinze.

youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s

youtube.com/watch?v=EZSYj8PRi7g&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY&feature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM&feature=related

What a pope he would have made.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I hear Amazing Grace and want to cringe from a Catholic view of grace and salvation.

Ha…Not just Catholic. Consider the lyrics of the hymn. It mentions nothing of the cross of Christ, the Sacraments, the forgiveness of sins, or even the name of Jesus. It does, however, contain that quintessential American sentiment. “How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.” Vacuous promotion of an understanding of the Christian religion which maintains that you do not identify the Spirit in the Word, the water, the bread and the wine, but on the faces of people, that the Spirit’s “lighting a flame in the heart,” or “lifting me up,” or “filling me with Your love,” is the experience which identifies me as a Christian. Blech.

I also find it funny that “A Mighty Fortress” is one of the first songs in the hymnal. Talk about irony!

LOL…Do they know that the stanza “That Word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them abideth” refers to the papacy? LOL. Still, it belongs in there over Amazing Drivel!

 

[JonNC]

I hear Amazing Grace and want to cringe from a Catholic view of grace and salvation. I also find it funny that “A Mighty Fortress” is one of the first songs in the hymnal. Talk about irony!

Hey Scott,
I think its great that the CC has discovered “A Mighty Fortress”. A number of years ago, when I had Sirius Radio, I would listern to EWTN on the way to work. One morning, they used the words from “A Mighty Fortress” in their morning devotional. Great stuff.

Jon

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…I think the Catholic Church needs to reach out especially to the Orthodox but when Benedict calls their Church “defective” because it lacks the papacy, that isn’t the greatest starting point olive branch-wise

Well, the Orthodox Church does have that defect. How to say that in a non-offensive manner may be tricky.

Related to this topic: How does one express other churches defective eucharist without being offensive in one’s approach to reconciliation?
gurneyhalleck:

At this point, I think if the Catholic Church can’t reconcile with the Orthodox and are failing on that front, then good luck with Lutherans who have far different views with Rome than Constantinople does.

But it seems that actual agreements have been made with the Lutheran church in the more recent past (Justification) than with the Orthodox…the Assyrian Church of the East being an exception (the Nature of Christ).

 

[gcnuss]

Learning a lot on this thread:
And in the meanwhile, Eucharist is a sin if received unworthly, and forgiveness is achieved through confession of sins. And confession of sins was instituted by Jesus upon HIS visit to the apostles in the upper room after HIS resurrection, so how does the Lutheran Church approach confession? Is it approached with the same sacramental presence as the Eucharist, i.e. being given by the Holy Spirit through the priest?

Here is the Brief Order for Confession and Forgiveness as set forth in the Lutheran Book of Worship (rubrics included):

Brief Order for Confession and Forgiveness

*Stand

The sign of the cross may be made by all in remembrance of their Baptism.
*
P In the name of the Father, and of the + Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
C Amen

P Almighty God, to whom all hearts are open, all desires known, and from whom no secrets are hid: Cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of your Holy Spirit, that we may perfectly love you and worthily magnify your holy name, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
C Amen

P If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

*Kneel/Stand

Silence for reflection and self-examination.*

P Most merciful God,
C we confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen

The minister stands and addresses the congregation.

P Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake, forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the + Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

C Amen

This is used regularly at worship.

 

[SonofMonica]

I just wanted to back up and talk about something that JonNC brought up, and that’s the fact that Lutherans practice adoration during their Eucharistic liturgy, but not outside of it. The implication seemed to be that Lutherans view Eucharistic adoration as oriented toward the reception of the Eucharist by eating and drinking, whereas Catholics looked at the consecrated host as being completely independent of the Eucharistic celebration. I wanted to make a clarification, because it is Catholic teaching that Eucharistic adoration is to be oriented toward the reception of Holy Communion, as well.

As the diocese of Pittsburgh put it:

The celebration of the Mass is the origin and purpose of the worship shown to the Eucharist outside the Mass. Eucharistic adoration extends Holy Communion in a lasting way even as it prepares the faithful to participate more fully in the celebration of the Mass. It leads us to acknowledge Christ’s marvelous presence in the sacrament and invites us to deeper spiritual union with him in the reception of Holy Communion.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Oldtimer_7
That is the case when you claim that Eucharist cannot be valid because of the priest’s bona fides. In Lutheran practice, we see Eucharist as what God does to us, not as what we do.

REPLY: “Wouldn’t this mean that a lay person could consecrate the Eucharist?”

My comment:

Some of the words used aways in the Catholic Mass at the Consecration are: "“In Him, With Him, and Through Him.” Catholics hold that Eucharist is From God, By God and For God.

The difference is then not in belief, **but what actually takes place **in Catholic Holy Communion, that DOES NOT take place anywhere else.

This most Awesome Sacrament is only valid, and licit in His Church ALONE; and it is the CC alone that Christ permits His Catholic Priest to call down His real Presence. There is no greater reason to be a Catholic.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What about the Orthodox Church, Anglican Church (who by and large have apostolic succession re-infused into their priesthood thanks to the Utrecht co-consecrations with the Old Catholic Church), and Lutheran Churches in Europe that kept apostolic succession as well as the Old Catholic Church, etc?
The difference is then not in belief, **but what actually takes place **in Catholic Holy Communion, that DOES NOT take place anywhere else.

This most Awesome Sacrament is only valid, and licit in His Church ALONE; and it is the CC alone that Christ permits His Catholic Priest to call down His real Presence. There is no greater reason to be a Catholic.

 

[gcnuss]

The difference is then not in belief, **but what actually takes place **in Catholic Holy Communion, that DOES NOT take place anywhere else.

This most Awesome Sacrament is only valid, and licit in His Church ALONE; and it is the CC alone that Christ permits His Catholic Priest to call down His real Presence. There is no greater reason to be a Catholic.

We who are Lutherans understand that this is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. At the same time, we don’t believe that our Lord limits himself and his presence in that way.

 

[PJM]

=gurneyhalleck1;6545130]What about the Orthodox Church, Anglican Church (who by and large have apostolic succession re-infused into their priesthood thanks to the Utrecht co-consecrations with the Old Catholic Church), and Lutheran Churches in Europe that kept apostolic succession as well as the Old Catholic Church, etc?
The difference is then not in belief, **but what actually takes place **in Catholic Holy Communion, that DOES NOT take place anywhere else.

This most Awesome Sacrament is only valid, and licit in His Church ALONE; and it is the CC alone that Christ permits His Catholic Priest to call down His real Presence. There is no greater reason to be a Catholic.

My friend,

I’m always open to learn someting I don’t know.

Can you explain to me please, how either the Church of Egland or Lutherns who I beleive were excommunicated, maintain apolostolic succession?

THANKS