A Major New Study of Religion in the US Has the following to Say About Mormons:

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zerinus said:
At the moment Mormons are the only people who are called saints because they belong to a particular organization. Go figure! 😃
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Self-proclaimed, no less. Saints are usually proclaimed such by someone other than themselves. In fact, most saints would probably protest their own canonization just out of humility. But, I guess if no one else will do it, one has to do it for themselves, heh! 😉
 
The conversions that St. Paul witnessed were many of those who endured great opposition because this is now the time of the Good News and the beginning of the spread of Christianity…so many of them had to keep their identity in secret, enduring persecutions for several hundreds of years.

They really laid their lives down for Christ when humanity was at its darkest moment.
 
SteveVH said:
Self-proclaimed, no less.
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Self-proclaimed may be; but at least proclaimed. The others don’t even make a pretense! 😃
Saints are usually proclaimed such by someone other than themselves.
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Mormons are proclaimed saints by the Lord! 😃
In fact, most saints would probably protest their own canonization just out of humility.
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Real saints are not canonized, they just are, because they happen to belong to a certain organization! 😃
 
zerinus said:
Self-proclaimed may be; but at least proclaimed. The others don’t even make a pretense! 😃
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The others?
zerinus said:
Mormons are proclaimed saints by the Lord! 😃
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Uh huh.
zerinus said:
Real saints are not canonized, they just are, because they happen to belong to a certain organization! 😃
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Real saints are those who have succeded in complete surrender to our Lord. They have diminished and Christ has increased to the point that it is no longer they who live, but Him.

You should do yourself a favor and pick up a book on Catholic saints. Actually, I would recommend reading about the life of a modern saint, say Padre Pio. Some of the stories of ancient saints have really become embelished over the years by well meaning, but over-enthusiastic authors. St. Fuastina is another modern saint who has been well documented without any added frills. I think you would enjoy them.
 
SteveVH said:
The others?
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Yep!
Real saints are those who have succeded in complete surrender to our Lord. They have diminished and Christ has increased to the point that it is no longer they who live, but Him.
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You should do yourself a favor and pick up a book on Catholic saints. Actually, I would recommend reading about the life of a modern saint, say Padre Pio. Some of the stories of ancient saints have really become embelished over the years by well meaning, but over-enthusiastic authors. St. Fuastina is another modern saint who has been well documented without any added frills. I think you would enjoy them.
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I like the Bible better! 😃
 
SteveVH said:
Yes, it does get uncomfortable reading about the lives of the saints and realizing how short you actually fall in comparison. You probably should avoid them. 😉
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Did you know that other old religions like Buddhism and Islam have had their “saints” who are in many ways comparable with Catholic ones?
 
It amazes me how the world comes to use Christian words to fit their own ideologies. I don’t know how you ascertain Islam an old religion when it is still a baby compared to Catholicism.

How are Buddhist and Islam saints comparable to Catholic Saints? such as; St. Peter who denied Jesus 3x’s, St. Paul who persecuted Christians and watched them get stoned to death, St. Augustine an educated worldly man of the flesh… the list goes on. Can they get any worse than the later.
=zerinus;7291270]Did you know that other old religions like Buddhism and Islam have had their “saints” who are in many ways comparable with Catholic ones?
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zerinus said:
Did you know that other old religions like Buddhism and Islam have had their “saints” who are in many ways comparable with Catholic ones?
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I have no doubt that there are many Buddhists who have led exemplary lives. To the extent that they were ignorant of the teachings of Christ, the value of their deeds, the degree of their charity, their humility and adherence to the seeds of truth found in Buddhism, are certainly a measure of how they might react to the Word of God had they heard it. This can only be measured by a loving and merciful God. If they have heard and understand the Gospel, yet reject it, then they are in the same category as anyone else who would reject it.

So I would agree that their lives, as well as many other lives, are in many ways comparable to Catholic saints and I hope to see them in heaven. There is just one difference. We KNOW that the Catholic saints are in heaven. That is why they are called Saints. We have supernatural “proof” through miracles that have undergone the utmost scrutiny. These things are not hidden. You can check it out for yourself - very interesting.

I remember hearing or reading about Mary’s words to the visionaries in Medjugorja. She said that there was a Saint living in Medjugorja and she was Muslim. There are many holy people walking the earth and only God truly know who they are.
 
SteveVH said:
We KNOW that the Catholic saints are in heaven. That is why they are called Saints.
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I agree with most of what you said; only the above presents a problem. Those whom the Bible calls saints, are not saints because they are in heaven, since they are right here on earth. They are not called saints because they are sinless, or lead exemplary lives either, because Paul writes to them and admonishes them that they shouldn’t. They are called saints because of their faith in Jesus Christ, and because they have undergone the sanctifying influence of the sacramental rituals of God’s true Church.
 
He always has to have to last say…to prove Mormons are right…and note how the language is changing drastically from a 100 hundred years ago…

And then to use your insights or understanding of faith to redefine his own.

Mormons claim only their religion is not corrupt.

But they are here to learn reason to redefine their own.
 
zerinus said:
I agree with most of what you said; only the above presents a problem. Those whom the Bible calls saints, are not saints because they are in heaven, since they are right here on earth. They are not called saints because they are sinless, or lead exemplary lives either, because Paul writes to them and admonishes them that they shouldn’t. They are called saints because of their faith in Jesus Christ, and because they have undergone the sanctifying influence of the sacramental rituals of God’s true Church.
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We don’t need to go there again, do we?
 
Zerinus,

After looking at your posts for some time now, I have to agree that your responses are akin to a moving target.

I am disengaging.
 
zerinus said:
I see that as a very positive assessment. It also suggests that Mormons are a very optimistic group. What do you think?
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That sounds accurate to me. LDS are “nice” people. But 'niceness" cannot mask what lies beneath - and that is an incorrect theology that hinders coming to God. For example:
  1. “unusually giving” - tithing is a requirement in return for certain privileges - temple entrance for example;
  2. “relatively friendly” - doesn’t sound too positive to me. Friendliness generally is a mask for missionary minded. Agreed it is dressed up in “I love my neighbour so much I want them to receive the truth” (i.e. mormonism);
  3. “likely to keep their childhood faith” - probably. Bring people together into close knit communities, where family members are mormons, employers are mormons, spouse is a mormon, it becomes difficult to break free. You are looked upon as either sinful ("he must be hiding a moral sin, pornography, adultery probably), or under the influence of the devil.
Look, there is such stigma about leaving mormonism. A priesthood holder will have great punishments heaped upon him. Just remember the 3 ways of being put to death that you agree to in the mormon temple if you divulge the secrets learned there.

Mormonism places itself in between God and the individual. Take marriage. A mormon wife covenants to her husband, who then covenants to God. Mormons are encourage to “follow the prophet”, be obedient to the church. Loyalty to the LDS church brings salvation. Compare that to Catholicism in which the Church is seen as a mother, helping, encouraging, offering. But the emphasis is on the individual relationship with God first and foremost.

How many times have I heard in a LDS meeting: “I know the church is true; I know Joseph smith was a prophet and the book of mormon is the word of god”. Somewhere possibly down the line, “I know Jesus is my saviour”. It’s just an attempt to be built up in stature. The more adamant and tearful the testimony is, the better the individual feels. And of course the children are taught to make the same cute profession, and they are applauded for their great faith. Actually, it is always good for an adult following the child’s testimony to refer to it and to say how their own faith is nothing in comparison to one of these little children. That’s always worth a few points.

Cynical? Yes, I am. But remember I have been attending a mormon church weekly for 25 years. You get such a picture of the “we are better than all of the rest simply because we are LDS and priests”. You see the “keep in line or else” attitude.

So, Zerinus, some nice headlines and undoubtedly true - but they mask (as was your intention) the heresy that lies underneath.

God bless,

Hal.
 
Hal,

You are right in that the Catholic Church is as a mother in nurturing us in our faith in God, but we are to face God directly, and to keep our eyes on Him. It is so easy to give into scandal and then to lose hope in God because of failings of others.

What you are saying we either already know or perceive in Mormonism. I don’t think Joseph Smith even studied Catholicism but drew on the perceptions in his time.

The other is that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all prophets. There is no other message than that given us 2,000 years ago.

And you also should know that we are free to challenge and criticize the actions of the Catholic Church, in fact our priests encourage it so that teachings can be better understood.

God bless you!
 
KathleenGee said:
Hal,

You are right in that the Catholic Church is as a mother in nurturing us in our faith in God, but we are to face God directly, and to keep our eyes on Him. It is so easy to give into scandal and then to lose hope in God because of failings of others.

What you are saying we either already know or perceive in Mormonism. I don’t think Joseph Smith even studied Catholicism but drew on the perceptions in his time.

The other is that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all prophets. There is no other message than that given us 2,000 years ago.

And you also should know that we are free to challenge and criticize the actions of the Catholic Church, in fact our priests encourage it so that teachings can be better understood.

God bless you!
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Agreed. Catholicism is so refreshing after 25 years of being mormon.

Thank you Lord.
 
Hal,

Blessings to you…my former pastor, a Dominican, considered Catholics teaching others to be nice as religious expression was a heresy – his personal opinion.

Thankful you were open to grace and now have come into the universal church. I hope you can help other Mormons continue to search and grow.
 
zerinus said:
I see that as a very positive assessment. It also suggests that Mormons are a very optimistic group. What do you think?
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Hello zerinus,

You are citing two sources; one is a link to the book’s page in Amazon which says nothing about what you are quoting and the other is to an article on a LDS website.

Here are your links again:
  1. amazon.com/American-Grace-Religion-Divides-Unites/dp/1416566716
  2. beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons
I do not have a copy of the book at hand but, from the general information I have managed to obtained in the past few minutes on the web I can note that the title of your thread which was borrowed from the LDS website’s article; is truly misleading. Consider the population of the United States! How can some take such a claim of a ‘Major New Study’ serious? The population of the United States is over 310 MILLION people, how is a questionably selected 3,000 constitute a major study? That’'s ridiculous.

What I see is two professors trying to leave their footprints in history by noting certain true characteristics of the population but imposing forcefully some views to claim that they are able to see a solution which is ultimately not a viable one nor true. But, it gets them a little fame and some money.

Now, if the Princeton University - Survey Research Center conducts an appropriate research as they know how and confirms such SPECULATIONS then I would take it a little more seriously. I would love to see Princeton challenge Harvard on this one. princeton.edu/~psrc/what.html
opr.princeton.edu/cse/?cx=011944897329676384373%3Ayr8ay1y85_0&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=religion&siteurl=opr.princeton.edu%2F#943

Furthermore, if indeed what is being quoted by you is in the book, how is it that others are quoting mathematically contradictory information from the same book?
powells.com/blog/?author=1052

As for Campbell and Notre Dame all I can say is that it is really sad what is going on over there. Truly, sad. Campbell is a professor at Notre Dame yet, has apparently never encountered a community of some of the most joyful people on earth - nuns. It is one thing to be ‘happy’ and another to be ‘joyful’. Poor Campbell, he is surrounded by riches, the finest treasures on earth, beauty and truth but he is blind.
Sincerely,

Abba
 
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