A Mass for Sinners

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lelhajj said:
My personal opinion about the repetition of some phrases during mass or while praying the Rosary is that sometimes we just repeat phrases without even being fully conscious of what we are repeating or saying. I like to pray the Rosary, which is really a repetition of phrases, day after day, but there is a special difference when you really start thinking, realizing each wound that our Lord suffered because of us, the great suffering that He must have endured! sometimes while praying the Rosary, it makes me cry all the suffering our Lord must have been through, for us, such insignificant and sinful people! while you are in such a state, every word we pray and repeat takes a total different meaning and feeling in ourselves. It is not important how many times we repeat a phrase but, how do we feel inside ourselves every time we repeat. As i said before, this is just my personal opinion, some people might disagree or agree with me, but, here i am just sharing my point of view.
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I LIKE your point of view. It’s the meditation that one can do when praying a rosary & absorbing yourself with the mysteries. It’s the same with the Stations of the Cross. To meditate on those is to know, in a small way, how much Christ suffered for us & how much He loves us. Also, I like to think that I’ve said enough Hail Mary’s in my life that she WILL be praying for me “now & at the hour of my death”. It sure gives me great comfort to know that.

Now, the following is perhaps not so inspirational…but, not long ago I spent the night in the emergency room because my pharmacy filled a prescription wrong. They ran me through every test imaginable before they found the problem…and yes, I had to be closed up in a long tube & endure the dreaded MRI. I am just a bit claustrophobic & for a solid hour I prayed the Lord’s Prayer & the 23rd psalm over & over again, picturing the green pastures that He has prepared for me. I was so close to panic, both from the 300 mg. of a dangerous drugs that had been accidentally given to me & my claustrophobia. I could never have prayed a long & complicated prayer, nor could I just have “talked to God” at that point. The prayers that I’d recited all of my life…came through for me, though.

Thank you so much for reminding me about that.
 
Monica37 said:
I agree with this thread too. I also like the 2nd Confetior right before Communion. I usually feel very unworthy to receive and saying it again and getting absolution right before Communion gives me some peace of mind. I also think receiving on my knees adds to the feeling that Communion is a **gift **that I am grateful to receive. I know who I am and what I’ve done so all of these things simply make it easier for me to feel like I may be worthy of receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of my Lord and Savior. I am usually really bad at clarifying how I feel about this, but if there were just one thing I would want it would be to receive kneeling and on the tongue. I still don’t understand the change to standing and in the hand, but God knows we have had more than enough threads on that. I just mention it because it makes sense in the context of the TLM having more emphasis on penance.
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Yes, as the title says the TLM. is a Mass for sinners. Thank God it’s back.
 
Onegin said:
Thanks, CradleCath. I agree with your statements about the TLM being a penitential Mass.

For people who are nitpicking about bringing up the OF as a comparison - this is necessary for many traditionalists to explain the “why” of why we love the TLM, and why we make an effort to get there.
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Oh OK, so if I ask you why you love your spouse it’s necessary for you to explain to me in excruciating detail precisely how every other potential partner you met was inferior by comparison? If I ask you why you love your children it’s necessary to tell me how all the other kids you’ve seen just don’t measure up? If I ask you why you love Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa you need to tell me how all the other artists out there suck when you put their paintings next to his?

Funny way of thinking. Rather like all those Obama voters who, when asked why they voted for him, spend way much more time harping on the inferiorities of Bush and McCain and Palin than anything positive that attracted them to Obama. Makes it sound like this Obama fellow can’t be all that great shakes if he doesn’t stand up on his own without the digs at the alternative.
 
LilyM said:
Oh OK, so if I ask you why you love your spouse it’s necessary for you to explain to me in excruciating detail precisely how every other potential partner you met was inferior by comparison? If I ask you why you love your children it’s necessary to tell me how all the other kids you’ve seen just don’t measure up? If I ask you why you love Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa you need to tell me how all the other artists out there suck when you put their paintings next to his?
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Not quite. To use your art example, I’m not saying that all art is awful by comparison to the Mona Lisa, but I will contrast DaVinci with Piet Mondrian to rebut an argument that that all art is basically just different aesthetic expressions of the same beauty. That’s the distinction.

And probably a lot of people who attend the TLM will disagree with me here and say that the TLM is just a different aesthetic preference. I would disagree but that’s another topic entirely.
 
Onegin said:
Not quite. To use your art example, I’m not saying that all art is awful by comparison to the Mona Lisa, but I will contrast DaVinci with Piet Mondrian to rebut an argument that that all art is basically just different aesthetic expressions of the same beauty. That’s the distinction.

And probably a lot of people who attend the TLM will disagree with me here and say that the TLM is just a different aesthetic preference. I would disagree but that’s another topic entirely.
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No - no-one here has argued that in general Mass preference is just a matter of aesthetics. All we’re doing is comparing one particular section of each Mass.

So what we’re doing is more akin to taking, say, Botticelli’s “Spring” and Picasso’s “Demoiselles d’Avignon” and comparing them.

Both are group pictures of females, Botticelli’s being near-nude, Picasso’s being actually nude. So similar subjects being depicted. Done in hugely different styles, of course, but nonethless both magnificent works by artists at the height of their respective powers.

And you’re saying 'well, Picasso’s is objectively the inferior work … '. Well, no. It isn’t, not in any way shape or form. To say that is wrong, just as it would be wrong to say Botticelli’s is the inferior work. They’re both excellent examples beyond comparison of their respective styles.

Of course many people will have a preference for the Picasso, or for the Botticelli. Many others, like myself, can put them side by side and love both equally. But even those who don’t get much on an emotional level from “Spring” themselves, or from “Demoiselles” themselves, dare not deny that both are great works of the first order - too many people who know what they are talking about have pointed out the opposite for it not to be true.

It might be a different thing if you were arguing about the totality of Botticelli’s work and the totality of Picasso’s work, and arguing that one or the other was a more significant artist. Given his longevity, variety and prolific output of work, I’d argue for Picasso in such a case. But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it? We’re just comparing two individual paintings.
 
Like said:
Onegin, Thank you very much! This is something I’ve let bother me for a long time. WHY, do OF people feel the need to jump into this forum & chastise the TLM’ers for their beliefs & opinions?
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No one here chastised "TLM’ers for their beliefs & opinions." While the OP tried to avert any direct criticism of the OF, they still betrayed their intentions by saying such things as “I realized that the TLM is a Mass for sinners…while the Novus Ordo is a Mass for Saints. I am a sinner & the pleading prayers give me hope that God will forgive me” (so, OF participants consider themselves “saints?” That’s a new one on me) and "It’s been two years since I’ve attended a Novus Ordo Mass & I found it very forgettable" .

You guys really have this nasty habit of heaping abuse upon the OF while at the same time striking a "who, me?" posture. I have never, ever read anything here by anyone who constantly nitpicked and criticized the EF like the OF is done by the “traditionalists.” I engaged in a debate here with a woman who tried all of the "Novus Ordo means New Order" nonsense, implying that Pope Paul’s missal was something other than the Mass. I challenged her on everyone of her erroneous posts and got in reply, “why do you hate the Latin Mass.” I’ll tell you like I told her; I have never read that anyone, ANYONE here has stated that they “hate” the Latin Mass. If you can find an instance of such, then I will gladly eat my hat.

Also, there are many "OF people" who consider themselves Traditional Catholics; the term is not exclusive to those with a preference for the Latin Mass.
 
I’ll say this, a joy to many, a pain to most:

The Traditional Latin Mass is a far more fitting form to express the Roman Catholic faith and its spirituality (as distinguished from Eastern Catholicism). From the prayers at the foot of the altar pleading for mercy, to the words of the Canon whispered in awe and love, the reverentsilence observed by the congregation during this part, Holy Communion received kneeling, the truth of the sacrificial aspect of the Mass emphasised, and the plain distinction made between the priest and the laity.

I would never say that both forms are equal, yes it is the same Sacrifice offered, but one form is far superior to the other in expressing the principles of the Catholic Faith.
 
stuart12 said:
I’ll say this, a joy to many, a pain to most:

The Traditional Latin Mass is a far more fitting form to express the Roman Catholic faith and its spirituality (as distinguished from Eastern Catholicism). From the prayers at the foot of the altar pleading for mercy, to the words of the Canon whispered in awe and love, the reverentsilence observed by the congregation during this part, Holy Communion received kneeling, the truth of the sacrificial aspect of the Mass emphasised, and the plain distinction made between the priest and the laity.

I would never say that both forms are equal, yes it is the same Sacrifice offered, but one form is far superior to the other in expressing the principles of the Catholic Faith.
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Very well said, Stuart! 👍
 
stuart12 said:
I’ll say this, a joy to many, a pain to most:

The Traditional Latin Mass is a far more fitting form to express the Roman Catholic faith and its spirituality (as distinguished from Eastern Catholicism). From the prayers at the foot of the altar pleading for mercy, to the words of the Canon whispered in awe and love, the reverentsilence observed by the congregation during this part, Holy Communion received kneeling, the truth of the sacrificial aspect of the Mass emphasised, and the plain distinction made between the priest and the laity.

I would never say that both forms are equal, yes it is the same Sacrifice offered, but one form is far superior to the other in expressing the principles of the Catholic Faith.
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This post gets 3 thumbs up from me. 👍 👍 👍
 
jonpd said:
When I am at the EF Mass I am following along in the missal, so I say the Confiteor to myself along with the altar boys. Just because you are not praying out loud does not mean that you are not praying.
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You’re right, of course. However, I do appreciate everyone saying the Confiteor aloud (along with many of the other Mass parts, and hearing the Eucharistic Prayer aloud).

That said, there’s much about the EF that I appreciate as well. I think it’s a real shame that that Prayers at the Foot of the Altar were totally abolished, and so many of the genuflections, and that in practice ad orientem was mostly abolished, and so on…
 
stuart12 said:
I’ll say this, a joy to many, a pain to most:

The Traditional Latin Mass is a far more fitting form to express the Roman Catholic faith and its spirituality (as distinguished from Eastern Catholicism). From the prayers at the foot of the altar pleading for mercy, to the words of the Canon whispered in awe and love, the reverentsilence observed by the congregation during this part, Holy Communion received kneeling, the truth of the sacrificial aspect of the Mass emphasised, and the plain distinction made between the priest and the laity.

I would never say that both forms are equal, yes it is the same Sacrifice offered, but one form is far superior to the other in expressing the principles of the Catholic Faith.
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I agree with you. The TLM. expresses the whole of Catholicism & I don’t find that in the Novus Ordo Mass. BTW., you just mentioned the Roman Canon…I have missed it so much these past years. My brother was entered into the hospital today, but barring any emergencies, I’m planning to discuss it tomorrow.

BTW. If my friends here have an extra minute or two, they might say a Hail Mary for my brother, Frank.
 
Bbigam said:
You’re right, of course. However, I do appreciate everyone saying the Confiteor aloud (along with many of the other Mass parts, and hearing the Eucharistic Prayer aloud).

That said, there’s much about the EF that I appreciate as well. I think it’s a real shame that that Prayers at the Foot of the Altar were totally abolished, and so many of the genuflections, and that in practice ad orientem was mostly abolished, and so on…
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While aloud isn’t for me, I realize that many find it inspiring. I, too,
think that the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar reflect a genuine need. They acknowledge that we, & that includes the priest, know that we are worthy to pray this Mass ONLY through the mercy of God.
 
CradleCath said:
I agree with you. The TLM. expresses the whole of Catholicism & I don’t find that in the Novus Ordo Mass. BTW., you just mentioned the Roman Canon…I have missed it so much these past years. My brother was entered into the hospital today, but barring any emergencies, I’m planning to discuss it tomorrow.

BTW. If my friends here have an extra minute or two, they might say a Hail Mary for my brother, Frank.
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Frank will be in our prayers! God bless you and your family!
 
CradleCath said:
Amen to that. There are those who come to this forum just to obfuscate the issues we’re trying to discuss. Best to put them on ignore. 😉
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How very “traditionally” Catholic of you. I take it the virtue of Charity is akin to your distaste for the "Mass for saints," too.
 
Tim

You obviously have a lot of animosity toward traditionals. If you can’t stomach us, what are you doing here? Remember, too, the old and true saying about when you point your finger at someone, four point back at you.
 
Lormar said:
Tim

You obviously have a lot of animosity toward traditionals. If you can’t stomach us, what are you doing here? Remember, too, the old and true saying about when you point your finger at someone, four point back at you.
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Oh yes, the old “you’re so angry, why are you here?” post.

And how many fingers are pointing back at you???
 
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