A more stable home for Monterey, CA. Latin Mass Community

[Exorcist]

And so, toward that end, we move forward here. Glad you like our website!

Are you really moving “forward” or are you further isolating (and thus marginalizing) the celebration of the EF Mass in the diocese?

We are now about a month away from the five year anniversary of Summorum Pontificum being released. Given Bp. Garcia’s support of the celebration of the EF Mass, one really should ask in a critical manner why the demand for the Mass seems to be so limited in the Diocese of Monterey? I think that until that question is honestly asked and answered and then acted upon (a potentially very difficult process), the celebration of the EF Mass will remain very limited within the diocese.

 

[Galgano]

Exorcist,do you have a beef with having a Latin Mass community in Monterey Diocese?

 

[Exorcist]

Exorcist,do you have a beef with having a Latin Mass community in Monterey Diocese?

Just what is a “Latin Mass community?” Yes, it sounds like something that might indeed be divisive.

Originally I had great expectations that the celebration of the EF Mass would flourish within the diocese. I had hoped and prayed that the celebration of the EF Mass would become an integral part of many (if not most) parishes within the diocese. Instead, almost five years from the anniversary of the release of Summorum Pontificum, its celebration remains limited to the two original locations. One location being a small cemetery chapel, the other an isolated effort in an otherwise excellent parish.

That all-consuming desire to be separate ( “TLM community”, TLM-only church", separate website, etc.) by those who celebrate and attend the EF Mass from the rest of the diocese has done a real number on its implementation. The celebration of the EF Mass should become an integral part of those parishes where there is a demand. Virtual “TLM communities” do nothing but divide, isolate and ultimately limit.

 

[Galgano]

Exorcist, do really believe that every church in the diocese was going to have the TLM after SP? It seems that you live in some alternate reality because you must not realize the depth of the hatred for the Latin Mass. I don’t mean the people who attend, I mean Mass itself and the priests who Offer it. We are graced to have what we have. If you wish to be divisive with me, there always room in back pew with my family and me. So remember 1030 at The Cemetary tomorrow.

 

[Exorcist]

Exorcist, do really believe that every church in the diocese was going to have the TLM after SP? It seems that you live in some alternate reality because you must not realize the depth of the hatred for the Latin Mass. I don’t mean the people who attend, I mean Mass itself and the priests who Offer it. We are graced to have what we have. If you wish to be divisive with me, there always room in back pew with my family and me. So remember 1030 at The Cemetary tomorrow.

The ultimate excuse for the EF Mass not catching on! Just more divisive talk. Look hard at my comments. Instead of rudely suggesting “it seems that you live in some alternate reality” really think about actually why the implementation of the EF Mass has been so limited in the diocese.

It’s largely because of the people who celebrate, attend and support the EF Mass! To suggest the EF Mass is “hated” is simply nonsensical. It’s nothing more than a tired, untrue excuse. As long as you and your “TLM community” continue to rely on that as an excuse, the implementation of the EF Mass in the diocese will largely remain a failure.

That ultimate excuse and the desire to be separate ( “TLM community”, TLM-only church", separate website, etc.) by those who celebrate and attend the EF Mass from the rest of the diocese has gravely limited its implementation. First the excuse was Bp. Ryan. Now it’s “hatred for the Latin Mass.” Someday your “TLM community” will need to take responsibility for your actions.

In the end it’s not a matter of “what you have” but what you have done with what you have been given for the greater glory of God.

 

[Galgano]

Exorcist, what actions will we have to answer for? Desiring to have EF parish? Or is there more to this story than meets the eye? Maybe something personal? I wish you could have been there today, it was beautiful.

 

[Exorcist]

Exorcist, what actions will we have to answer for? Desiring to have EF parish? Or is there more to this story than meets the eye? Maybe something personal? I wish you could have been there today, it was beautiful.

“Personal” only in that it would be a gift to see the EF Mass celebrated in a great many more parishes in the diocese as integral parts of each parish in which it is celebrated. That’s just not going to happen given the people who are currently involved with the EF Mass in the diocese.

You offer the opinion that there is “hatred” for the EF Mass (and for those who offer it) in the diocese as an excuse for its very limited offering. That’s untrue. I don’t think most even know or think about the EF Mass in the diocese due to the separatist/divisive actions of those who form what has been called a “TLM community.” The celebration of the EF Mass is largely “off the map” due to the desires of the “TLM community”.

You’ll answer for not telling the truth about the “hatred” you speak of and you’ll answer for the separatist/divisive actions of your “TLM community”. If there is any “hatred” presence is it from members of the “TLM community” for the balance of the diocese.

 

[Galgano]

So what you are saying is anyone wishing for the Latin Mass is divisive. The chapels of the FSSP , The Institute of Christ the King, etc. have their exclusive parishes for the Old Rite. Ergo, they are also divisive as well. Our friend and Bishop has granted Fr Milich and the community of Catholics who desire the Old Rite the use of the Chapel. If you wish you should ask him yourself how you would wish to implement directives in his See. Remember you are always welcome to attend Mass at the Cemetery.

 

[Exorcist]

So what you are saying is anyone wishing for the Latin Mass is divisive. The chapels of the FSSP , The Institute of Christ the King, etc. have their exclusive parishes for the Old Rite. Ergo, they are also divisive as well. Our friend and Bishop has granted Fr Milich and the community of Catholics who desire the Old Rite the use of the Chapel. If you wish you should ask him yourself how you would wish to implement directives in his See. Remember you are always welcome to attend Mass at the Cemetery.

Please don’t ever try to speak for me.

The reason the celebration of the EF Mass hasn’t become far more widespread in the diocese is because of the people currently involved in celebrating and attending it in the diocese. They want to separate themselves from just about everyone else within the diocese and that’s just tragic.

I would attend the EF Mass on a regular basis if it was offered in my parish. I would also attend it if it were offered by the pastor and other resident clergy of St. Paul’s. I have absolutely no desire to attend the EF Mass offered by the local “TLM community.” I have no desire to attend Mass with people who make no effort to be part of the parish in which they attend.

Always remember, the excuse for years was that Bp. Ryan would not allow the EF. Now it’s because people “hate” the EF and the people who celebrate it.

 

[TrueLight]

Please don’t ever try to speak for me.

The reason the celebration of the EF Mass hasn’t become far more widespread in the diocese is because of the people currently involved in celebrating and attending it in the diocese. They want to separate themselves from just about everyone else within the diocese and that’s just tragic.

I would attend the EF Mass on a regular basis if it was offered in my parish. I would also attend it if it were offered by the pastor and other resident clergy of St. Paul’s. I have absolutely no desire to attend the EF Mass offered by the local “TLM community.” I have no desire to attend Mass with people who make no effort to be part of the parish in which they attend.

Always remember, the excuse for years was that Bp. Ryan would not allow the EF. Now it’s because people “hate” the EF and the people who celebrate it.

Exorcist,

I’m reading carefully what you’re saying because I would love to see EF masses packed with standing room only.

Can you go into more of what you mean by the people who attend the EF mass being a integral part of the parish? What would that look like?

The reason there are TLM “communities” is because often it takes a lot of work just to have an EF mass on a regular basis. Usually, if one is lucky, one has a pastor who is open to an EF and allows it. That doesn’t mean the pastor does what needs to be done for it to exist. Usually, it is up to the “TLM community” to promote it, arrange for the visiting priests if the pastor or diocesan priests are unable or willing to celebrate it regular, arrange for the scheduling of the schola, etc.

It can be a lot of work.

Also, for the TLM to thrive in that parish, you need a group of people who are committed to attending it regularly. If you don’t have the attendance, eventually, the mass will be canceled.

This is why you need a TLM community who is there to encourage each other, brainstorm and just be available for the work that is necessary.

 

[Exorcist]

Exorcist,

I’m reading carefully what you’re saying because I would love to see EF masses packed with standing room only.

Can you go into more of what you mean by the people who attend the EF mass being a integral part of the parish? What would that look like?

The reason there are TLM “communities” is because often it takes a lot of work just to have an EF mass on a regular basis. Usually, if one is lucky, one has a pastor who is open to an EF and allows it. That doesn’t mean the pastor does what needs to be done for it to exist. Usually, it is up to the “TLM community” to promote it, arrange for the visiting priests if the pastor or diocesan priests are unable or willing to celebrate it regular, arrange for the scheduling of the schola, etc.

It can be a lot of work.

Also, for the TLM to thrive in that parish, you need a group of people who are committed to attending it regularly. If you don’t have the attendance, eventually, the mass will be canceled.

This is why you need a TLM community who is there to encourage each other, brainstorm and just be available for the work that is necessary.

The last thing you need is a “TLM community.” All they have done in my diocese is isolated themselves from the rest of the diocese.

When SP was promulgated the Bishop of Monterey chose two very nice, willingly accommodating and geographically logical parishes. It made great sense. A great start. Now I will limit my comments to the closest of the two parishes to me – St. Paul’s in Pismo Beach.

There was a lot of enthusiasm before the first EF Mass. There was a lot of positive talk about “finally we can grow the Latin Mass in the diocese.” That was very positive. It even made the local news. The only negative I heard was the desire for a “TLM-only” parish. What for? Why isolate the EF Mass? It’s got a foothold in a great parish thanks to the bishop. Build on that! Then a priest was assigned to celebrate the EF Mass at St. Paul’s. Rather than one of the superb Franciscans of the parish (they are gifted with more than one priest who have experience celebrating the EF Mass), a retired prison chaplain was given the job. A good priest, but an outsider to the parish. Why?

That’s the first thing that gave me pause. It almost guaranteed that this EF Mass would be separated from the rest of St. Paul’s parish. That’s exactly what has happened. The last I heard they were still celebrating low Masses because they did not have the resources for a music director or an organist. That wouldn’t be the case if they were truly an integral part of Saint Paul’s.

I think word of the EF Mass would also have spread through St. Paul’s and the rest of the deanery far better had the Mass been an integral part of the parish from the very beginning. It would have had instant credibility. Attending the EF Mass at St. Paul’s is not like being a St. Paul’s parishioner who chooses to attend the EF Mass. It’s like attending a Mass at a rented church by a group who wants to be isolated from everyone else. It’s not a positive feeling.

I attended the very first EF Mass post SP at St. Paul’s. The church had to be 3/4 full. While I wasn’t impressed with the celebration of the Mass, I was impressed with how many were in attendance. They priest didn’t have much to say after Mass except that women should cover their heads the following week. I returned about 3 months later. There were far fewer. It dwindled a bit more and that’s the level I have noticed for the past several years. Very sad.

 

[TrueLight]

There was a lot of enthusiasm before the first EF Mass. There was a lot of positive talk about “finally we can grow the Latin Mass in the diocese.” That was very positive. It even made the local news. The only negative I heard was the desire for a “TLM-only” parish. What for? Why isolate the EF Mass?

Okay. I see what you’re saying.

Why a TLM only parish?

I hesitate to say anything because:

1. It’s too early for me to get jumped on and two
2. I don’t want to speak for prettiefly because I don’t know anything about his or her community.

I will say that unlike what is commonly promulgated on CAF, the majority of people who regularly attend TLMs have a certain traditional mindset in common and certain traditional practices and devotions in common (like the wearing of the mantilla), for example, fasting, abstinence, courtship rules, modesty, etc. You may or may not find it in the larger community. It is a bit deeper than just preference for the EF.

Like attracts like.

In a TLM only parish, the priests and laity are generally on the same page when it comes to spiritual matters.

Is it wrong to separate? Maybe.

Nevertheless, there already exists TLM only communities with the approval of the Pope.

I see both sides of the arguments for having an EF integrated in the parish and also for having TLM only parishes.

 

[Rich_C]

Exorcist, I think you’re being unfair to laypeople who promote the EF Mass. The hurdles are great. Also, those above 30 who have the resources to promote it probably remember being marginalized and excluded from parish life for decades before Pope Benedict issued Summorum Pontificum. No wonder they do not place as much value on being part of those parishes as you do. It will take more than 5 years to erase 40 years of division, and the blame can’t be cast primarily on the folks who just want the old Mass.

 

[Cowboy2012]

Those who assist at the TLM, as TrueLight just wrote, often are on the same page as their fellow attendee and priest then those who do not assist at TLM’s. It may not be sweet news, but it is more true then not.
As Rich C indirectly touched upon,marginalisation was thrust on folks such as this over 40 years ago. I don’t know how old you are(I can’t go that far back myself) but the powers that be forced many a soul to the point that the community that was at their home parish became foreign to them. It was not what one had be brought up in. Again, facts are not always pleasant, but they are always facts.
I know from experience that people are still looking for a refuge from a lot of nonsense that has been going. Even though I have a little different view on some of these things, I know the feeling about wanting orthodoxy and not wanting children, if in the picture, to be exposed to, let us just say, questionable practices.
As to the retired priest coming in, I don’t know the back story, maybe the pastor is a busy man and asked them to find a priest to ease the burden. Also, retired priests can maybe take care of the sickcalls, do catechism for converts, spiritual direction/confession, etc.
Just things to ponder.
CB

 

[Exorcist]

Okay. I see what you’re saying.

Why a TLM only parish?

I hesitate to say anything because:

1. It’s too early for me to get jumped on and two
2. I don’t want to speak for prettiefly because I don’t know anything about his or her community.

I will say that unlike what is commonly promulgated on CAF, the majority of people who regularly attend TLMs have a certain traditional mindset in common and certain traditional practices and devotions in common (like the wearing of the mantilla), for example, fasting, abstinence, courtship rules, modesty, etc. You may or may not find it in the larger community. It is a bit deeper than just preference for the EF.

Like attracts like.

In a TLM only parish, the priests and laity are generally on the same page when it comes to spiritual matters.

Is it wrong to separate? Maybe.

Nevertheless, there already exists TLM only communities with the approval of the Pope.

I see both sides of the arguments for having an EF integrated in the parish and also for having TLM only parishes.

What “mindset” is that? To be separatists? To isolate themselves from the very parish in which they congregate? St. Paul’s is a very welcoming parish. The people (and perhaps the priest) who attend and celebrate the EF Mass have chosen to isolate themselves and that’s terribly sad.

 

[Exorcist]

Exorcist, I think you’re being unfair to laypeople who promote the EF Mass. The hurdles are great. Also, those above 30 who have the resources to promote it probably remember being marginalized and excluded from parish life for decades before Pope Benedict issued Summorum Pontificum. No wonder they do not place as much value on being part of those parishes as you do. It will take more than 5 years to erase 40 years of division, and the blame can’t be cast primarily on the folks who just want the old Mass.

What hurdles? The bishop chose the parishes. The pastors of the parish were not only welcoming, they willingly prepared for the coming of the EF. In St. Paul’s case that meant willingly relocating the tabernacle back to the center of the sanctuary, locating altar cards, a 1962 Missale Romano, etc. etc.

This was a brand-new, fresh start. It was the people, and possibly the priest who chose to isolate themselves – and the number of people who now attend attests to this. If people brought their separatist attitudes to St. Paul’s and the actual pastor was in charge, I am sure he would have never allowed the wall to be built in the first place.

 

[Exorcist]

Those who assist at the TLM, as TrueLight just wrote, often are on the same page as their fellow attendee and priest then those who do not assist at TLM’s. It may not be sweet news, but it is more true then not.
As Rich C indirectly touched upon,marginalisation was thrust on folks such as this over 40 years ago. I don’t know how old you are(I can’t go that far back myself) but the powers that be forced many a soul to the point that the community that was at their home parish became foreign to them. It was not what one had be brought up in. Again, facts are not always pleasant, but they are always facts.
I know from experience that people are still looking for a refuge from a lot of nonsense that has been going. Even though I have a little different view on some of these things, I know the feeling about wanting orthodoxy and not wanting children, if in the picture, to be exposed to, let us just say, questionable practices.
As to the retired priest coming in, I don’t know the back story, maybe the pastor is a busy man and asked them to find a priest to ease the burden. Also, retired priests can maybe take care of the sickcalls, do catechism for converts, spiritual direction/confession, etc.
Just things to ponder.
CB

What are you talking about? The bishop carefully chose the parish. The pastor was very welcoming and accommodating from the beginning. If the people brought isolationist ideals with them then the priest should have demanded they leave them at the door on Sundays. This was a fresh, new, bishop-driven effort following SP. To put it bluntly the people didn’t have the right to drag baggage into the Church that would impact the future of the EF Mass in the diocese. If they insisted, the priest should have set them straight.

In the end their actions ensure the celebration of the EF Mass won’t grow and that what is offered is a low Mass.

 

[Rich_C]

What hurdles? The bishop chose the parishes. The pastors of the parish were not only welcoming, they willingly prepared for the coming of the EF. In St. Paul’s case that meant willingly relocating the tabernacle back to the center of the sanctuary, locating altar cards, a 1962 Missale Romano, etc. etc.

This was a brand-new, fresh start. It was the people, and possibly the priest who chose to isolate themselves – and the number of people who now attend attests to this. If people brought their separatist attitudes to St. Paul’s and the actual pastor was in charge, I am sure he would have never allowed the wall to be built in the first place.

I can’t speak specifically of this one parish, but as far as I could tell you made it a general example, and it’s not representative of what’s going on around my neighborhood. That’s my point. Around here it’s like I described, which is almost the opposite of what you described.

 

[Exorcist]

I can’t speak specifically of this one parish, but as far as I could tell you made it a general example, and it’s not representative of what’s going on around my neighborhood. That’s my point. Around here it’s like I described, which is almost the opposite of what you described.

There will always be excuses for such behavior. Intentionally isolating the EF Mass is very wrong. Their actions here locally have marginalized the celebration of the EF Mass. It does a disservice to the Body of Christ.

The real tragedy is if you wanted to begin another nearby celebration of the EF Mass, free of all the hate and the negativity, I would bet you would be told “they already have one at St. Paul’s” even if your pastor was willing to support it.

 

[TrueLight]

There will always be excuses for such behavior. Intentionally isolating the EF Mass is very wrong. Their actions here locally have marginalized the celebration of the EF Mass. It does a disservice to the Body of Christ.

The real tragedy is if you wanted to begin another nearby celebration of the EF Mass, free of all the hate and the negativity, I would bet you would be told “they already have one at St. Paul’s” even if your pastor was willing to support it.

You sure have a jaded viewpoint based on one example. It isn’t fair to generally ascribe negative motives to people who are doing nothing more than working to preserve the Latin Mass. You might want to pray on that.