A Mormon Buried in a Catholic Cemetery?

[xixxvmcm85]

Indifferentism is a heresy, but perhaps an angel is just an angel?

Burying non-Catholics who were not hostile to the Church in life is allowed. Not to be flippant, but a cemetery or diocese could hardly write a regulation that says, “Angels with trumpets are OK as symbols on grave markers, unless the deceased was Mormon. Mormons have to have a quote from the Nicene Creed, instead.”

The concept of “angels” in Mormonism is starkly different from that of Catholicism. In Mormonism, angels are merely dearly departed human beings, so everyone from Adam to my deceased grandmother could be an “angel” according to the LDS church. For this reason, the LDS believe that angels have no wings and as such you will never ever ever find a piece of LDS art depicting an angel as anything but a human being.

Now I understand that the Catholic Church doesn’t necessarily believe that angels have wings, however in Catholic art it has been tradition to depict them as such (and so it is VERY easy to determine if a piece of angelic art is “Mormon based” or “Catholic/Christian based”.

The Angel Moroni (a former Native American-turned angel) is nothing more than a gold statue of a mortal man with a trumpet in a long gown (and the image is VERY specific. It is easy for even non-Mormons to tell that it is “that infamous Mormon angel that adorns the highest steeple of almost every LDS temple” for the hight, width, posture, and even angle of the trumpet’s protrusion from the mouth are specific).

For the reasons outlined above, and for my general distaste for the LDS religion as a former-LDS, current soon-to-be Catholic, I would be extremely offended and possibly even scandalized if I were to see such a thing in a “Catholic” cemetery.

Also, it might be of note that the generic image of the Angel Moroni is even copyrighted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as their official symbol. (A Utahan coffee shop was sued by the LDS church for using the angel in their ads).

Do not be fooled, I guarantee you that that image of the angel is NOT “just some ordinary angel”.

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ETA:

This is what every single metalic depiction of the Angel Moroni looks like:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

http://es.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/8/85/Moroni_Bern.JPG



http://www.candacesalima.com/myPictures/mit/J26AG.JPG

See… the angel Moroni is very distinguishable from other “angels”. I’m willing to bet $1,000 that the “angel” on the lady’s tombstone looks something like one of the above.

 

[EasterJoy]

The concept of “angels” in Mormonism is starkly different from that of Catholicism. In Mormonism, angels are merely dearly departed human beings, so everyone from Adam to my deceased grandmother could be an “angel” according to the LDS church. For this reason, the LDS believe that angels have no wings and as such you will never ever ever find a piece of LDS art depicting an angel as anything but a human being.

Now I understand that the Catholic Church doesn’t necessarily believe that angels have wings, however in Catholic art it has been tradition to depict them as such (and so it is VERY easy to determine if a piece of angelic art is “Mormon based” or “Catholic/Christian based”.

The Angel Moroni (a former Native American-turned angel) is nothing more than a gold statue of a mortal man with a trumpet in a long gown (and the image is VERY specific. It is easy for even non-Mormons to tell that it is “that infamous Mormon angel that adorns the highest steeple of almost every LDS temple” for the hight, width, posture, and even angle of the trumpet’s protrusion from the mouth are specific).

For the reasons outlined above, and for my general distaste for the LDS religion as a former-LDS, current soon-to-be Catholic, I would be extremely offended and possibly even scandalized if I were to see such a thing in a “Catholic” cemetery.

Also, it might be of note that the generic image of the Angel Moroni is even copyrighted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as their official symbol. (A Utahan coffee shop was sued by the LDS church for using the angel in their ads).

Do not be fooled, I guarantee you that that image of the angel is NOT “just some ordinary angel”.

As I said, a Mormon would take it as Moroni. Someone without that background would take it as a guy (not an angel) with a trumpet. It may simply be something that the policy-makers for the cemetery would not have taken into account.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

As I said, a Mormon would take it as Moroni. Someone without that background would take it as a guy (not an angel) with a trumpet. It may simply be something that the policy-makers for the cemetery would not have taken into account.

You posted before I added images, so go check them out.

Now that I’ve shown you what the “Angel Moroni” looks like, you will forever be able to recognize him when you see him (yet you have never been Mormon).

So indeed, anyone (Mormon or not) can recognize it and thus be possibly offended by it.

 

[EasterJoy]

You posted before I added images, so go check them out.

Now that I’ve shown you what the “Angel Moroni” looks like, you will forever be able to recognize him when you see him (yet you have never been Mormon).

So indeed, anyone (Mormon or not) can recognize it and thus be possibly offended by it.

OK, but if I have it right, the angels painted in The Last Judgement, which was done on the far wall of the Sistine Chapel are also without wings, including the two blowing their trumpets, long before the Mormons thought of depicting them that way (1541).

I couldn’t find a depiction, but I found this at the Vatican museum web site:

vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/The_Vatican_Museums/Sistine_Chapel–p–5.htm

“…The dead, seen on the lower left, are woken from their long slumber by angels’ trumpets, and their skeletons gradually transform back to being bodies. These angels in the middle of the painting have no wings and hold up two books: the smaller book held by the Archangel Michael records the names of the blessed, while the larger book is a list of the damned…”

Neverthless, maybe we need to put our recently-Mormon brothers and sisters through some art history lessons, if we are not going to cede any particular way of depicting the angels of the Last Judgement in particular or trumpet-blowers in general to the followers of Joseph Smith. The best remedy against misplaced scandal is education.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

There is a tutorial somewhere on CAF on how to shrink images before loading them. WHEW! Those are huge.

Now then- Why is a person wandering the Catholic cemetery looking for Moroni? Are they going to say, “Oh no! An image of Moroni! I am offended!” I highly doubt it.

I can barely get people to go clean up Grandma and Grandpa’s graves. The average Catholic does not go to the graveyard unless forced to attend an interment, or to clean up a grave in lieu of perpetual care, or for the Masses on Memorial and All Soul’s days. They usually go to see their own dead, not the dead of others.

The average Catholic wouldn’t know Moroni from Gabriel or St. Stan, wings or no wings. They’d probably think it had something to do with the Last Judgment.

It is nothing about which to be upset. The odds are small indeed that any will be led away from the faith by this woman’s tombstone. The odds are even less that they will be offended. So far, the only one who noticed was Spiller.

 

[KathleenElsie]

The angel motif in LDS sacred art is derived from this verse in the Bible:

Revelation 14:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
I don’t see why a Catholic should be offended by such a motif.

zerinus

To us old timers a Catholic Cemetery is reserved for practicing Catholics. Non-Catholics were not to be buried on sacred ground. It would sadden me to learn that this is no longer generally held as true.

As to your angel Moroni except for two angels we have been told not to name them for they are heavenly beings. Only the Archangel and Satan were mentioned by name in the Holy Bible.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

There is a tutorial somewhere on CAF on how to shrink images before loading them. WHEW! Those are huge.

Now then- Why is a person wandering the Catholic cemetery looking for Moroni? Are they going to say, “Oh no! An image of Moroni! I am offended!” I highly doubt it.

I can barely get people to go clean up Grandma and Grandpa’s graves. The average Catholic does not go to the graveyard unless forced to attend an interment, or to clean up a grave in lieu of perpetual care, or for the Masses on Memorial and All Soul’s days. They usually go to see their own dead, not the dead of others.

The average Catholic wouldn’t know Moroni from Gabriel or St. Stan, wings or no wings. They’d probably think it had something to do with the Last Judgment.

It is nothing about which to be upset. The odds are small indeed that any will be led away from the faith by this woman’s tombstone. The odds are even less that they will be offended. So far, the only one who noticed was Spiller.

Sorry for the image sizes, I promise it won’t happen again.

So it seems to be that your argument is (something along the lines of) "We believe in angels too, so it’s OK even though in all technicality this particular image of this particular angel is the official symbol of another faith (namely a non-Christian faith).

Unless you’re ready to engage in an exercise of hair-splitting, I guess that allowing the Pagan Pentegram is OK because, well after all, the pentegram is nothing more than a star, and we believe in stars.

I guess also we could allow Freemasonry symbols because, again, they are nothing more than a square and a compass, and as Catholics we believe in Math.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

OK, but if I have it right, the angels painted in The Last Judgement, which was done on the far wall of the Sistine Chapel are also without wings, including the two blowing their trumpets, long before the Mormons thought of depicting them that way (1541).

I couldn’t find a depiction, but I found this at the Vatican museum web site:

vaticanstate.va/EN/Monuments/The_Vatican_Museums/Sistine_Chapel–p–5.htm

“…The dead, seen on the lower left, are woken from their long slumber by angels’ trumpets, and their skeletons gradually transform back to being bodies. These angels in the middle of the painting have no wings and hold up two books: the smaller book held by the Archangel Michael records the names of the blessed, while the larger book is a list of the damned…”

Nevertheless, maybe we need to put our recently-Mormon brothers and sisters through some art history lessons, if we are not going to cede any particular way of depicting the angels of the Last Judgment in particular or trumpet-blowers in general to the followers of Joseph Smith. The best remedy against misplaced scandal is education.

It’s not so much that the angel is wingless (though I mentioned that the Catholic/Orthodox art tradition typically depicts them with wings).

The issue is that this specific image of this specific angel is specific to Mormonism. The image itself is copyrighted and is replicated over and over and over again for every single LDS temple. For those (Mormon or not) who have known Mormons, visited an LDS temple, or grew up in a state like Utah or Idaho, they are likely to know, instantaneously, who that is a picture of the second they lay eyes on it.

This is what I meant by possibly leading to offense or scandal.

I myself was raised in Mormonism, and to the dismay of much of my family, am currently converting to Catholicism. I myself, knowing what I know about that religion would be grossly offended at seeing that image on sacred ground regardless of the person over whose grave it adorns.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It’s not so much that the angel is wingless (though I mentioned that the Catholic/Orthodox art tradition typically depicts them with wings).

The issue is that this specific image of this specific angel is specific to Mormonism. The image itself is copyrighted and is replicated over and over and over again for every single LDS temple. For those (Mormon or not) who have known Mormons, visited an LDS temple, or grew up in a state like Utah or Idaho, they are likely to know, instantaneously, who that is a picture of the second they lay eyes on it.

This is what I meant by possibly leading to offense or scandal.

I myself was raised in Mormonism, and to the dismay of much of my family, am currently converting to Catholicism. I myself, knowing what I know about that religion would be grossly offended at seeing that image on sacred ground regardless of the person over whose grave it adorns.

Well said.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Sorry for the image sizes, I promise it won’t happen again.

So it seems to be that your argument is (something along the lines of) "We believe in angels too, so it’s OK even though in all technicality this particular image of this particular angel is the official symbol of another faith (namely a non-Christian faith).

No. That’s not my argument.

Unless you’re ready to engage in an exercise of hair-splitting, I guess that allowing the Pagan Pentegram is OK because, well after all, the pentegram is nothing more than a star, and we believe in stars.

No. Freemasonry symbols and pentagrams are easily recognized as what they are. This image is not. You are assuming, and we all know what that does.

My question: Why does anybody have the time to wander around the Catholic cemetery looking for this nonsense??? I do not have enough time in a day to be concerned about my own dead, and their graves. Why would I spend any time at all wandering the cemetery, commenting on the tombstones of other people’s departed that I don’t even know? And instead of addressing it here, why didn’t Spiller take it to the chancery if he didn’t like the answer he got from the cemetery office? .

 

[AMDGtoo]

My question: Why does anybody have the time to wander around the Catholic cemetery looking for this nonsense??? I do not have enough time in a day to be concerned about my own dead, and their graves. Why would I spend any time at all wandering the cemetery, commenting on the tombstones of other people’s departed that I don’t even know?

What an attitude! Don’t you know that there are some who actually visit cemetaries? They put flowers or flags on the graves. They read the tombstones and try to imagine what life was like. And yes, they wander around–sometimes just to locate the grave of a relative and sometimes to get a “taste” of what has gone before and sometimes to admire the old tombstone art. I’ve even known some communities that have actually “packed a lunch” for a Sunday visit, and I’ve known others who regularly come with gardening tools to “take care of”. (I’ve even seen them bring them on the public bus!) Afterall, that’s our history. That’s our loved ones.

And no, we don’t have to look for any of this stuff–if it’s there, it just “pops” out! And yes, I too would be offended to find non-Christian religious symbols on the tombstones of that which I assumed to be Catholic Sacred Ground. I mean it’s totally unexpected (particularly when someone has gone out of his way to ensure that his burial will be in a Catholic cemetary). Oh, it probably wouldn’t be unexpected for one of those large non-religious cemetaries, but we aren’t talking about one of those.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

The corporal works of mercy call for us to bury the dead. I do not see that it says just to bury the Catholic dead. I can tell you when you are greiving and you are laying your relative to rest you may have seen a pretty angel somewhere and said “Grandma would like that, let’s put that on there”.

I drive by a cemetary every day on my way to work and try to drive in and recite my rosary at least once a week. The dead need our prayers, not us fighting about whose angels get to be on tombstones.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

The corporal works of mercy call for us to bury the dead. I do not see that it says just to bury the Catholic dead. I can tell you when you are greiving and you are laying your relative to rest you may have seen a pretty angel somewhere and said “Grandma would like that, let’s put that on there”.

I drive by a cemetary every day on my way to work and try to drive in and recite my rosary at least once a week. The dead need our prayers, not us fighting about whose angels get to be on tombstones.

Bravo, Ted. Simply bravo!

I do pray for our departed, but not in a cemetery (I double-checked, and it is with an e and not an a- and I am really not trying to be the spelling police). I do not find it peaceful. Most cemeteries around here are located on busy intersections, with plenty of traffic. The walls are usually wrought iron, which easily lets in the noise.

I fail to see how a guy in robes with a horn that most Catholics wouldn’t know if he came up and blew in their ear is going to cause so much aggravation. Masonry’s symbols are obvious, as are the symbols of pagans, wiccan, or for that matter, buddhists and many other religions.

What an attitude! Don’t you know that there are some who actually visit cemetaries? What makes you think I don’t? I am a regular at my grandparents’ graves. Who are you to assume I don’t? They put flowers or flags on the graves. They read the tombstones and try to imagine what life was like. And yes, they wander around–sometimes just to locate the grave of a relative and sometimes to get a “taste” of what has gone before and sometimes to admire the old tombstone art. I’ve even known some communities that have actually “packed a lunch” for a Sunday visit, and I’ve known others who regularly come with gardening tools to “take care of”. (I’ve even seen them bring them on the public bus!) Afterall, that’s our history. Point taken in a limited capacity. There is much more history in archives and collections. That’s our loved ones. Wrong. Those are the earthly remains of your loved ones. Your loved ones- the souls that make them who they were- is not there. Which is my point- They aren’t there anymore. My Late, Great Aunt who died very recently wanted a big sign taped to her casket that said, “Gone Home.” I was happy to oblige her.

And no, we don’t have to look for any of this stuff–if it’s there, it just “pops” out! And yes, I too would be offended to find non-Christian religious symbols on the tombstones of that which I assumed to be Catholic Sacred Ground. Well then you are easily offended, as the angel Moroni is not easily noticed. You might know what he looks like. And I think that’s the problem- You did say your daughter is Mormon. You’re a bit teed off with them as a whole, aren’t you? You have yet to show me in canon law where having this woman buried under a tombstone with a guy with a horn is wrong. I mean it’s totally unexpected (particularly when someone has gone out of his way to ensure that his burial will be in a Catholic cemetary).Simply because you know what it is. Most people don’t. Oh, it probably wouldn’t be unexpected for one of those large non-religious cemetaries, but we aren’t talking about one of those. Maybe where you live, Catholic cemeteries are small. Where I live, Catholic cemeteries take up acres and acres of land. They are one of the larger employers of landscapers, groundskeepers, small equipment operators. They have parenterships with stone masons (the kind who carve tombstones, not the freemason- in fact, my uncle is one, and a past Grand Knight as well). And my father earned his living for decades as the head welder for caskets.

Spiller- If you do not like that this lady’s tombstone has Moroni on it, and you are offended, and you have already gone to the cemetery director, keep moving it up. Move it up to your bishop. Don’t like what you hear? Move it onup to the Vatican. Call in the St. Joseph Foundation, and see what they say about your case.

Just don’t expect everybody to play “ain’t it awful” with you when it is not. I am tired of “ain’t it awful” as a game around here. There are many, many other things to worry about than this.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Those are the earthly remains of your loved ones. Your loved ones- the souls that make them who they were- is not there.

Point taken. They are the earthly remains. However, since those remains were once “the Temple of the Holy Spirit”, those remains are to be treated with respect and what those remains represent should not be disregarded IMO. And people do visit cemetaries, not only to pay their respects to those remains (and what they stood for) but to view the headstones of history (the old ones are often quite pretty.)

You did say your daughter is Mormon. You’re a bit teed off with them as a whole, aren’t you?

Hmmm. There are many emotions, but in this I guess it’s because I so readily know the image. It’s copyrighted and unmistakable. (Besides it being a representation of a non-Christian religion that is a professed enemy of the Church.)

I think it’s also a bit of the helplessness. I mean, I know that the Mormons are going to have me “Baptized for the Dead”. Can’t even my remains be in a totally Catholic place–which I thought a Catholic cemetary was? I am a member of the Militia Immaculata that was originally formed to help combat FreeMasonry–another “enemy of the Church”, and I wouldn’t appreciate Masonic symbols either so my husband and I have already purchased our cemetary plots–and we made sure that it was in a Catholic cemetary. This “anything goes” idea, makes that choice seem unecessary. (Of course, my Diocese doesn’t seem to think so. They seemed to actually be grateful for the choice.)

You have yet to show me in canon law where having this woman buried under a tombstone with a guy with a horn is wrong.

Actually, I don’t have to. You are the one who took my words to mean that the Mormon symbol was wrong. (Of course, this is in a Catholic cemetary and as I said, Mormons are professed enemies of the Catholic Church.) But back to what I said: I said that it smacks of “indifferentism” (which itself is a known heresy). I gave you the Wikipedia website so you could start YOUR research, since you didn’t appear to know, but I know the newadvent site carries the definition of “indifferentism”. IMO, to see a known symbol of a non-Catholic religion is totally unexpected (particularly when someone has gone out of his way to ensure that his burial will be in a Catholic cemetary).

Just don’t expect everybody to play “ain’t it awful” with you when it is not.

Well, no. I don’t know anything of the sort. And I don’t see why we are not supposed to support our brothers when they indeed feel that something is “ain’t it awful” even when there are many, many other things to worry about.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

OutinChgoburbs:
And now you are assuming that freemasonry and pagan symbols are well-known at the exclusion of Mormon symbols.

Either both assumptions are flawed (and thus all non-Catholic symbols should be allowed) or both assumptions are correct (and thus no non-Catholic symbols should be allowed).

What you are doing in fact is hair-splitting.

Do tell, have you polls, surveys and statistics to quantitatively demonstrate that a majority of the Catholic faithful recognize Pagan and Freemason imagery while only a minority recognize Mormon imagery?

 

[xixxvmcm85]

newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

The corporal works of mercy call for us to bury the dead. I do not see that it says just to bury the Catholic dead. I can tell you when you are greiving and you are laying your relative to rest you may have seen a pretty angel somewhere and said “Grandma would like that, let’s put that on there”.

I drive by a cemetary every day on my way to work and try to drive in and recite my rosary at least once a week. The dead need our prayers, not us fighting about whose angels get to be on tombstones.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you stated, mostly because you’re presenting a straw man of our argument.

No one here (to my knowledge) has advocated the removal of deceased Mormons from sacred ground, only to remove Mormon imagery from sacred ground. Last I checked, the imagery is not alive and not necessarily due respect.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

And now you are assuming that freemasonry and pagan symbols are well-known at the exclusion of Mormon symbols.

Either both assumptions are flawed (and thus all non-Catholic symbols should be allowed) or both assumptions are correct (and thus no non-Catholic symbols should be allowed).

What you are doing in fact is hair-splitting.

Do tell, have you polls, surveys and statistics to quantitatively demonstrate that a majority of the Catholic faithful recognize Pagan and Freemason imagery while only a minority recognize Mormon imagery?

It’s OK for you to red herring, but not for me to allegedly hair split- which I am not? Is it up to you to set a priori?

Watch it. I may not be the best at an argument, but my DH is a philosophy professor of some stature, and a respected conservative. I will have him go over my arguments and see what he says. He’s a hard marker, BTW.

I already said- Spiller, go see what the real authorities say: Your bishop, the head of the province, the Vatican, even the St. Joseph Foundation which defends alleged abuses of Catholics and Catholic practices.

I think you will all find that this is a tempest in a teapot.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

It’s OK for you to red herring, but not for me to allegedly hair split- which I am not? Is it up to you to set a priori?

Watch it. I may not be the best at an argument, but my DH is a philosophy professor of some stature, and a respected conservative. I will have him go over my arguments and see what he says. He’s a hard marker, BTW.

I already said- Spiller, go see what the real authorities say: Your bishop, the head of the province, the Vatican, even the St. Joseph Foundation which defends alleged abuses of Catholics and Catholic practices.

I think you will all find that this is a tempest in a teapot.

And here I thought that we were merely having a discussion on whether it is right or wrong, not whether it is allowed by the church?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

And here I thought that we were merely having a discussion on whether it is right or wrong, not whether it is allowed by the church?

No, it was whether or not it is allowed by the Church (large C).

 

[xixxvmcm85]

No, it was whether or not it is allowed by the Church (large C).

1,000 pardons then for my misplaced argument.

I graciously defer to those with knowledge of Canon Law.