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dianaiad
Guest
Probably. the original series WAS written by a Mormon, and there is a great deal of Mormon ‘stuff’ in it. The new series, though?
Not so much.
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Not so much.
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dianaiad
Guest
We give credit to the real authors of the tunes we use, Theosis.
You can generally find that at the bottom of the page or at the back of the book.I don’t think we have all that many tunes that were actually written by Mormons. A few…but not all that many.
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dianaiad
Guest
Well, he is perfectly happy as a Mormon.
But you are correct about his books and the way they present LDS thought and concepts.
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dianaiad
Guest
I wish THAT were true…
If you don’t mind a little (name removed by moderator)ut from a Mormon here…I admire Theosis. He is the first critic of the LDS church I have run into who gets our doctrine RIGHT. By that I don’t mean that he agrees with it, but rather that he actually understands what it is he is disagreeing with.or former Mormons who are really angry for one reason or another.
Airing out your thoughts is great. I like to do it too. And I like to ask LOTS of questions about how things started (I guess I am heavy into root-cause-analysis!) I do think you lean a little heavy to the LDS side of things in discussions though…
I wish he were not unique, but he pretty much is, in my experience.
At least so far. I do live in hope, but I’m 60 years old and have been dealing with antis for close to 40 years. I’m afraid that ‘hope’ is getting a little on the slim side.
Diana
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lax16
Guest
Of course you admire him Diana because he usually agrees with you!
Trying to admire those who disagree with us…now that’s another story.
As I mentioned to Theosis earlier, I don’t find him to be much of a critic of the LDS church. Of course I am somewhat new to CAF and don’t know if he was always been this way.
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why_me
Guest
Here is the mormon tabernacle choir singing the hymn at the April general conferece of the lds church in april 2008. It just shows that the hymn is an active hymn in the lds church.
youtube.com/watch?v=ADX-He30_PA&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=ADX-He30_PA&feature=related
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Jay53
Guest
I also recognized it as a hymn from Church: “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say”.
youtube.com/watch?v=uqF4N7rdV-w&feature=related
Although I had trouble finding a really good rendition of it online without spending hours looking for one.
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dianaiad
Guest
Well yes; he often agrees with me about what our beliefs actually are. He doesn’t agree that those beliefs are actually CORRECT, but tell me:Of course you admire him Diana because he usually agrees with you!
Trying to admire those who disagree with us…now that’s another story.
As I mentioned to Theosis earlier, I don’t find him to be much of a critic of the LDS church. Of course I am somewhat new to CAF and don’t know if he was always been this way.
How much sense does it make to be a critic if you only criticise the strawman version of your opponent’s beliefs? Doing that strikes me as a supremely stupid and useless waste of time.
For instance, If I say Mormons believe A…and a critic can only be so if he claims we believe B; how useful IS that?
Doesn’t it make more sense to say 'yes, you believe A, and here is why A is not correct?"
The thing is, lax, that it doesn’t matter what you think we believe. We believe what we believe, and arguing against things that we do not believe in the impression that this will somehow change our minds is, well…
silly.
I wish it weren’t also standard practice.
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Catholic20064
Guest
Do you believe God the Father has a Father who had a Father, etc.?
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dianaiad
Guest
Yes.
and…
I don’t really know, except that Jesus has a Father.
What I AM willing to do is admit that we don’t know everything, don’t understand everything, but that this is true: God the Father created the universe through His Son Jesus Christ.
What happened before/beside that creation is probably not understandable by us in any really meaningful way.
To pin things down, what I believe is that whatever I do believe or speculate about that is not ‘salvific.’
After all, what do YOU believe about the creation of the universe and God, anyway? We know that the universe had a beginning, and that time operates within it, from that beginning to now, and from now to whenever. Whether we call God’s existance apart from that creation ‘before the universe’ or ‘apart from the universe,’ all we can do is concieve of Him through our necessary view of time.
No matter what we TRY to do, we can’t quite get that bothersome thing, time, out of our perceptions. When we try, we immediately start putting words to concepts for which we have no real…concept. Certainly we have no real understanding.
So…where DID God come from? As a Mormon, I believe I have a better clue than most other people. I’m certain that you believe you have a better handle on it than I do, but in reality, can either one of us really understand it?
What I DO believe is that God is literally our spiritual Father, and that He has promised that if we obey Him, we can become heirs and joint-heirs with Christ and have all that He does. When you consider what Jesus actually does have, and we have been promised the same, the logical conclusion goes somewhere that many Christians don’t feel comfortable with.
Well, I don’t feel comfortable with an amorphous and utterly unknowable deity Who made us for some purpose nobody has ever been able to sufficiently explain, and created us to be so much less than He–with a future that seems, well–rather boring; or if not boring, precisely, certainly illogical and not…us. I’m a little like Mark Twain in that area; why, if we never had a thought for learning to play the harp here, or listening to or producing music here, or of considering sitting around all day on a cloud doing either one would be an appealing way to spend an hour–why on earth would we consider an eternity of this to be a REWARD?
Of course, he was being facetious, but he has a point. The sort of heavens that have been described to me are the kinds that, frankly, I would have to be changed utterly beyond who I am to appreciate. How is that a reward, or heaven? I prefer the LDS idea of it: that is, our after life is to be spent in solid, productive work and progression in learning and in spiritual growth, until we become like God. Not “God,” but LIKE God. His children.
Believing that He is literally our Father, and that we are His children, with all that concept implies, makes a WHOLE lot more sense, at least to me.
…and also, in my view, that is NOT demeaning God in any way, or lessening His omnipotence or omnipotence. It does, however, explain what WE are doing here. No other religious system has been able to adequately explain why God would actually create a group of idiots such as we, when AS an omnipotent being, He could have created us to be perfect companions for Him…or perfect servants…or whatever it is y’all think He was up to.
But that we are literally His children, who need to do an eternity of growing up? Yep, that makes sense to me.
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benidict
Guest
gee, i wonder why?
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BernadetteM
Guest
Maybe I am missing something, but it appears from the song that Mormons believe in “Gods” not in One God in Three persons.
At least it mentioned Gods twice. A little strange theology for my approval.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
At least it mentioned Gods twice. A little strange theology for my approval.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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dianaiad
Guest
It is, Why Me…but I like the OTHER tune much better!
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dianaiad
Guest
I have come to learn that everybody else’s theology is ‘a little strange,’ no matter who is doing the evaluating, or who is being evaluated. For instance, and I do understand that this might sound weird to you, but I think Catholic theology is a little strange. (shrug)
Isn’t a grand thing that my approval of Catholic doctrine isn’t required? Only God’s is, and I understand completely that you believe it has His. I believe He approves mine. I do understand that both of us could be wrong about that, but only one of us can be completely right. Under those circumstances, isn’t it a comforting thought that we neither one require the approval of the other for our own beliefs?
Diana, Mormon Curmudgeon.
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lax16
Guest
I am arguing against things that you do not believe with the impression that this will somehow change your minds…really? What makes you say that?
I have often stated after an answer that “Now I get it. Thanks.”
Aren’t we all here to argue religion? Aren’t YOU here to change minds?
If my questions are silly, stupid and a waste of time, don’t answer them. I’m getting used to questions going unanswered.
btw - questions are not criticisms just because you don’t like them
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dianaiad
Guest
Sorry…there I went with the general rather than the specific “you.” That was not meant for you personally, just as a general comment on the vast majority of critics and their general habits. Lax, I’m certain that you have noticed this tendency…Catholics get it even more than WE do, because there are so many more Catholics, and so many more ANTI-Catholics.
Not in the way I’m often accused of, no. This is NOT the place to proselytize, and I don’t try. My sole purpose here is to defend my beliefs against those who present it incorrectly. I frankly don’t care whether anybody here comes to believe as I do as a result of my efforts. I care only that if they are going to disagree with my beliefs, that they know what those beliefs actually are before they decide against 'em.
Again, my apologies…my comments weren’t addressed specifically to you, nor were they commenting upon YOUR specific posts. They were addressing the general tendency of most antis that do post.
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lax16
Guest
I didn’t mean that you are here to proselytize, but to explain the LDS side of things, and to change minds so that people (like me) can say “Thanks for the explanation.”Sorry…there I went with the general rather than the specific “you.” That was not meant for you personally, just as a general comment on the vast majority of critics and their general habits. Lax, I’m certain that you have noticed this tendency…Catholics get it even more than WE do, because there are so many more Catholics, and so many more ANTI-Catholics.
Not in the way I’m often accused of, no. This is NOT the place to proselytize, and I don’t try. My sole purpose here is to defend my beliefs against those who present it incorrectly. I frankly don’t care whether anybody here comes to believe as I do as a result of my efforts. I care only that if they are going to disagree with my beliefs, that they know what those beliefs actually are before they decide against 'em.
Again, my apologies…my comments weren’t addressed specifically to you, nor were they commenting upon YOUR specific posts. They were addressing the general tendency of most antis that do post.
Good because I really do like to ask lots of questions and I do try to be charitable. It is important to be able to ask the “deep” questions to someone.
Yeah, being Catholic isn’t much fun these days…but we are all learning a lot about faith.
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why_me
Guest
Not everyone can answer deep questions, nor should it be required to do so. Much depends on faith without asking or answering the deep questions. And not everyone has the intellect to handle deep questions but yet, their faith is strong.
It was never much fun to be mormon during the time of Joseph Smith.
I think that what has happened in the catholic church lately has been a humbling experience for the catholics who post on the mormon threads. I said a long time ago on this forum, that no church is perfect because churches have human beings as members. And that catholics need to be careful when they bash another church because others can certainly bash the catholic church.
On this thread the tone has by and large been respectful. And that may have to do with the current situation today within the catholic church. Maybe the more super critical catholic posters of the lds church are eating humble pie.
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why_me
Guest
You are right. I liked the other tune too. The BYU choir did a good job. But if you remember the lds belief about Kolob took a lot of bashing earlier. And some claimed that this belief is not publicized within the lds church and new members or investigators are kept in the dark.
Since the tune was sung at general conference two years ago, this is proven false.
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TheosisM
Guest
Hmm, I can’t remember if that was the song (could there be more than one Catholic hymn to that tune?), it was last summer, but I love the words to this (very powerful)! Thanks.I also recognized it as a hymn from Church: “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say”.
youtube.com/watch?v=uqF4N7rdV-w&feature=related
Although I had trouble finding a really good rendition of it online without spending hours looking for one.
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