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cricket36
Guest
Now I see your point. No, I don’t know of a reference that specifically says that such a Mass would be invalid. Only the reference that a priest MUST consume both species.
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Walking_Home
Guest
When the principal celebrant does not consume both species the Sacrifice is incomplete. An incomplete Sacrifice does not make for a valid Mass.
ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur133.htm
The reason why the principal celebrant in a concelebration may not avail of the permission to receive only under the species of bread probably derives from the necessity to assure that the sacrifice is completed before Communion begins. The sacrifice is completed only after the presiding celebrant has consumed both species.
This is also why the individual priest must also consume both species before Communion begins. The faithful’s exercise of their baptismal priesthood is carried out with and through the priest. Thus, their full participation in the holy sacrifice of the Mass through Communion would be incomplete if the priest fails to first complete the sacrifice by consuming both species. ZE06061322
ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur133.htm
The reason why the principal celebrant in a concelebration may not avail of the permission to receive only under the species of bread probably derives from the necessity to assure that the sacrifice is completed before Communion begins. The sacrifice is completed only after the presiding celebrant has consumed both species.
This is also why the individual priest must also consume both species before Communion begins. The faithful’s exercise of their baptismal priesthood is carried out with and through the priest. Thus, their full participation in the holy sacrifice of the Mass through Communion would be incomplete if the priest fails to first complete the sacrifice by consuming both species. ZE06061322
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diggerdomer
Guest
One person describing an action as “incomplete” is not equivalent to the Church saying it’s “invalid.”
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Walking_Home
Guest
Understanding logic: incomplete Sacrifice = invalid Mass.
And by the way the person speaking of the incomplete Sacrifice is Fr. Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.
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diggerdomer
Guest
This does not adequately address my comment/concern. Please, try again. Do you have any citations from canon law, or liturgical law? After all, unless I’m mistaken, that’s where the Church defines the validity of sacraments, right? Or is there some other source you’re privy to that the rest of us aren’t? Or does Fr. McNamara offer some other insights not in Canon Law?
I have looked but have so far not found any Magisterial source that equates “incomplete sacrifice” with “invalid Mass.”
If you or Fr. McNamara know otherwise, please help us out! It would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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benedictgal
Guest
We have already established that for the Eucharist to be valid, it must have the correct matter (the correct bread and wine), the form (the words of institution recited as they are written in the Roman Missal), the intent (the priest intends to consecrate the species into the Body and Blood of Christ) and a validly ordained minister (priest or bishop). If any of these are missing, the Eucharist is not valid and if the Eucharist is not valid, then the Mass did not occur.
Why are you reluctant to accept this?
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diggerdomer
Guest
I asked this before, sorry if I missed it, but I never got an answer. Where does the Catholic Church teach that if a priest only communes under one species the Mass is invalid?
Again, sorry if I missed the response to this same question I asked previously.
Thank you.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I would say he offers insights as to what completes the Sacrifice-- and he is in a better position to know this --than you or I. Now you can disregard this – but this would make you accountable for leading others to believe the non-completion of the Sacrifice does not invalidate the Mass.
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diggerdomer
Guest
His insights may or may not be wonderful. But they have nothing to do with the validity of the Mass, which is determined by the Church, not one individual’s opinion.
So…try again? Please? If you have something relevant and helpful here I would really like to know.
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Walking_Home
Guest
diggerdomer – his insights hit at the validity of the Mass — no complete Sacrifice —no valid Mass. Now it seems --logic is not your fortitude.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Wow. Thank you. I had no idea my logic was so deficient.
But, back to the matter at hand. Thankfully, the Church does not require all of us to be as logically gifted as apparently you are. And, thankfully, the Church does not base the validity of sacraments on merely logic.
The Church requires validity for sacraments. You have given nothing substantive in response to this question.
Can you, again, give any Church teaching that supports your position? Or are you just relying on this one person’s opinion, separate from Church teaching?
Thanks.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Hey – you can believe what you want --bet your money on an incomplete Sacrifice – but that is a road I will not travel on.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Thanks. You can believe what you want, too. I’ll stick with the Church… you can have the road you’re on.
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Walking_Home
Guest
My road is --shall I say the complete Sacrifice --therefore unquestionably valid.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Yes, yes, of course it is. As you say. You are, after all, the final and complete arbiter of what’s “valid” in the church. I would not dare question you.
Thanks for clarifying your position. Best wishes.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Well diggerdomer – a complete Sacrifice is valid --do you not agree.
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diggerdomer
Guest
I agree that what the Church teaches is valid, is valid.
Can you translate your thoughts into what the Church teaches? How does what you propose as valid correspond with what the Church teaches? If it doesn’t, that’s fine of course, it would then be something I frankly don’t have as much interest in as I’m primarily concerned about learning the Catholic faith.
Can you show us where what the Catholic Church teaches corresponds to your own teaching of “a complete Sacrifice is valid”?
Thanks for any help here.
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agapewolf
Guest
I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that the body of Christ is there, then if the wine is not consecrated, or the priest does not consume the blood of CHrist if it is, that all of a sudden the body of Christ is UNconsecrated and not valid anymore. We are bound by time with this…
THAT is the logic we are dealing with here.
THAT is the logic we are dealing with here.
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JRKH
Guest
I agree here.
Also we are getting off of a specific point for those who attend such a mass.
First of all, In the case in the OP, The Priest DID intend to consecrate the wine but failed to do so due, presumably, to some medication he had taken. So - in all of the discussion about validity - we must rmemeber that the mistake was unintentional.
Second, for the benefit of uniformed parishoners, such as myself, how could such an unintentional error be a failure on our part to complete the Sunday Obligation? We went intending to attend Mass and, at least until I posted here, I thought I had attended mass.
So in all of the back and forth about validity etc. how does this really effect the parishoners who attended the mass and were unaware that this unintentional error was such a serious problem?
Peace
James
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cricket36
Guest
Unfortunately, I get the impression that diggerdomer is not only splitting hairs but is setting himself up as the arbiter of what is valid and unvalid.
I wonder if diggerdomer went to confession and asked the priest a question, whether he would accept the answer. Or whether this same kind of questioning would continue in the confessional or outside.
I’m trying not to be cruel or judgemental though I am afraid this is how I will come across. I simply don’t understand why diggerdomer continues this line of questioning.
I wonder if diggerdomer went to confession and asked the priest a question, whether he would accept the answer. Or whether this same kind of questioning would continue in the confessional or outside.
I’m trying not to be cruel or judgemental though I am afraid this is how I will come across. I simply don’t understand why diggerdomer continues this line of questioning.
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