A muslim example of an ideal mother

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Part 2 of my reply to Montalban

**Then, there’s a Sura that deals specifically with this massacre of PoWs

“And He has caused to descend from their strongholds the Jews that assisted them. And he struck terror into their hearts. Some you slaughtered and some you took prisoner”
Sura 33.25**

Look at 33:20. There were people who were fighting the Muslims and a few passages down it says the Jews sided with these infidels. The Jews and many infidels got killed because they were fighting and attacking Muslims. No where does this passage say to open season on all Jews either.

Then there’s the Hadith that deals specifically with this massacre too.
“Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa’, the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina.”
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.362

And just where is all of this mentioned in the Holy Quran?

Even if i were to grant the hadith spoke the truth I believe there is more to this story. The Jews supposedly had accepted the Prophet as their secular but not religious ruler and later backstabbed him by fighting against him after having done so before and lost. The Prophet supposedly was acting as a civil magistrate punishing people who were engaged in civil disco
 
Montalban said:
And here’s a modern opinion
“Question : How are prisoners of war treated in Islam?
Answer : Praise be to Allaah.

Islam is the religion of mercy and justice; it commands us to call others to the religion of Allaah in a kind and good manner, and to encourage people to enter this great religion. If some people persist in rejecting the religion of Allaah and stand in the way of ruling by that which Allaah has revealed on earth, or they fight against the call to Allaah, then we give them the choice of three things:

Either they become Muslim; or if they refuse they pay the jizyah (whereby they pay a specified amount to the Muslims in return for being allowed to remain their land, and the Muslims undertake to protect them); or, if they refuse that, there is nothing left but the way which they themselves have chosen, which is fighting and dealing violently with those who have persecuted the Muslims and put obstacles in the path of the Islamic da’wah.”
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=13241&ln=eng
Note if some people ‘resist’, or if they ‘persist in rejecting’ they can be killed

Here’s an Islamic site that agrees with this event happening…
Now Sa’d Ibn Mu’ath (RA) delivered his judgment: “I enjoin that all the men of Banu Quraithah be put to death and their wives and children be treated like prisoners of war while their wealth and properties be divided among the Muslims.” Following this judgment Banu Quraithah were ordered to come out of the fort and they were all brought to Al-Madinah in custody. At last, following the judgment, their men were killed and their dwellings were given to the Muslims.
From: The History of Islam, Vol.1
islamweb.net/ver2/archive/readArt.php?id=37137&lang=E

Thus you have Muhammad as the ‘example’ of behaviour. His behaviour in the Hadith and Koran show that he over-saw the slaughter of PoWs. They were deemed to have ‘resisted’ Muhammad (and by virtue of this the prophet of al-Lah) and they were slaughtered.
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The Holy Quran says there is to be no compulsion in religion. It is wrong to force people to convert to Islam.

Again, you fail to understand that the hadith contain many false doctrines created by evil people to further their own ends.
 
Montalban said:
… and the Hadith… and Islamic opinion over the centuries (with due respect in that order).

Then unfortunately, your god commands you to do evil.
At this stage, the situation became unbearable and could no longer be put up with. The Prophet gathered his men and said: “Who will kill Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf? He had maligned Allâh, and His Messenger.” Thereupon, Muhammad bin Maslamah, ‘Abbad bin Bishr, Al-Harith bin Aws, Abu ‘Abs bin Hibr and Salkan bin Salamah, Ka‘b’s foster brother, volunteered to do the job.

Muhammad bin Maslamah said: “O Messenger of Allâh, do you wish that I should kill him?” He said: “Yes.” He said: “Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit).” He said: “Talk (as you like).” So, Muhammad bin Maslamah came to Ka‘b and talked to him, saying: “This man (i.e. the Prophet ) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship.” When he heard this, Ka‘b said: “By Allâh you will be put to more trouble by him.” Muhammad bin Maslamah answered: “No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan.” He said: “What will you mortgage?” Muhammad answered: “What do you want?” The immoral and heartless Jew demanded women and children as articles of security against the debt. Muhammad said: “Should we pledge our women whereas you are the most handsome of the Arabs; and the son of one of us may be abused by saying that he was pledged for two wasq (measurement unit of weight) of dates but we can pledge you (our) weapons.” Ka‘b agreed. Salkan bin Salamah, Abu Na’ilah, at another time, went to see Ka‘b for the same purpose and there were more or less the same subjects, only that Abu Na’ilah would bring him some companions. The plan was successful and provided for the presence of both men and weapons. On Rabi‘ Al-Awwal 14th, at night, the year 3 A.H. the people said good bye to the Prophet and set out in the Name of Allâh to implement the carefully drawn plan. The Prophet stayed back praying for them and supplicating Allâh to render them success. The men went and called upon him at night. He came down although his wife warned him not to meet them alleging that: “I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder.” He said: “It is only Muhammad bin Maslamah and my foster brother Abu Na’ilah. When a gentleman is called at night even if he be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call.” Abu Na’ilah said to his companions: “As he comes down, I will extend my hand towards his head to smell and when I hold him fast, you should do your job.” So when he came down, they talked together for about an hour. They then invited him to go out and spend a nice time in the moonlight. On the way out, Abu Na’ilah remarked: “I smell the nicest perfume from you.” Ka‘b said: “Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia.” Abu Na’ilah again said: “Allow me to smell (the scent on your head)”. He said: “Yes, you may smell.” So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: “Allow me to do so(once again).” He then held his head fast and said to his companions: “Do your job.” And they killed him. The group of men came back after fulfilling their mission. One of them Al-Harith bin Aws was wounded by mistake with the swords of his men, and was bleeding badly. When they reached Baqee‘ Al-Gharqad, they shouted, “Allâh is Great”. The Prophet heard them and realized that they had killed the enemy of Allâh. As they saw him, he said: “Cheerful faces are yours.” In reply, they said: “And yours O Messenger of Allâh.” They handed the head of the tyrant over to him. He entertained Allâh’s praise for their success. He then applied his saliva to Al-Harith’s wound and it healed on the spot.]

When the Jews learned about the death of their tyrant, Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf, they were scared and even their stonelike hearts were in the grip of inexpressible panic. They realized that the Messenger of Allâh would thenceforth never hesitate to use force when good words and admonition failed. They remained silent and resigned, and faked adherence to covenants.

Now the Prophet was free to collect his thoughts and give himself up to resolving foreign affairs, and facing dangers that could be carried with hostile wind blowing again from Makkah.
al-sunnah.com/nektar/9.htm

This site does its best to make more of this man than what he was; a witty writer of songs and poems against Muhammad. So Muhammad had him assassinated. This is clear from where it says that his composing of the words were ‘unbearable’ and it was immediately following this that he was assassinated.
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Again, where is any of this in the Holy Quran?
 
Montalban said:
This site also has the ‘enemy’ committing assassinations (see al-sunnah.com/nektar/10.htm) thus Muhammad was no better than the ‘idolators’. 🙂

Muhammad was not averse to striking without warning…
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 287:
Narrated Kab bin Malik:
I never failed to join Allah’s Apostle in any of his Ghazawat except in the Ghazwa of Tabuk. However, I did not take part in the Ghazwa of Badr, but none who failed to take part in it, was blamed, for Allah’s Apostle had gone out to meet the caravans of (Quraish, but Allah caused them (i.e. Muslims) to meet their enemy unexpectedly (with no previous intention) .

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html

The word *assassin *itself comes from Arabic
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Again more hadith. When the hadith says that the Quran is talking about a certain event or person but the Quran itself does not specifically say so I take it with a grain of salt. the hadith supporters have never proven to me that the hadith actually is reliable in this regard.
 
jack_hawkins said:
BH Manners - are you a Koran-only Muslim?
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Yes.

One thing to keep in mind is that most supposed Muslims interpret the Quran based on what the hadith says it is supposed to mean. For example, if the Holy Quran says something the hadith will come along and say that the reason the Quran said such and such was because this or that was going on or this or that person was doing something even though this information is not found in the Quran itself. None of the hadith followers as far as I am aware have proven to me that what the hadith says is a correct record of events or commentary of things mentioned in the Quran.
 
Well you’re considered a kaffir by most Muslims then.

The Koran actually cannot be a meaningful basis for Islam by itself - and if you’re just going to pick and choose the Hadiths according to which you like, then having any meaningful discussion will be virtually impossible.
Do you pray 5 times a day?
Where does it say that in the Koran?
 
Jayda said:
hola, good morning BH Manners,

I do not know how else to say this but… what authority is there to say you are right and they are not? or for them to say they are right and you are not… I forwarded you the link to the conversation and you could see even amongst themselves they did not agree what the correct course of action is… or in the event they agreed (the majority did) that you must consider somebody not longer a muslim, they did not agree to what circumstances this happens…

in the Holy Catholic Church we have these things specifically laid out for us… the final arbiter is the Church, which is arranged in a top down fashion… but in Islam you have no such superstructure… it is just like protestants who seem to have their bibles their faith and their ability to reason, but that does not work… it gives you a kalaedoscope of opinions each claiming to be the “truth” based all on the same materials…

i do not know if you looked into some of the other questions i asked on that webforum, but one of the things i asked and was confused by is all these different muslim clerics, what happens when they disagree? their is no coherency to this religion…

my point is not to say that Islam does not work… even though i do not believe it does, my point is to say that equivocations between the Church and islam in many circumstances will lead to wrong conclusions because there are serious differences… the Church is a Holy Beauracracy, a monarchy of faith, with official and unchallengeable positions… islam is like some kind of network with confusing different opinions muired in individual interpretations…

so when we say “that person is not Catholic” even though they identify themselves as one, or “that is not right in Catholicism” it is meant authoritatively… we can show you where the Holy Church said “this is final, obey.” but when muslims talk about certain things and say “that person is not a muslim” or “this is not islam” that is in the eye of the beholder, the muslim you are talking about may in fact hold the same view about you… and who is to say either is right? it is a matter of personal judgment at that point…

i read the quran… one quote i remember is “truth stands out clear from error” i am paraphrasing…

but it is not so… quotes like this leave muslims and all people with the promise that they will read and everything will be clear… with no questions of faith and nothing to arbitrate… it is like it is saying “this is so obvious you do not need a Church” but looking at your religion today how can you say it is so? some muslims say extremists are not muslims, others say moderates are not muslims… but neither can define what these terms mean… there are shias, sunnis, sufis, wahhabis, salafis, ahmadiyya, ishmaelis, druzes and baha’is who have even bigger conflicts of belief… all based on a religion that supposedly stands clear from error.

what you say is their hypocrisy is what they say is your hypocrisy… and both say they are not muslims… or actually some of them would say you are still a muslim because they do not believe it is possible to not be a muslim anymore.

Catholicism is clear… Islam is not… and in that lack of clarity there is room for us to accurately acknowledge islam has violent streaks certain muslims disagree with and certain muslims do not… unlike the Catholic Church which declares something good or something bad and that is the end… so understanding this important difference between us means that we Catholics cannot accept these false equivocations and muslims if they genuinely do wish to understand us should accept this also.

que Dios te bendiga BH Manners

Dominus Vobiscum catholics
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Thank you for asking God to bless me. I hope you are blessed too.🙂

This is going to take me a little while to frame my thoughts in reply to you. I also want to find some verse in the Quran for you and it may take a little while. I won’t forget to reply though.🙂
 
BH_Manners said:
The Holy Quran says there is to be no compulsion in religion. It is wrong to force people to convert to Islam.
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The Quran does say to force people to convert to Islam. The verses that say there is to be no compulsion in religion were abrogated, that means they no longer stand, because they were replaced by the later verses which compel Muslims to force Islam on non-believers. The Medina-era Surahs are peaceful, but were later replace by the violent Mecca-era Surahs. The contrast between the Medina-era Mohammed versus Mecca-era Muhammed are crucial to understanding the abrogation of peaceful Surahs.

“When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called “al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh” (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses. The chronological timing in which a verse was written determines its authority to establish policies within Islam. Non-Muslims cannot afford to be ignorant about the full implications of the Abrogator and the Abrogated Doctrine (al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh). When Islamic spokesmen say that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Quran does not support such things as human rights infractions, gender bias and terrorism, they are lying. This means that the Western politicians and liberal journalists, who continually spout that Islam is a noble religion of peace, are in reality propagating a deception that they have been deceived into parroting.”

The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.
An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:

**“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…” Surah 9:5 **

The peaceful Surahs which were abrogated by Surah 9:5 are listed on this site:

islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml
 
BH_Manners said:
I’ll be happy to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah.

Even if the Israelis are oppressing Muslims, the way Hamas and Hezbollah are going about carrying out Jihad is not Quranic and wrong. First off, I don’t buy the “every Jew in Israel is a combatant” argument. There are LOTS of Jews both in Israel and out of it who are against what the Zionists are doing in the West Bank supposedly. When the idiot terrorists blow up a building or shoot a missle into a town square they may be hitting people who otherwise would be on the Muslim’s side though Israeli. they also may be hitting little children too old to know their left hand from there right hand. This makes them just as bad as the Israelis and actually worse, for they are supposed to be guided by the Holy Quran which is truth whereas the Israelis follow a corrupted form of religion.

Of course, you must remember that I haven’t been to Israel and asked Palestinians and Israelis about what is going on in the ocupied territories. I can oly go by what I have read in the news, net, or seen on tv. All sources so far have said that Hezbollah and Hamas have used missles and bombs to kill civilians. Even if the Israelis are flat out wrong in EVERYTHING Hezbollah and Hamas still err in their practice.

Now, will you condemn the CIA, FBI, and NSA for dirty things they have done in the past?
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I would very much enjoy seeing you condemn those groups publically among muslims. Of course that could lead to your funeral and become evidence that we are right about islam. The NSA essentially decodes intelligence, the FBI works in the US to arrest criminals. the CIA works outside the US to fight terrorism. I have seen no evidence that any of them directly and purposefully target civilians to kill. If they did they would be held accountable according to the law. Therein lies the difference between us and you.
 
BH_Manners said:
Greetings and Salutations friend.

First off, may I ask where you got the ideas that Muslims are not going to tell you the truth? If there is a Muslim that is lying or believes it is okay to lie please let me know. I need to speak to him for lying will send one to hell and we need to get this person repentant.

The ritual of cutting seen in the link and pictures is nowhere authorized in the Holy Quran. It is something that has been invented after the revelation of truth from God to Prophet Muhammed.

Accusing me or most other Muslims of believing in such ritual acts is about the same as accusing Catholics of believing the host and cup are just bread and grape juice because a denomination calling itself Church of Christ does.
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Acusations and counter acusations will not help…muslims do not seem to understand that the heart of this saga boils down to one main issue : democracy vs the caliphate. In western countries muslims are totally free to practice their faith…build mosques ; worship ; print the koran ect. ect. However you people know full well that religious freedoms are severely LACKING , and even sometimes non-existant in certain islamic states. Is an individual convert free to build a christian church ; print the bible ; purchase a bible ; associate with other potential converts…in Tehran , Damascus , Cairo or Riyadh ??? We all know the answer to this…and until the day arrives when the citizens of these states are truly free to decide for themselves , there will be distrust between the west and islam. It is also very important for you to realise that Jesus is seen by many to be an excellent example of a social democrat ; in other words he was opposed to any form of forced coercion…he always stood up for the poor and downtrodden ; but even more importantly he came to set mankind free !!! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jesus would be totally opposed to these regimes …and certain western states that promote abominations [abortion…ect.].I would appreciate a truthful answer !:confused:
 
Islam means “submission” - that tells you all you need to know about Islam. Muslims try and tell us it means “peace” - that tells you all you need to know about Muslims.

In the modern world Islam is associated with violence and war everywhere Muslims meet non-Muslims. So how can it be a religion of peace?
 
BH_Manners said:
The Holy Quran says there is to be no compulsion in religion. It is wrong to force people to convert to Islam.
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Does everyone remember the very public forced conversion of journalists Steve Centanni and Olaf Whig?
 
I remember. I also remember no public muslim outrage at this violation of the alleged “no compulsion in religion” bit they pull.
 
There is no compulsion. You always have a choice:
become a Muslim
become a dhimmi and be subservient and pay extra tax
die
that’s choice!👍
 
Eden said:
Does everyone remember the very public forced conversion of journalists Steve Centanni and Olaf Whig?
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and the worst thing is that if they renounce their “faith”, they can be summarily executed by any Muslim as apostates
 
Valke2 said:
Islam has a responsibility to the world and it is failing.
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I think you are wrong about this Islam is only responsible to Allah. and as far as Islam is concerned, it is doing quite well! The goal of Islam is to get rid of all the unbelievers (Hindus, Jews, Christians, etc) so that Islam can rule alone. Anyone who says they are muslim and are not helping with this mission is not a very good Muslim.
 
Future_Prodigy said:
the ideal white protestant

kkk.bz/

I’m only using your rational!!! ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF HATE, as a christian i take offence to that comment by the way!!!
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Sorry, did not mean to give offense. I was taught that “Islam” means “peace” and that peace come to those who “submit” (convert) and those who do not will come to the sword.
 
BH_Manners said:
You have not offended me at all and will not do so as long as while disagreeing with my religion you are personally respectful of me.

Because you do not believe my religion, I can understand that you will not respect it like I do.

The same goes for Catholicism. I have no respect for Catholicism as a religion because I believe it to be wrong, but I do have great respect for the people who believe in Catholicism. In addition I believe that lack of respect does not always entail disrespect.
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Why do you believe Catholicism is wrong?
 
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