A muslim example of an ideal mother

[guanophore]

Actually Islam is a religion of hate. I admit it. Faithful Muslims must hate many things-----injustice, sin, bad ethics, ignorance, and the like.

Tell me, are Catholicism and Protestantism religions of hate?

Yes, we are taught to hate those things, but we are taught that Love conquers all, and that we should separate ourselves from such bad things.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Yes, we are taught to hate those things, but we are taught that Love conquers all, and that we should separate ourselves from such bad things.

Could not agree with you more…one of the things i find astounding about many muslims i have met is that they think westerners are ok with the ‘evil’ emanating from western countries ; porn , abortion , moral degradation , prostitution ect. ect. When you tell them that the majority of ordinary citizens of these countries totally oppose these degrading values , they won’t/can’t believe you !!! Perhaps when they are free/capable of travel , then their eyes will be opened…until then we can only pray !

 

[Montalban]

The Holy Quran says there is to be no compulsion in religion. It is wrong to force people to convert to Islam.

This verse was abrogated, because in Islam one can be killed for being an Apostate.

Again, you fail to understand that the hadith contain many false doctrines created by evil people to further their own ends.

You’re resorting to just-so and statements of indignation.

 

[Montalban]

BH Manners:

The so-called Muslims who follow hadith in addition to the Holy Quran are in grievous error. Whatever you may say that applies to them has no bearing as far as my relationship with God is concerned.

Then you’re in a sub-group of Islam, featuring yourself alone. The majority of Moslems follow Hadith in addition to the Koran. Note, I evidenced my post, you give me indignant ‘just-so’ statements.

Hadith (الحديث transliteration: al-ḥadīth) are traditions relating to the words and deeds of Muhammad. Hadith collections are regarded as important tools for determining the Sunnah, or Muslim way of life, by all traditional schools of jurisprudence.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
BH Manners:

Prophet Muhammad was a man just like you or I. He is even rebuked a few times for personal shortcomings in the Holy Quran itself. While overall I am sure he was a good man he did have his faults.

Which are the shortcomings of the Koran?
He wasn’t like me because I don’t claim to be a prophet of God, nor do I have a desire to kill people who insult me, etc.
BH Manners:

The hadith are of no religious authority to me and many other Muslims. They may be of historical interest as far as the effect they had on Muslim societal development but it is wrong to say one must follow them regardless if most so-called Muslims do.

I can accept that they have no relevance on you. You’re wrong though to pretend that they’re not well-respected by the majority of Moslems.
BH Manners:

The infidels who are killed are killed in fighting. No where in this passage does it say that the POWs are to be killed.

The fighting can be over but if they don’t then submit, they’re killed.
BH Manners:

Look at 33:20. There were people who were fighting the Muslims and a few passages down it says the Jews sided with these infidels. The Jews and many infidels got killed because they were fighting and attacking Muslims. No where does this passage say to open season on all Jews either.

I don’t deny that people were fighting Moslems. This doesn’t at all negate that after the Banu Quaresh surrendered, they were slaughtered.
BH Manners:

Even if i were to grant the hadith spoke the truth I believe there is more to this story. The Jews supposedly had accepted the Prophet as their secular but not religious ruler and later backstabbed him by fighting against him after having done so before and lost. The Prophet supposedly was acting as a civil magistrate punishing people who were engaged in civil disco

a) you’ve offered no evidence about your view of the Hadith
b) you’ve offered no evidence that this tribe were not slaughtered
c) you revise events; they were indeed in treaty with Muhammad, but they did not actively fight for, nor against him, but remained neutral during a battle. Muhammad then suspected them. On that basis alone he had them laid siege to and then after they surrendered, slaughtered.

 

[Montalban]

Again more hadith. When the hadith says that the Quran is talking about a certain event or person but the Quran itself does not specifically say so I take it with a grain of salt. the hadith supporters have never proven to me that the hadith actually is reliable in this regard.

Your argument should then be restricted to “We reject the Hadith”

Not “All (or the majority of) Moslems reject the Hadith”, you’re misrepresenting the fiath.

Although to be fair I don’t see it, Moslems interpret the folloing Koranic verse as a support for death to Apostates.

002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
PICKTHAL: They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.
SHAKIR: They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah’s way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.217
Although there’s difference in opinion…
“All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

 

[BH_Manners]

Well you’re considered a kaffir by most Muslims then.

The Koran actually cannot be a meaningful basis for Islam by itself - and if you’re just going to pick and choose the Hadiths according to which you like, then having any meaningful discussion will be virtually impossible.
Do you pray 5 times a day?
Where does it say that in the Koran?

I have no use at all for the hadith, though a historian may have interest as a tool to understanding conflicts and religious arguments that have occurred over the years in the different sects that follow them.

 

[cestusdei]

Today the islamic terrorists used a car with 2 children in it to penetrate security and blow it up. I guess muslims do have human sacrifice. When will the muslims finally confront their problems and stop blaming everyone else?

 

[BH_Manners]

Today the islamic terrorists used a car with 2 children in it to penetrate security and blow it up. I guess muslims do have human sacrifice. When will the muslims finally confront their problems and stop blaming everyone else?

I blame the evil terrorists.

 

[BH_Manners]

The Quran does say to force people to convert to Islam. The verses that say there is to be no compulsion in religion were abrogated, that means they no longer stand, because they were replaced by the later verses which compel Muslims to force Islam on non-believers. The Medina-era Surahs are peaceful, but were later replace by the violent Mecca-era Surahs. The contrast between the Medina-era Mohammed versus Mecca-era Muhammed are crucial to understanding the abrogation of peaceful Surahs.

“When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called “al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh” (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses. The chronological timing in which a verse was written determines its authority to establish policies within Islam. Non-Muslims cannot afford to be ignorant about the full implications of the Abrogator and the Abrogated Doctrine (al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh). When Islamic spokesmen say that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Quran does not support such things as human rights infractions, gender bias and terrorism, they are lying. This means that the Western politicians and liberal journalists, who continually spout that Islam is a noble religion of peace, are in reality propagating a deception that they have been deceived into parroting.”

The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the Peace Verses.
An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…" Surah 9:5

The peaceful Surahs which were abrogated by Surah 9:5 are listed on this site:

islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml

Please read all of Sura 9. It mentions that Muslims were to continue to honor obligations and treaties with pagans who kept their word. The pagans who were to be fought had four months to get out of dodge so to speak. Why? If you read on they had been plotting against the Prophet and the other believers. In essence, they were backstabbing liars who could no longer be trusted. They had four months to either leave,fight and die, or convert. Pagans who kept their word and did not oppress the believers were to be left alone.

As for the abrogation doctrine, where is what you have said about it mentioned in the Quran?

 

[BH_Manners]

Jayda----

Hola.

I have not forgotten your post and am still looking for Quran verses.

Please be patient with me.

 

[BH_Manners]

Well you’re considered a kaffir by most Muslims then.

The Koran actually cannot be a meaningful basis for Islam by itself - and if you’re just going to pick and choose the Hadiths according to which you like, then having any meaningful discussion will be virtually impossible.
Do you pray 5 times a day?
Where does it say that in the Koran?

All I have found is the requirment to pray 3 times a day.

Yes, most of the hadith followers regard me as a Kaffir.

For those ignorant of these things that means the hadith followers would just as much see me dead as they would one of you.

 

[BH_Manners]

I would very much enjoy seeing you condemn those groups publically among muslims. Of course that could lead to your funeral and become evidence that we are right about islam. The NSA essentially decodes intelligence, the FBI works in the US to arrest criminals. the CIA works outside the US to fight terrorism. I have seen no evidence that any of them directly and purposefully target civilians to kill. If they did they would be held accountable according to the law. Therein lies the difference between us and you.

There is only one God and Islam is his religion. Islam is true regardless of the false doctrine and lies being taught in its name. If I were to die today God would still be and always be, and I trust in him and his love for me to raise me up on the last day to live in Paradise.

 

[BH_Manners]

Acusations and counter acusations will not help…muslims do not seem to understand that the heart of this saga boils down to one main issue : democracy vs the caliphate. In western countries muslims are totally free to practice their faith…build mosques ; worship ; print the koran ect. ect. However you people know full well that religious freedoms are severely LACKING , and even sometimes non-existant in certain islamic states. Is an individual convert free to build a christian church ; print the bible ; purchase a bible ; associate with other potential converts…in Tehran , Damascus , Cairo or Riyadh ??? We all know the answer to this…and until the day arrives when the citizens of these states are truly free to decide for themselves , there will be distrust between the west and islam. It is also very important for you to realise that Jesus is seen by many to be an excellent example of a social democrat ; in other words he was opposed to any form of forced coercion…he always stood up for the poor and downtrodden ; but even more importantly he came to set mankind free !!! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jesus would be totally opposed to these regimes …and certain western states that promote abominations [abortion…ect.].I would appreciate a truthful answer !

I agree that Prophet Jesus would not approve of a lot of things that go on in supposed Muslim countries today.

 

[BH_Manners]

Islam means “submission” - that tells you all you need to know about Islam. Muslims try and tell us it means “peace” - that tells you all you need to know about Muslims.

In the modern world Islam is associated with violence and war everywhere Muslims meet non-Muslims. So how can it be a religion of peace?

I have read that when peace is meant it is referring to a personal bliss like state. When one knows God is in control and we trust him we can have bliss in our lives despite troubles.

 

[BH_Manners]

Does everyone remember the very public forced conversion of journalists Steve Centanni and Olaf Whig?

I doubt it stuck.

 

[BH_Manners]

I remember. I also remember no public muslim outrage at this violation of the alleged “no compulsion in religion” bit they pull.

I am mad about it.

 

[BH_Manners]

and the worst thing is that if they renounce their “faith”, they can be summarily executed by any Muslim as apostates

Quranic source?

 

[BH_Manners]

And let’s not forget Iranian President Ahmedinejad’s letter to President Bush “inviting” him to “accept Islam”:

irna.ir/en/news/view/line-24/0605110155191821.htm

And Ahmedinejad’s follow-up threat given to Bush in the Mike Wallace interview:

“We are all free to choose. But please give him this message, sir: Those who refuse to accept an invitation will not have a good ending or fate.”

cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/09/60minutes/main1879867.shtml

The president of Iran does not necessarily speak for me.

 

[BH_Manners]

BH edit.

 

[BH_Manners]

Why do you believe Catholicism is wrong?

Because Catholicism is not Islam.