A Muslim's reflections on fundamental Christian doctrines

[famdigy]

I’d like to discuss with Christians the reasons for why God needs to be embodied in human form.

Why is it necessary for god to leave the immaterial world where he is free from any need (Where he is complete) and chose to enter the material world that is deficient. This material world that we can see, touch, smell etc… is deficient because every existing thing within it is at one point or another dependent on something else. For example, humans are dependent on water, oxygen, and body organs for their survival, therefore they are deficient because they are in constant need, the only complete being is the One that is free from any need.

which brings me to the main question here, why is it necessary for god to go from complete being to deficient being by taking a human body?

I think the Christian answer is that Jesus came to absolve us from Adams original sins. If this is true then did Jesus himself say that he came to die for us so that we are free from sin or did someone else say it on his behalf.

Just so that we are clear i’m asking for a first person account where jesus himself tells the reason for him taking human form. Biblical passages like John 3:16 “for god so loved the world” won’t answer my question because that is not Jesus speaking.

2nd, is it divinely just for the lord to punish a person for the sins of his father? We believe that god is absolved from performing the shameful actions and punishing an innocent person for the sins of others would make him an oppressor (god forbid)

Thanks, I look forward to reading some thought provoking answers, please don’t flame, spam, hate, or derail the topic.

 

[khutcheson]

I’d like to discuss with Christians the reasons for why God needs to be embodied in human form.

Why is it necessary for god to leave the immaterial world where he is free from any need (Where he is complete) and chose to enter the material world that is deficient. This material world that we can see, touch, smell etc… is deficient because every existing thing within it is at one point or another dependent on something else. For example, humans are dependent on water, oxygen, and body organs for their survival, therefore they are deficient because they are in constant need, the only complete being is the One that is free from any need.

which brings me to the main question here, why is it necessary for god to go from complete being to deficient being by taking a human body?

Who knows.

God is God. His ways are His ways. They are not ours.

 

[SaintNobody]

Why is it necessary for god to leave the immaterial world where he is free from any need (Where he is complete) and chose to enter the material world that is deficient.

God didn’t leave the immaterial world.

God always was, is and will forever be complete.

The incarnation was not absolutely necessary. That’s the beauty of it. He didn’t need to do it, he didn’t have to do it, but he did it anyway, gratuitously.

This material world that we can see, touch, smell etc… is deficient because every existing thing within it is at one point or another dependent on something else. For example, humans are dependent on water, oxygen, and body organs for their survival, therefore they are deficient because they are in constant need, the only complete being is the One that is free from any need.

I wouldn’t say “deficient”. I’d say “finite” or dependent. God made us dependent on other things and people, but that’s not a deficiency, that’s an intended design feature .

why is it necessary for god to go from complete being to deficient being by taking a human body?

God didn’t change at all. The divine nature remained exactly the same. What did change is that God adopted a human nature. It was not necessary at all. But he did it for our sake, for the sake of showing his solidarity with human beings.

I think the Christian answer is that Jesus came to absolve us from Adams original sins.

God foreordained that Jesus save humanity by taking on human nature and on behalf of all humanity pay the price of sin.

If you have a collective debt to a bank, for instance, the bank doesn’t care that it’s one person or a thousand that comes up with the money, as long as it’s paid.

It’s somewhat the same idea. Humanity as a collective owes a debt to God for Original Sin and for its sins in general. Jesus pays that debt.

 

[famdigy]

God foreordained that Jesus save humanity by taking on human nature and on behalf of all humanity pay the price of sin.

Thank you SaintNobody, but did Jesus himself say this in any clear terms or was it said on his behalf by a third party?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Why is it necessary for god to leave the immaterial world where he is free from any need (Where he is complete) and chose to enter the material world that is deficient. This material world that we can see, touch, smell etc… is deficient because every existing thing within it is at one point or another dependent on something else. For example, humans are dependent on water, oxygen, and body organs for their survival, therefore they are deficient because they are in constant need, the only complete being is the One that is free from any need.

which brings me to the main question here, why is it necessary for god to go from complete being to deficient being by taking a human body?

I think the Christian answer is that Jesus came to absolve us from Adams original sins. If this is true then did Jesus himself say that he came to die for us so that we are free from sin or did someone else say it on his behalf.

Just so that we are clear is there a first person account where jesus himself tells the reason for him taking human form. Biblical passages like John 3:16 “for god so loved the world” won’t answer my question because that is not Jesus speaking.

Thanks, I look forward to reading some thought provoking answers, please don’t flame, spam, hate, or derail the topic.

Why God chose this is beyond what we can imagine, but we do know it was the best path to helping us. Also God didnt go from “complete being” to “deficient being”, Jesus had two natures, the Divine (God) and a human (us men) and He retained both at the same time.

You are correct though, this does go back to the issue of Original Sin, Adam’s disobedience throwing the world in chaos. Original Sin, which is a Christian teaching/revelation, is the only answer to why God’s creation became corrupted.

As for knowing Jesus came to undo the effects of Adam’s disobedience, passages from the Apostles’ Epistles come to mind, but Muslims generally despise people like St Paul.

When Jesus talked He talked about the kingdom of darkness and Satan’s control on earth versus the kingdom of light and truth, for example:Jn 12:30Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world [Satan] will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Jn 12: 44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. 47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

2nd, is it divinely just for the lord to punish a person for the sins of his father? We believe that god is absolved from performing the shameful actions and punishing an innocent person for the sins of others would make him an oppressor (god forbid)

There is a real sense in which mankind was punished by their father Adam. God did not create suffering and death, those came as a result of man corrupting His creation. That explains why even infants can suffer and (sadly) die thought they did not sin themselves. We are born “fallen”, our hearts and minds are not originally directed towards God but towards ourselves, yet God has provided grace to re-direct our hearts.

When it comes to Divine punishment of Heaven or Hell, nobody who has not committed sin themself will undergo punishment. Punishment is proportional to how much you sinned, the more you sinned the worse your punishment.

 

[SaintNobody]

Thank you SaintNobody, but did Jesus himself say this in any clear terms or was it said on his behalf by a third party?

Well, in a sense, both.

Jesus was not recorded as saying, directly, everything I said.

It doesn’t mean it wasn’t divinely revealed.

Divine Revelation is not limited to the verbatim words of Jesus as written in the four Gospels.

And besides, the authority of the Bible comes from the Church, which comes from Jesus.

However, the words of Jesus, taken together, lead to the understanding that he was divine, took on human nature, offered himself for the ransom of the sins of humanity, as per the Father’s will.

We should not understand a person’s words in isolated context, especially in a text that is deliberately arranged, such as that of the Gospel. Words have a logic that is not explicit and they have a theological and cultural context.

 

[SaintNobody]

2nd, is it divinely just for the lord to punish a person for the sins of his father?

Original Sin is not a personal sin.

If a family contracts a debt and the debt isn’t paid, the whole family suffers. For instance, if the father doesn’t pay the mortgage and the bank forecloses on the house, the children suffer, but it’s not the children’s fault. The children, in a sense, still have to pay though. If one child is old enough to work, it only makes sense that he go out and work and pay the debt. An imperfect analogy, but I think one that explains the situation. It doesn’t seem fair that the child has to work when it’s really the dad’s fault, but the debt is still outstanding whether it’s fair or not fair for the child to pay it.

Jesus had what it takes to pay the debt for all of humanity, whereas the rest of humanity did not. He paid for the whole human family. It wasn’t Jesus’ fault that Adam sinned, but the fact that Jesus was willing to do something to repay a debt that wasn’t his fault makes his sacrifice all the greater.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi famdigy,

You may want to reflect on the following words said by Jesus…

John 12:23-24 - “The hour has now come for the Son of Man to receive great glory. I am telling you the truth: a grain of wheat remains no more than a single grain unless it is dropped into the ground and dies. If it does die, then it produces many grains.”

As a Christian, I see Jesus as the grain of wheat that dies, and we are the many grains that benefit from His death.

(I know you’re tempted to ask about the “Son of Man” phrase, but that would be a subject for a different thread.)

You also may want to consider that we have a Church because we don’t have a complete book about Jesus…

John 21:25 - Now, there are many other things that Jesus did. If they were all written down one by one, I suppose that the whole world could not hold the books that would be written.

If you are interested in extra-biblical research, may I suggest that you read about St Faustina and the Divine Mercy Devotion.

And as for your other question; I realise it seems unfair that we are punished for the sins of our fathers, but keep in mind also the suffering of Jesus.

Isaiah 53:10 - The Lord says, “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.”

I hope this helps.

 

[MH84]

Just so that we are clear i’m asking for a first person account where jesus himself tells the reason for him taking human form. Biblical passages like John 3:16 “for god so loved the world” won’t answer my question because that is not Jesus speaking.

Jesus is actually speaking in John 3:16:

John 3:
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?
11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d]
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203;&version=31;

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I do not see in the Bible that the Word of God in John 1:1 is anything more than what God says and speaks.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Now it is that prophets can also be called the Word of God, meaning they are humans that speak the Word of God.

But that is a different title that the Word of God that is God in John 1:1.

In other words, where does it say that God’s Word in John 1:1 is also God’s Son?

 

[MH84]

I do not see in the Bible that the Word of God in John 1:1 is anything more than what God says and speaks.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Now it is that prophets can also be called the Word of God, meaning they are humans that speak the Word of God.

But that is a different title that the Word of God that is God in John 1:1.

In other words, where does it say that God’s Word in John 1:1 is also God’s Son?

There is strong evidence here:

1. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men…
   14…**And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. **
2. Revelations 19: 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

bible.crosswalk.com/

 

[tmango]

which brings me to the main question here, why is it necessary for god to go from complete being to deficient being by taking a human body?

The answer is to fulfill the scriptures. Luke 24:46-49…“Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things, And behold I am sending the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Old testament prophecies are fulfilled in Christ. Christ’s statement to the effect that everything foretold about him had come true. By doing so he shows the unity of Old and New Testaments and that Jesus is truly the Messiah.

Luke 12:49-53…“I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to establish peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daighter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

The Navarre Bible states that fire is often used to describe God’s burning love for men. This love finds its highest expression in the Son of God becoming man. Jesus voluntarily gave up his life out of love for us.

I hope this helps.

 

[Booklover]

I’d like to discuss with Christians the reasons for why God needs to be embodied in human form.

Why is it necessary for god to leave the immaterial world where he is free from any need (Where he is complete) and chose to enter the material world that is deficient. This material world that we can see, touch, smell etc… is deficient because every existing thing within it is at one point or another dependent on something else. For example, humans are dependent on water, oxygen, and body organs for their survival, therefore they are deficient because they are in constant need, the only complete being is the One that is free from any need.

which brings me to the main question here, why is it necessary for god to go from complete being to deficient being by taking a human body?

I think the Christian answer is that Jesus came to absolve us from Adams original sins. If this is true then did Jesus himself say that he came to die for us so that we are free from sin or did someone else say it on his behalf.

Just so that we are clear i’m asking for a first person account where jesus himself tells the reason for him taking human form. Biblical passages like John 3:16 “for god so loved the world” won’t answer my question because that is not Jesus speaking.

2nd, is it divinely just for the lord to punish a person for the sins of his father? We believe that god is absolved from performing the shameful actions and punishing an innocent person for the sins of others would make him an oppressor (god forbid)

Thanks, I look forward to reading some thought provoking answers, please don’t flame, spam, hate, or derail the topic.

He did it out of love for all mankind. We cannot come to him, so he came to us.

Vickie

 

[thedavidwilson]

I do not see in the Bible that the Word of God in John 1:1 is anything more than what God says and speaks.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Now it is that prophets can also be called the Word of God, meaning they are humans that speak the Word of God.

But that is a different title that the Word of God that is God in John 1:1.

In other words, where does it say that God’s Word in John 1:1 is also God’s Son?

How does God speak? He does not have a mouth. When we say the Word and the Son of God we are using analogies, hence the capital letters. Since God are infinite, we finite beings must use analogies to describe him.

 

[MH84]

How does God speak? He does not have a mouth. When we say the Word and the Son of God we are using analogies, hence the capital letters. Since God are infinite, we finite beings must use analogies to describe him.

Capital letters were not part of the ancient texts.I think that the English translators capitalise words according to their own interpretation.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Capital letters were not part of the ancient texts.I think that the English translators capitalise words according to their own interpretation.

We do not have the scripture of the vacuum. We have writings from the early Church Fathers and early sermons that tell us what the writers of the Gospels meant. The capital letters show us this meaning.