A new and devastating quickie against Faith Alone?

[Cathoholic]

JonNC.

You said . . .

. . . Justification is a gift, not earned or merited by anything we do. . . .

Is justification “earned” by your faith?

If the answer is “no, because our faith is a grace”, then why use this in the context of opposition concerning Catholic teachings on the necessity of grace works?

Why can’t Catholics make the SAME CLAIM about their faith AND works?

"No (we don’t earn our salvation) because our faith AND our charity are graces."

---

You also said . . .

justification is a work of God in us, that we are therefore only justified by faith . . .

Considering Catholic teaching, your statement suggests to me, that Catholics affirm MORE graces given to us concerning justification than you seem to.

We believe Jesus gave us even MORE justifying gifts.

We Catholics believe a FULLER Gospel of what the Holy Spirit taught through the Scriptures about all of the justification issue.

 

[JonNC]

=Cathoholic;14362566]
Is justification “earned” by your faith?

If the answer is “no, because our faith is a grace”, then why use this in the context of opposition concerning Catholic teachings on the necessity of grace works?

First, I do t believe I responded in the context of opposition to Catholic teaching. Please check the context again.
Second, faith is indeed a gift of grace. With those baptized as infants, that is where faith begins, because of grace.

Why can’t Catholics make the SAME CLAIM about their faith AND works?

I never said you can’t.

B]“No (we don’t earn our salvation) because our faith AND our charity are graces.”

I have found that to be a reasonable position. My concern is the claim of merit.

Considering Catholic teaching, your statement suggests to me, that Catholics affirm MORE graces given to us concerning justification than you seem to.

We believe Jesus gave us even MORE justifying gifts.

Ive never thought to quantify it that way. I do thank God for the graces all of us receive through His means of grace, the sacraments.

Jon

 

[Cathoholic]

With those baptized as infants, that is where faith begins, because of grace.

I get that JonNC.

But our justification is not a mere moment alone.

Justification is a moment followed by a process . . . a lifelong process.

 

[JonNC]

I get that JonNC.

But our justification is not a mere moment alone.

Justification is a moment followed by a process . . . a lifelong process.

I’ve never considered justification some instantaneous, one moment event. At least, I can’t can’t point to that moment and say, "that’s when it happened ".

By grace, faith has grown all of my life. From the perspective of my faith upbringing, the growth in grace we both acknowledge and thank God for, is referred to as sanctification.

Jon

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC. You stated . . .

I’ve never considered justification some instantaneous, one moment event. At least, I can’t can’t point to that moment and say, "that’s when it happened ".

By grace, faith has grown all of my life. From the perspective of my faith upbringing, the growth in grace we both acknowledge and thank God for, is referred to as sanctification.

OK.

But for me, I CAN point to a moment - Baptism.

This is the moment I was initially justified.

But then, by the grace of God AND my cooperation, I need to continue on the path of justification.

St. John in the book of Revelation puts it this way . . . .

REVELATION 22:11b and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The Council of Trent explains . . . .

COUNCIL OF TRENT CHAPTER X.

On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. . . .

Justification and sanctification are not the same thing, but they are closely related. That’s WHY St. Paul can say . . . .

2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[JonNC]

=

Cathoholic;14365196]

But for me, I CAN point to a moment - Baptism.

This is the moment I was initially justified.

Well, since justification is by faith, and faith is by gave, and in our baptism we are regenerated, I think one can make the case.

But then, by the grace of God AND my cooperation, I need to continue on the path of justification.

Our ability to cooperate is only by grace. But yes, if we choose to reject grace and not cooperate, we will not continue in justifying faith.

Justification and sanctification are not the same thing, but they are closely related.

Agreed

 

[SolaScriptura]

Whatever else maybe present at the time of justification(e.g. love, hope, repentance,doubt, fear, anxiousness) they are not the instrumental cause of justification. It is faith alone that is mentioned in Scripture as the instrumental cause of justification. For example in Galatians 3:2 the Apostle Paul asks the Galatians:

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith

?

The reason why Paul asks this question is evident from reading the book of Acts. When the gospel was being proclaimed to the Gentiles the Holy Spirit would come upon them and they started to speak in tongues. This was the sin que non evidence that God had accepted the Gentiles as members of His family. Even Peter confirms this when he explains his acceptance of the Gentiles in Acts 11:15:

15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

So as both Paul and Peter confirm, the Gentiles were hearing the Gospel with faith, and they were given the Holy Spirit as their acceptance by God in the family of God. Not hearing the Gospel with faith and love, not hearing the Gospel with faith and hope, or faith and anything else. This therefore is faith alone.

Ronnie

 

[Cathoholic]

SolaScriptura. You said (emphasis mine):

Whatever else maybe present at the time of justification(e.g. love, hope, repentance,doubt, fear, anxiousness) they are not the instrumental cause of justification. It is faith alone that is mentioned in Scripture as the instrumental cause of justification. For example in Galatians 3:2 the Apostle Paul asks the Galatians:

Quote:
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith

Please show me WHERE in Scripture it talks about faith ALONE SolaScriptura?

The Galatians 3:2 quote you gave necessitates at least SOME works SolaScriptura.

Why do you think any “works” are equivalent to "works of “the law” or works of “torah”? Especially considering that the context of Galatians here concerns the work of Torah or Mosaic Law of “circumcision”.

WHERE is THAT teaching in Scripture SolaScriptura?

WHERE is ANY “works” are equivalent to "works of “the law” or works of “torah” in Scripture?

---

As to your comment about “faith ALONE” being the “instrumental cause” of our justification, that’s just a half-truth.

This (including an extended quote from Trent) from Taylor Marshall (with bold mine) . . . . .

. . . . The Decree on Justification (Session Six decretum de iustificatione) from the Council of Trent contains sixteen brief chapters and then condemns thirty-three opinions of the Protestant Reformers.

Perhaps the most important passage in the decree is the seventh chapter listing the “five causes of justification.” They are as follows:

1. the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting

1. the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance

1. the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father

1. the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified

1. lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.

Note that the meritorious cause is the suffering and death of Christ. Human being are not the source of the justifying merit. Note also that the sacraments are “instrumental”. The sacraments are the “instruments” in the hand of Christ.

The formal cause is the “justice of God” not our own justice. Nevertheless, we receive His “justice within us, each one according to his own measure.” . . . .

pauliscatholic.com/2009/09/the-five-causes-of-justification-in-catholic-theology/

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC. You said . . . .

. . . . if we choose to reject grace and not cooperate, we will not continue in justifying faith.

First of all, I just want to assert here that Catholics AFFIRM the need for supernatural faith.

I know YOU know that JonNC, but there may be readers here who don’t.

We need to be drawn by God (prevenient grace).

We respond with a natural faith (which is necessary but not good enough).

Then in Baptism, we get supernatural faith, hope, and charity (poured into us at our Baptism). THIS is what we need.

This is the moment of our justification. We didn’t “earn” this GIFT of God’s Divine LIFE within us which supernaturalizes faith, hope, and charity, nor could we “earn” this.

But Baptism is just the entrance ramp to our Justification.

Once we have the moment of justification . . . .it then becomes a process of justification—a lifelong process.

We have been given “talents” and we NEED to then do something (by grace to be sure) with those “talents”.

See background for Parable of talents here,
See information on Parable of Talents here.

Again. After our “moment” of justification, justification then becomes a lifelong process.

That’s WHY the book of Revelation says “He that is just, let him be justified still.”

Trent quotes this too saying . . . .

COUNCIL OF TRENT CHAPTER X.

**On the increase of Justification received. **

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

OK. The 30 second Catholic encapsulation of Justification done (with leaving out a LOT).

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC. You said . . . .

. . . . if we choose to reject grace and not cooperate, we will not continue in justifying faith.

I think the above statement is nebulous enough where I want to make some clarification for other readers here (in case they misinterpret what you are saying Jon).

If you mean a justifying faith is a supernatural faith that is accompanied by supernatural hope and supernatural charity that is correct.

**

• Justifying Faith by definition NEEDS supernatural faith, hope,and charity

**

And then if later someone now chooses to throw ANY of these graces away, then that person (for the time being at least) is NOT SAVED.

I agree with this too.

But some people wrongly think if you lose your charity, your supernatural faith will automatically be gone too.

St. Paul warns us that persevering in faith, while NOT persevering in charity, will be of no avail to us (notice you CAN persevere in faith but NOT charity).

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

And notice what St. Paul DOESN’T say . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 (a phantom verse) 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, why this situation would be ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.

And St. Paul doesn’t say this either . . . . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 (Another phantom verse) 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . . 13 So faith, hope, love don’t abide this kind of faith, because this is merely a “fake faith”.

No!

St. Paul tells us in this context to ABIDE by this faith!

So we KNOW it’s not a “false faith” he is talking about here . . . .

And if it is a faith that “removes mountains” it is NOT a mere “natural” faith either.

St. Paul warns there IS the potential for supernatural faith without love.

St. Paul tells us in this context to ABIDE by this supernatural faith!

So we KNOW it’s not a “false faith” he is talking about here.

St. Paul wouldn’t teach this in the context of 1st Corinthians 13 if the “faith” here concerned a “fake faith”.

Faith MUST be animated by charity (which is even MORE important than faith St. Paul says) if it is going to save.

And if a supernatural faith is void of charity, you gain . . . .

1. Heaven (because after all I have “faith”)?
2. Nothing?

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

---

Summary:

• St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 talks about the real possibility of faith without charity (and it isn’t pretty).
• St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 talks about how we still should “ABIDE” by this faith (“abide these three”) . . . so we KNOW it’s not a “fake faith”. But this supernatural faith by itself is not enough.
• St. Paul in this context says charity is more important than faith. St. Paul explicitly says the virtue of “charity” is greater than the necessary virtue of “faith”-- faith to move mountains no less! (“the greatest of these is charity” or “the greatest of these is love”)

 

[SolaScriptura]

Please show me WHERE in Scripture it talks about faith ALONE SolaScriptura?

That is what I just did.

Paul in Galatians 3:2 and the Apostle Peter in Acts 11:15-17 both make the point that Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit when they were hearing the Gospel and combined that with faith. So tell me, if they were listening to the Gospel being proclaimed and received the Holy Spirit at that point, what work were they doing? Furthermore, what was the cause of their receiving the Holy Spirit mentioned by the Apostles besides faith(i.e. faith alone )?

Answer those questions and you have faith alone. No one is claiming the exact words “faith alone” have to appear for it to be true. Just like the Trinity and many other words do not appear for the concept to be true.

 

[JonNC]

=Cathoholic;14366804]

First of all, I just want to assert here that Catholics AFFIRM the need for supernatural faith.

I know YOU know that JonNC, but there may be readers here who don’t.

We need to be drawn by God (prevenient grace).

All good.

We respond with a natural faith (which is necessary but not good enough).

Explain further.

Then in Baptism, we get supernatural faith, hope, and charity (poured into us at our Baptism). THIS is what we need.

This is the moment of our justification. We didn’t “earn” this GIFT of God’s Divine LIFE within us which supernaturalizes faith, hope, and charity, nor could we “earn” this.

But Baptism is just the entrance ramp to our Justification.

I wouldn’t argue against this concept.

Once we have the moment of justification . . . .it then becomes a process of justification—a lifelong process.

We have been given “talents” and we NEED to then do something (by grace to be sure) with those “talents”.

See background for Parable of talents here,
See information on Parable of Talents here.

Again. After our “moment” of justification, justification then becomes a lifelong process.

That’s WHY the book of Revelation says “He that is just, let him be justified still.”

Catholics call this growth a lifelong process of justification. In my Lutheran upbringing we called it growth in grace, sanctification. The words of my Lutheran confirmation:
**The Father in heaven, for Jesus’ sake, renew and increase in thee the gift of the Holy Ghost, to thy strengthening in faith, to thy growth in grace, to thy patience in suffering, and to the blessed hope of everlasting life. **

Jon

 

[JonNC]

That is what I just did.

Paul in Galatians 3:2 and the Apostle Peter in Acts 11:15-17 both make the point that Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit when they were hearing the Gospel and combined that with faith. So tell me, if they were listening to the Gospel being proclaimed and received the Holy Spirit at that point, what work were they doing? Furthermore, what was the cause of their receiving the Holy Spirit mentioned by the Apostles besides faith(i.e. faith alone )?

Answer those questions and you have faith alone. No one is claiming the exact words “faith alone” have to appear for it to be true. Just like the Trinity and many other words do not appear for the concept to be true.

St. Paul, AFAIK, mentions only faith - grace through faith - with the caveat that it be a faith working through love. Galatian 5:6

To which Luther responds beautifully,
** Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men. **

This is in keeping with Christ’s words:
** Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets. **
Matthew 22

Jon

 

[SolaScriptura]

St. Paul, AFAIK, mentions only faith - grace through faith - with the caveat that it be a faith working through love. Galatian 5:6

To which Luther responds beautifully,
** Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men. **

This is in keeping with Christ’s words:
** Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets. **
Matthew 22

Jon

Yes. No one claims there are not other things present at the time of justification. There may even be some vices, but these things are not mentioned as the instrumental cause of justification. It is only faith that is mentioned and therefore it is faith alone.

 

[JonNC]

Yes. No one claims there are not other things present at the time of justification. There may even be some vices, but these things are not mentioned as the instrumental cause of justification. It is only faith that is mentioned and therefore it is faith alone.

Then you agree that a faith that does not work through love is not a justifying faith, and that one can choose after justification to reject grace and lose justification

 

[SolaScriptura]

Then you agree that a faith that does not work through love is not a justifying faith, and that one can choose after justification to reject grace and lose justification

Yes, I would agree that a justifying faith will work through love, however faith alone is the instrumental cause of justification. Is that something you agree with?

No, I don’t believe one that is justified can lose it.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, I would agree that a justifying faith will work through love, however faith alone is the instrumental cause of justification. Is that something you agree with?

No, I don’t believe one that is justified can lose it.

Yes, justification is accessed by grace through faith.

No, the individual has the free will to reject grace, even once justified.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes, justification is accessed by grace through faith.

No, the individual has the free will to reject grace, even once justified.

Do you mean by grace alone through faith alone or just grace through faith, which means all other things need to be added? If so explain the Apostle’s word that I initially quoted.

Remember it is God who justifies, who is he that condemns?

 

[JonNC]

Do you mean by grace alone through faith alone or just grace through faith, which means all other things need to be added? If so explain the Apostle’s word that I initially quoted.

Remember it is God who justifies, who is he that condemns?

No. By grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. But I don’t think that just because Paul doesn’t say alone that it means more must somehow be added

 

[Duane1966]

Yes, I would agree that a justifying faith will work through love, however faith alone is the instrumental cause of justification. Is that something you agree with?

No, I don’t believe one that is justified can lose it.

Are the righteous justified?