They are, indeed. Even the question of what is meant by "the Church that Christ established " is subject to debate. Is papal infallibility a twisting of the meaning or scripture ?
- Status
D
Duane1966
Guest
Jon, do you agree that Peter was the first pope?
D
Duane1966
Guest
Hi Jon, everything is subject to debate. That is why you have some churches that say Paul is not Scripture now. I easily see papal infallibility in the Scriptures, like I see the Trinity.
Do you believe Christ established a visible Church?
Would it last into perpetuity?
If yes, what Church was it at the time of Nicaea?
Do you believe Peter was the first pope?
B
benhur
Guest
Hi D,
Well, sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, it is always darkest before dawn. And I would say the Catholic Church certainly did not reform doctrine but certainly its practices.
I would say that the many minorities that were served by quotas wouldnot say things got worse for them.
I would say that the souls that that stopped premeditated sin knowing it could be "covered"by the coin falling into Tetzel’s box were not worse off.
But I agree, that ultimately truth in love and wisdom is heavenly.
Blessings
D
Duane1966
Guest
Agreed
I know some who say their life in the workplace was hell because they were looked at as unqualified.
Tetzel never taught what you are saying in this line. You better read up on indulgences, and what actually happens with them, and how they relate to sin. I recommend New Advent, for the source… Many historians now doubt whether Tetzel ever said the famous jingle attributed to him.
Yes, I believe in a visible Church. It is where one finds the faithful gathered round word and sacrament.
Yes, it will last into perpetuity.
At the time of Nicaea, it was the undivided Church Catholic.
St Peter was, indeed, the first Bishop of Rome.
I also believe that what these meant at Nicaea is different than what Rome claims today.
Even so, all of the above are true
Jon
L
LatinRight
Guest
God bless Catholic Dude,I think I’ve come across a new and devastating simple argument against the Protestant doctrine of faith alone: We know that Paul says we are saved by “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6) and that James says faith without love (works) is dead (James 2:24-26). Protestants answer these passages by saying that we aren’t saved without love because love always accompanies true faith. But can this be?
If love always accompanies true faith, this means that prior to justification, a person with true faith also has love for God. But a person who is unsaved by definition cannot have love for God, and thus the Protestant claim is false. This means that justification is what bestows love upon the believer, and that prior to justification the person only has dead faith. This means what saves us is ultimately the love we have, which can also be lost by mortal sin, and that faith alone isn’t enough. And thus the Protestant doctrine of Faith Alone is turned on its head, because they want “justified by faith” to mean “eternally saved by faith alone,” yet all Paul really means by this is “faith receives love,” and from there we must persevere in love to the end (Rom 13:8-14).
I did my homework on the subject of our salvation.
THE SALVATION OF THE ELECT
Both Catholics and Protestants believe we have been saved by Formed Faith Alone.
The Catholic and Protestant teachings on salvation practically identical.
JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly
encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed
faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.
**Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH
a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**
Every child/elect of God at baptism is a recipient of God’s formed faith, this faith always
alive and always saves us even if we don’t do an iota of good work which is count for anything.
Good work is neither condition of our justification nor the condition for us to enter into heaven.
Our entrance to the state of grace at our baptism PRECEDES our future good works.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
Quote: **CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582). End quote. Emphasis mine.
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something **NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,** but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings
out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the **ONLY
KIND** that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis mine.
As we see above, the standard to do good work/supernatural merit is VERY VERY HIGH.
If I work for the reason to get my salvation or to keep my salvation or to complete my
salvation * my works done for my salvation is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and I
will enter to heaven without an act of good work and without any reward of God. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Unless we leading a lifestyle of faith alone – (as Pope Benedict XVI pointed out), we will
enter to heaven Faith Alone because **all our faithless graceless works done for our
salvation will goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works.** – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Continue*
Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**
The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its
object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL
GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the
Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582). End quote. Emphasis mine.
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something **NOT
BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,** but because we want to do it out of SHEER
LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings
out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the **ONLY
KIND** that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasis mine.
As we see above, the standard to do good work/supernatural merit is VERY VERY HIGH.
If I work for the reason to get my salvation or to keep my salvation or to complete my
salvation * my works done for my salvation is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and I
will enter to heaven without an act of good work and without any reward of God. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Unless we leading a lifestyle of faith alone – (as Pope Benedict XVI pointed out), we will
enter to heaven Faith Alone because **all our faithless graceless works done for our
salvation will goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works.** – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Continue*
L
LatinRight
Guest
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is **ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED? **
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
Church Watch 02/06/09
POPE BENEDICT XVI ‘LUTHER WAS RIGHT’
"Luther would have been amazed at the efforts of the Vatican today to put the Bible back
into the heart of the Roman Catholic Church," writes Jeff Fountain of Christian Today.
Fountain reports that during Pope Benedict XVI’s recent weekly public addresses in St.
Peter’s Square, he quoted Martin Luther in declaring “Sola fide,” that salvation is by faith alone.
According to this report, **Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s
words as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide.**
According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road
conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules. However, after
meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone. End quote.
**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church **
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts
as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in
Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is
NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification.
For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a
human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying
grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s
unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -
FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasis mine.
Continue
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is **ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED? **
We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
Church Watch 02/06/09
POPE BENEDICT XVI ‘LUTHER WAS RIGHT’
"Luther would have been amazed at the efforts of the Vatican today to put the Bible back
into the heart of the Roman Catholic Church," writes Jeff Fountain of Christian Today.
Fountain reports that during Pope Benedict XVI’s recent weekly public addresses in St.
Peter’s Square, he quoted Martin Luther in declaring “Sola fide,” that salvation is by faith alone.
According to this report, **Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s
words as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide.**
According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road
conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules. However, after
meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone. End quote.
**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church **
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts
as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in
Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is
NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification.
For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a
human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying
grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s
unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -
FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasis mine.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
GOD SAVES US IN THREE STAGES
To understand our salvation we must understand each stages of our salvation.
There is a 500 years debate between Catholics and Protestants the way God saves His elect.
THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND OUR SALVATION
When a Protestant speaks about salvation always speaks about the first stage of our salvation.
We could call this first stage of salvation Legal salvation/100 % Legal
Right of the elect to enter to heaven (initial justification/salvation).
LEGAL SALVATION / 100 % IRREVOCABLE LEGAL RIGHT OF THE ELECT TO ENTER HEAVEN.
Our salvation is by FORMED FAITH ALONE.
Catholics in general call this first stage of salvation initial justification.
Many Protestants believe and correctly, at the first stage of their salvation at baptism as
God’s free gift they received 100 % irrevocable Legal Right to enter to heaven (Catholics
call this first stage of salvation initial justification/salvation).
When a Catholic speaking about salvation most of the time speaking about the second
stage of salvation which takes place from baptism until the end of earthly life, which is continues event.
Some Catholic wrongly believe, they gain the 100% Legal right to enter into heaven at the
end of the second stage of their salvation when they worked enough and successfully completed their salvation.
This is a COLOSSAL mistake because all their lifetime hard works goes up in
smoke at the judgment of their works and they enter into heaven without any reward. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Working on to get more just and more holy, plus to do other works as well at the second
stage of our salvation is NOTHING to do with our 100 % irrevocable Legal right to enter to
heaven. – We already have this 100 % irrevocable Legal right to enter to heaven from our baptism. Period.
Continue
To understand our salvation we must understand each stages of our salvation.
There is a 500 years debate between Catholics and Protestants the way God saves His elect.
THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND OUR SALVATION
When a Protestant speaks about salvation always speaks about the first stage of our salvation.
We could call this first stage of salvation Legal salvation/100 % Legal
Right of the elect to enter to heaven (initial justification/salvation).
LEGAL SALVATION / 100 % IRREVOCABLE LEGAL RIGHT OF THE ELECT TO ENTER HEAVEN.
Our salvation is by FORMED FAITH ALONE.
Catholics in general call this first stage of salvation initial justification.
Many Protestants believe and correctly, at the first stage of their salvation at baptism as
God’s free gift they received 100 % irrevocable Legal Right to enter to heaven (Catholics
call this first stage of salvation initial justification/salvation).
When a Catholic speaking about salvation most of the time speaking about the second
stage of salvation which takes place from baptism until the end of earthly life, which is continues event.
Some Catholic wrongly believe, they gain the 100% Legal right to enter into heaven at the
end of the second stage of their salvation when they worked enough and successfully completed their salvation.
This is a COLOSSAL mistake because all their lifetime hard works goes up in
smoke at the judgment of their works and they enter into heaven without any reward. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Working on to get more just and more holy, plus to do other works as well at the second
stage of our salvation is NOTHING to do with our 100 % irrevocable Legal right to enter to
heaven. – We already have this 100 % irrevocable Legal right to enter to heaven from our baptism. Period.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
THE WAY AS FOLLOWS – God saves us in three stages.
1. FIRST STAGE OF OUR SALVATION (Initial justification/salvation.)
As God’s children/elect in this first stage of our salvation at our baptism we have
received 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven **as
God’s free gift. – DE FIDE Catholic Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).**
Our 100 % Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven can never be revoked.
Christ merited for us paid in full on the cross.
THIS MEANS
We need to understand:
It is a big difference between our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Salvation (at the first stage of
our salvation/initial justification), and our practical salvation (at the second stage of our
salvation).** – The two are not the same.**
a. LEGALLY SAVED / LEGAL SALVATION / INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
At our baptism as elect we have been Irrevocably, and Legally 100 % Saved.
God justified us and made us sons of God.
Our Legal and Irrevocable Salvation is COMPLETED.
Until now and from this point on we can contribute nothing to our Legal Salvation.
It is God’s free gift, Christ merited for us paid in full on the cross. Period.
End of the first stage of our salvation.
The first stage of our salvation was solely the work of God we didn’t and couldn’t even co-
operate in it, it was an INSTANT event at our baptism.
Continue
1. FIRST STAGE OF OUR SALVATION (Initial justification/salvation.)
As God’s children/elect in this first stage of our salvation at our baptism we have
received 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven **as
God’s free gift. – DE FIDE Catholic Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).**
Our 100 % Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven can never be revoked.
Christ merited for us paid in full on the cross.
THIS MEANS
We need to understand:
It is a big difference between our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Salvation (at the first stage of
our salvation/initial justification), and our practical salvation (at the second stage of our
salvation).** – The two are not the same.**
a. LEGALLY SAVED / LEGAL SALVATION / INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
At our baptism as elect we have been Irrevocably, and Legally 100 % Saved.
God justified us and made us sons of God.
Our Legal and Irrevocable Salvation is COMPLETED.
Until now and from this point on we can contribute nothing to our Legal Salvation.
It is God’s free gift, Christ merited for us paid in full on the cross. Period.
End of the first stage of our salvation.
The first stage of our salvation was solely the work of God we didn’t and couldn’t even co-
operate in it, it was an INSTANT event at our baptism.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
**THE SECOND STAGE OF OUR SALVATION
b. WE COULD CALL THIS OUR PRACTICAL SALVATION**
This second stage of our salvation is done by Faith + Works. – This works cannot be
contributed to our 100 % completed and irrevocable Legal salvation which we have received at our baptism.
In this second stage of our salvation (from baptism until we die) we have a chance **to put
as much supernatural work/merit under our belts as we can.**
For example:
Phil.2:12-15; We work out our salvation, …
In this stage of our salvation we work as ambassadors of Christ.
We do every kind of Christian works includes work on to increase our holiness and justice day by day.
For our good works/supernatural merit God gives us rewards in heaven.
It cannot be the reward of heaven because we have received God’s gift of everlasting life in heaven at our baptism.
We have heaven already by Christ merit on the cross. – It was God’s free gift.
THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE GREATEST CONFUSION COMES IN BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS
With our works (in our second stage of our salvation), we can increase our holiness and
justice, **but this ongoing work DOES NOT increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal
Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.**
If a Christian doesn’t understand the above theological fact, doesn’t understand salvation.
For the simple reason, which is:
At our baptism (at the first stage of our salvation) God has already given to us as His free
gift: Our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.
For the above reason we cannot increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to
enter to heaven and we don’t need to increase it because we have it all since our baptism.
We don’t need to work for something and we cannot work for something what we already have.
Some theologically uneducated Christian believes, when we continually increase our
justification and sanctification, in the same way we continually increase our Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.
This is not the case at all, because at our baptism we have received as God’s free gift our
100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven. – This 100 % Right CAN NOT be increased.
Continue
b. WE COULD CALL THIS OUR PRACTICAL SALVATION**
This second stage of our salvation is done by Faith + Works. – This works cannot be
contributed to our 100 % completed and irrevocable Legal salvation which we have received at our baptism.
In this second stage of our salvation (from baptism until we die) we have a chance **to put
as much supernatural work/merit under our belts as we can.**
For example:
Phil.2:12-15; We work out our salvation, …
In this stage of our salvation we work as ambassadors of Christ.
We do every kind of Christian works includes work on to increase our holiness and justice day by day.
For our good works/supernatural merit God gives us rewards in heaven.
It cannot be the reward of heaven because we have received God’s gift of everlasting life in heaven at our baptism.
We have heaven already by Christ merit on the cross. – It was God’s free gift.
THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE GREATEST CONFUSION COMES IN BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS
With our works (in our second stage of our salvation), we can increase our holiness and
justice, **but this ongoing work DOES NOT increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal
Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.**
If a Christian doesn’t understand the above theological fact, doesn’t understand salvation.
For the simple reason, which is:
At our baptism (at the first stage of our salvation) God has already given to us as His free
gift: Our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.
For the above reason we cannot increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to
enter to heaven and we don’t need to increase it because we have it all since our baptism.
We don’t need to work for something and we cannot work for something what we already have.
Some theologically uneducated Christian believes, when we continually increase our
justification and sanctification, in the same way we continually increase our Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.
This is not the case at all, because at our baptism we have received as God’s free gift our
100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven. – This 100 % Right CAN NOT be increased.
Continue
L
LatinRight
Guest
THE THIRD STAGE OF OUR SALVATION
Even of those Christians who died 2,000 years ago their salvation not yet completed.
Our salvation will be completed and we will be immortal at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3;
1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; Rev.20:4-6.
Then fulfill Dan.7:13-14, 18, 22, 27.
The above Bible verses describe the future tasks of the Bride of Christ.
If you like to know your future assignment from Christ, please read it.
Every member of the Bride of Christ is a saint of God. – 1 Pet.2:9; etc.
**In the light of the Catholic teachings and the Scriptures, the way I do supernatural work **
God gives me reward in heaven** if my work is up to the standard of supernatural merit.**
But if I do my work to get my salvation or to keep my salvation **I do my work for my
own interest and that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God. **– 1 Cor.3:12-15.
work or not to work without the fear of hell.** – **This is a condition to do supernatural merit. **
There are other conditions as well. – It is not so simple to do supernatural merit. The standard is VERY HIGH.
want to do it out of SHEER for the Glory of God and for the love of others.
If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.
If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY for the GLORY OF GOD. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**
MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.
God bless,
LatinRight
Even of those Christians who died 2,000 years ago their salvation not yet completed.
Our salvation will be completed and we will be immortal at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3;
1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; Rev.20:4-6.
Then fulfill Dan.7:13-14, 18, 22, 27.
The above Bible verses describe the future tasks of the Bride of Christ.
If you like to know your future assignment from Christ, please read it.
Every member of the Bride of Christ is a saint of God. – 1 Pet.2:9; etc.
**In the light of the Catholic teachings and the Scriptures, the way I do supernatural work **
- I always keep in mind Eph.2:10.
- I believe Rom.4:5-6; Eph.2:8-9; Rom.3:24; Rom.5:18; Rom.11:6; that I don’t have to
God gives me reward in heaven** if my work is up to the standard of supernatural merit.**
But if I do my work to get my salvation or to keep my salvation **I do my work for my
own interest and that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God. **– 1 Cor.3:12-15.
- I believe, according to Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:12-15; etc. **even if I do nothing or all my work
work or not to work without the fear of hell.** – **This is a condition to do supernatural merit. **
There are other conditions as well. – It is not so simple to do supernatural merit. The standard is VERY HIGH.
- I work as much as I possibly can, FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or
want to do it out of SHEER for the Glory of God and for the love of others.
If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.
If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.
We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,
WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY for the GLORY OF GOD. **– The work we
MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**
MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.
God bless,
LatinRight
D
Duane1966
Guest
Thanks for your reply Jon. If Antioch had decided to reject the Council of Jerusalem, they would still have been practicing word and sacrament. So in your opinion they would still have to have been part of that visible Church, correct?
Jon, you have just made undivided the criteria for Christ’s Church. Under this criteria, the visible Church clearly has not lasted into perpetuity. You have also rubber stamped any group that has ever decided to break away, because groups had already broken away at the time of Nicaea. Under your criteria, any group claiming to be the Church, has a legitimate claim. Probably a better way of looking at the issue, rather than make up our own criteria for what makes up the visible Church, is determine how that visible Church at Nicaea viewed what made up the visible Church. If we do that, then a simple question would be, how many sacraments did that visible Church believe in, at the time of Nicaea? If you come up with a different number, then either the Church at that time had already taught error, which means the Holy Spirit had not guided that Church into all truth, disqualifying her as Christ’s Church, or you are in the wrong.
Did Jesus give to Peter the power to bind and loose?
This would assume that Christ’s One True Church is dependent on the actions or opinions of humans. I reject that notion, not the least of which because the Church is the Communion of Saints, so the Church includes the Church Triumphant, and if you wish, the Church Suffering. I would contend that, despite our differences, Christ’s One True Church can indeed be found where there are saints gathered around word and sacrament.
Then is the visible Church, the Church we can see. Within what we can see, there will be sheep and goats, the invisible Church being the sheep.
His Word, His sacraments are not diminished by our divisions. and this is the basis upon which you and I have to recognize each other as members of His Church. If we can’t, then the chance of unity is impossible until Parousia.
This,again, is the mistake of blaming the Holy Spirit for man’s errors, whether it be the sacraments or anything else. If the EO and western non-Catholics are correct that the pope does not have universal jurisdiction, it isn’t the Holy Spirit’s fault that the Roman see taught this. and it doesn’t mean that the Spirit failed to lead and guide the Church. It simply means that some failed to hear properly His teaching.
More importantly, when in John 16 it says, ** But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. **
He speaks not of a finite time, or just once. The sentence is an ongoing teaching. Catholics have to believe the same in order to teach that doctrine “develops”. If the Spirit only taught at the time of Nicaea, then there is no transubstantiation, no universal jurisdiction. His teaching, His guiding continues today, for all of His people. In fact, it is this continuing guidance that is the basis for Ecumenism.
Yes, and He gave the same power to the 12. The power to bind and loose belongs to the Church. When my priest announces absolution, it is in persona christi.
Jon
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
First I would say that opinions are not the same as actions.
Second I would say that the Church is undeniably dependent on the actions of her Apostles (the Apostolic Succession.) E.G. St. Peter called for a new Apostle to be chosen in the place of Judas. This was before Pentecost, and before the Holy Spirit came upon them all. In fact, God confirmed their selection of Mathias by sending him the Holy Spirit with the rest of the Apostles on Pentecost.
Jesus never brought this up, the whole time before His Ascension. (Or perhaps he instructed Peter privately or otherwise not recorded in Sacred Scripture.)
Please explain why you believe Christ’s One True Church could NOT be dependent on the actions of humans, considering all of the Scriptural testimony to the contrary.
D
Duane1966
Guest
What? Are you telling me the sheep cannot be seen? Then how can they be shepherded?
I have asked you this question before, and you have not answered it. I will ask it again. If Antioch had rejected the Council of Jerusalem, would the Church at Antioch still have been part of the visible Church that Christ founded?
That’s a nice comment Jon. One problem. Where did in any of my comments did I blame the Holy Spirit? To fit your own views, you have read something into my comments that I never made. And then you went off on a tangent about universal jurisdiction, which was never brought up, to keep from answering the question. You said you felt the Church at Nicaea was Christ’s visible Church. How many sacraments did that visible Church say there are? If you come up with a different answer, there can only be two possibilities: Either you are wrong, or that Church was wrong. But if that Church was wrong, then the Holy Spirit did not guide that Church into all truth, disqualifying her as Christ’s Church. This would not be failure on the Holy Spirit’s part, it would just mean that Church at Nicaea was not the true Church.
So you agree that He gave Peter the power to bind and loose, and when Peter uses that power, we know what is loosed on Earth shall also be loosed in Heaven. Agreed?
You’re right. That was poorly worded. What I meant was what is invisible is our ability to know sheep from goats.
I don’t know. What I will say is that I’m not worthy to judge where the Church is not.
When one makes a statement that, “…the Holy Spirit had not guided that Church into all truth, disqualifying her as Christ’s Church, or you are in the wrong.”, that sounds a lot like the Spirit failing to guide, unless I should understand this differently.
Now who’s reading something into comments I never made. I used that as a comparable analogy, that’s all. Otherwise, I think I’ve answered the questions.
No, now you are again blaming the Spirit, unless you are claiming that the Spirit deserts believers because they believe something in error. The Catholic Church certainly doesn’t teach that, AFAIK. If the early Church was wrong about the number of sacraments ( certainly a tangent if we’re worried about tangential topics), that doesn’t mean He wasn’t guiding. It means they weren’t understanding the Spirit - through a mirror dimly, etc.
Yes. Do you agree that the power to bind and loose was later given to the rest, as well?
Sure. It is Christ’s Church. It includes the Church Triumphant. To claim that the actions or opinions of mortals can cause His Church to not survive into perpetuity means that Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection mean nothing unless humans say they do. You might as well say the gates of Hell can and probably will prevail.First I would say that opinions are not the same as actions.
Second I would say that the Church is undeniably dependent on the actions of her Apostles (the Apostolic Succession.) E.G. St. Peter called for a new Apostle to be chosen in the place of Judas. This was before Pentecost, and before the Holy Spirit came upon them all. In fact, God confirmed their selection of Mathias by sending him the Holy Spirit with the rest of the Apostles on Pentecost.
Jesus never brought this up, the whole time before His Ascension. (Or perhaps he instructed Peter privately or otherwise not recorded in Sacred Scripture.)
Please explain why you believe Christ’s One True Church could NOT be dependent on the actions of humans, considering all of the Scriptural testimony to the contrary.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Yes, I fully agree that it includes the Church Triumphant. But still more importantly, it includes our King and our Head Jesus Christ.
However where we part ways, is that you feel that the Church can NOT be dependent on the actions of the Church Militant (the Magisterium, and the Faithful living on earth) because (for some reason) you believe that would equate to the Church surrendering to the Gates of Hell!
But there is a more fundamental reason we disagree here, I think. It is this: In Catholic thinking the Church (meaning the visible Church here on earth) is Divine, and not a human institution at all. BUT, it DOES in fact DEPEND on human actions and works. That is the WHOLE POINT of the Acts of the Apostles.
IOW, Jesus DEPENDED on HIS Apostles to spread the Faith, and explicitly gave them that commission. OF COURSE, they would NEVER be alone, as He promised them. That is why the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost.However, in Protestant thinking, the human visible church on earth is a human institution, not at all the same as the “spiritual church.” This is Protestant thinking, and is a first principle with them.
But in Catholic thinking, all of the New Testament, and indeed all of history since then has PROVED the TRUTH of what I am saying. The human institution of the visible Church on earth is the SAME Church as the Spiritual Church!
Therefore, despite human weakness and failings, not to mention sin, Jesus with the Holy Spirit guides, and protects, here on earth, HIS Bride, The Church.
There is no fear (in Catholic minds) of human error or sin or opinions causing the Catholic Church to suffer shipwreck or destruction, as we have the very promise of Jesus our King and Head, assuring us. - Status