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benedictus2
Guest
And what genus-specie is the foetus?
Will a foetus develop into a cow, cat, blueberry tree, pink salmon?
What genus-specie is the bacteria?
- Status
Will a foetus develop into a cow, cat, blueberry tree, pink salmon?
What genus-specie is the bacteria?
So which is it.
I am uncertain if I should believe the you that was posting earlier, or the you that was posting later.
Your logic here escapes me.
The claim is that development is gauged based upon…
Come now, surely you can more accurately state your case, can’t you?
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YADA
Guest
See bolded aabove
Abortion is legal from conecption to the point of birth - actually abortion as the baby is in the very act of being born- inthe United States already …that my friend is murder, morally reprehensable each adn every time. As Christins we are called to end injustice and work to create a moral social farmework for all of God’s people - turning a blind eye to legalized murder is not acceptable in the same way allowing murder in general, rape and burglary to be de-criminalized. Whether the laws prevent any abortions or not is not the issue - the morality andinjustice of the act is …As for your not saying what you do to end or prevent abortions while condeming others for only one thing they do to end an injustice is hypocriticl … especially when you and the OP are so sure you have the answers …
You and the OP are pretty bold to tell us we should be doing everything that we already are doing [in addition to trying to correct the law of the land] - you have convicted us of being only one dimensional. The OP started off a litany of “better approaches” to ending abortion … EVERY ONE OF WHICH IS BEING DONE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY and has been for the last 40 plus years …
A few yeas back, our deacon told me that some of our respect life members needed to understand that there was more then just abortion aas an issue and more then just over turning Roe V Wade … I asked him if he knew what these individuals did on a regular basis in the area of social justice? He had determined that all if these people were one issue, over turn Roe - nothing else … Well the truth as I informed him was that they worked at a nearby inner city parish every week handing out food from that parishes food pantry [we don’t have one - though our St Vincent de Paul conference is on eof the most active in the state oten times supporting other conferences financially] and they also supported that parishes food pantry with monetary support. One lady gives pedicures and manicures to homeless people, caring for them, washing their feet and showing them compassion and concern. One lady volunteers at a crisis pregnancy center helping mothers find the assistance they need to keep their children or find adoptive parents.
All of these people are the most generous and social justice oriented folks - they just don’t talk about it - they are doing it - living the Gospel… they are exactly what the OP is not - they are knowledgeable about resouces so that they can offer support and advice when they find a person in need - even opening up their homes and wallets …
When some one comes here and says we need clinics [Got them], Homes [done that] and support after the baby os born [its there: rent, furniture, utility money, groceries, car seats, cribs, clothes, toys, medical care, etc - **its all being done] then it needs to be asked … Where have you been? and What are you doing?
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benedictus2
Guest
] then it needs to be asked … Where have you been? and What are you doing?
He thinks he’s discovered the wheel only to be told that we have have gone past that and are already using motorcars, pulley, conveyor belts, etc already.
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YADA
Guest
He thinks he’s discovered the wheel only to be told that we have have gone past that and are already using motorcars, pulley, conveyor belts, etc already.
:yup:
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MoonChild02
Guest
But that’s exactly it! With the proper support systems in place, children wouldn’t get in the way! People tell the lie that babies are not human so as to cut off any connection they might have with the child and make the death seem less, when that just doesn’t cut it. They need to be educated about it, and given the right support. Not just monetarily, but we have to provide baby-sitting, and places for women to go to have these children and be protected. We have to allow for women to not be discriminated against for needing maternity leave. Being a mother doesn’t have to mean being “tied down”. It just means that they need people in their lives who will help them raise the children while they are at work or in school.
I think that since we live in a secular world, are given secular reasons that insist on why abortion should be legal, and are laughed at when we give religious reasons as to why it shouldn’t be legal, then we need to find reasons that will be accepted in this secular world. Otherwise, we’re just going to be laughed off and seen as crazies, and not taken seriously.
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benedictus2
Guest
I do hope that this is just bad phrasing on your part, but “children wouldn’t get in the way??!!”
. Get in the way of what? Of the almighty Me/Myself/ I?Then the tactic should be to expose the lie. “Eliminating the need” as you put it just doesn’t cut it either because that in it self is another lie. There is no NEED for an abortion. There may be a desire for an abortion or a desire for an un-encumbered life but there is no need for an abortion. There is only selfishness.
There again is another lie. This “tied down” mentality. This is what I mean by the I/Me/Myself idolatry. Even with financial help they may still feel “tied down”. A woman leaves her husband because she feels “tied down”. We have got to stop giving credence to such terms. So long as we buy into this thinking we will never be able to shift people’s consciousness.
Support those who need support we must. But this abortion battle has a lot to do with lies rather than financial considerations.
We have to expose the real cause of abortion. It is not economics or whatever else, it is the lie of “being tied down” which goes back once again to the idolatry of I/me/myself.
As I have said in previous post, I know people who have killed and will kill their own child because they feel encumbered by children. When asked why not give them up for adoption, well, that still means going through 9 months of looking terrible and losing their figure.
To dance to the tune of the secular world is precisely that, to dance according to the tune of the secular world. What we want need to fight is the increasing secularization of our world.
But God in his wisdom has actually equipped us with great rational arguments for life. Our reasons transcend religious denomination and crosses the religious secular divide. That is what we need to get out there. Plain common sense.
As I have shown in a previous post, even the secular world admit “foetus” is merely a term that we use to describe a phase in the development of human life.
But this is just the point. We will not be laughed at because we have reason on our side because the Author of Life is on our side, He who is the Source of all reason. We need to stop this Catholic cringe because we have a lot of brilliant minds who can reason better than any in the secular world.
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MoonChild02
Guest
Don’t you get it: THERE IS NO POPULATION PROBLEM!!! It’s all made up!
You were the one who said, “It may not be possible to determine sex so early, when most abortions occur.” That’s why I posted that info.
Main Entry: sa·pi·ent
Pronunciation: \ˈsā-pē-ənt, ˈsa-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin sapient-, sapiens, from present participle of sapere to taste, be wise — more at sage
Date: 15th century
: possessing or expressing great sagacity
synonyms see wise
— sa·pi·ent·ly adverb
No one is really sapient until about age 25, and even then most people still have bouts of being bad at making decisions. No one’s ever truly wise about everything. In saying that no one has the right to live until they gain wisdom, you really are asking for the entirety of the human race to be wiped out.
However, if you mean sentient (which is something that most pro-aborts use as an argument), then the nervous system - the brain, nerves, and nerve receptors - is in place by week 3 and working by week 6 of the pregnancy. Well before the time that most women even know that they’re pregnant.
That link has links to other sites with other articles. It’s a reference point. Also, those are all of the survivors that have come forward. There are hundreds more out there, but they haven’t chosen to lift their voices.
If you really have a problem with the links from realchoice, here are a couple other places you can get those stories from:
circleofprayer.com/abortion-survival-testimonies.html
priestsforlife.org/testimony/survivors.html
Until abortion is made illegal, forced abortions will be the norm. Even governments practice forced abortion, or have you not heard of China or North Korea?
And those 80%? They were denied that information FROM THE ABORTION PROVIDERS, THEMSELVES!!! A doctor should disclose ALL information before proceeding with a life threatening surgery! Instead, they told them that it was totally harmless, and that they were making the right decision.
That 65% were not just from those women’s male partners, but from the abortionists, as well. Abortion doctors have been well known to have held women to the table after those women said that they didn’t want to go through with the procedure.
Not all have this many complications, and not one procedure has caused even near the amount of carnage abortion has, and that’s just from the point of view of the women! Factor in the 53 million deaths of unborn babies, and that is some ***major ***carnage!
Oh, and before you say that you won’t take me seriously for saying “babies”, remember that the word “fetus” is scientific semantics. It’s like refusing to refer to homo sapiens as human beings.
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MoonChild02
Guest
I do hope that this is just bad phrasing on your part, but “children wouldn’t get in the way??!!”
There again is another lie. This “tied down” mentality. This is what I mean by the I/Me/Myself idolatry. Even with financial help they may still feel “tied down”. A woman leaves her husband because she feels “tied down”. We have got to stop giving credence to such terms. So long as we buy into this thinking we will never be able to shift people’s consciousness.
I was referring to what you said those girls in your office said, the argument most pro-abort women make. I agree that it isn’t a real “need”, only that they think that there’s a need, but the cause of the illness still has to be treated in order for the disease to go away.
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benedictus2
Guest
And the baby slowly dying by dismemberment agrees :" You bet ya".
Abortion : the only medical procedure that 100% without fail results in death.
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YADA
Guest
You miss the point, all of the things mentioned are available even babysitting … its the attitude that legalized abortion lends the debate that keeps the negatives like being ‘tied down’ or that chidren ‘get in the way’ alive in the minds and herts of people …
Lets put it this way … the “Endangered Species Act” in an by its self does not save any snail darter or california condor from extinction … What the legislation did was give endangered species a right to exist, legal standing to seek redress when that right was not respected and consequences for those who ignored their rights all of this is granted in the law … thus people who in and of themselves who may not have had a thought about snail darters one way or the other were compelled to consider the snaill darter in accord with the law … Protection of endangered species forced the poppulation to modify how it thought and acted …
Thus if unborn babies remain un-protected the attidudes that see them as ‘inconvenient’ will not change … they will forever be subject to slaughter by those who view them as sub-human for whatever whim of the moment … that is the ‘culture of death’ at its very core
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benedictus2
Guest
Yes, yes, yes!
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ryecroft
Guest
Joe, I do agree with almost all of your post, but I don’t want to get into the health care reform as that will change this thread into a debate. Suffice to say, I seriuosly doubt with Scott taking over for Kennedy, they won’t have the 60 votes any longer so it may be a moot point. I did want to say that while people may get health care, those that don’t go by what Obama wants will be fined. I will be fined because I don’t want to participate in health care -like we don’t already give 38% of what we make in taxes and then pay more when we buy things but I will shut up there before I go off.IF there are so many pro-life clinics, then why are they not advertised? I have never heard of one of them listed in the replies to my posting. People cannot use their services if they do not know they exist. I watch EWTN; I have never heard anyone speak of the availability of pro-life clinics. Why do they not post an 800 number where viewers can call in and find available services in their area? As for paying for other people’s abortions in the health care bill, nobody asked me if I wanted my taxes to pay for the Iraq war. That’s American politics; it’s always been that way and will never change. Millions of Americans need health care; the reform may not pass Congress if any further changes are made. Would you deny millions of Americans health care for this reason? Would you cut off our noses to spite our faces? You do not change morals by legislating them. You change morals by exposing those in need to the love of Jesus AND by giving them, in His name, the bread they need to live. Joe
I do agree with what you said in the first post here. But I also believe that many on here seem to want for a law to be passed saying “no abortions - no exceptions…” people especially politicians will not be likely to go for something that says no way 100% of the time - there has to be exceptions made for at the very least when a mother’s life is in danger- I also agree with Joe in that I don’t want to see women having back alley abortions or abortions by incompetents and die from them. Just because abortions wouldn’t be available for everyone, the rich will be able to have access -and honestly, I don’t want to see women have the abortion they feel they must (and go get it in a compromised situation)- and then die and never have a possiblity for forgiveness. At least when they are fairly safe, they will have a chance to live in most cases and eventually in some cases wind up believing what they did was wrong and ask forgiveness. I also have to wonder, if abortion were “outlawed” for all but serious medical situations with the more, then what would come next - would it be that the Catholic Church then wants to try to get rid of artificial contraception? The only reason I bring this up is because I have heard about this possibility.
While there are some crisis pregnancy centers, I mut agree that there need to be more. Wouldn’t it help much more if near every planned pregnancy center, there was a crisis pregnancy center? And after reading something in OSV paper about reasons why the Catholic Church doesn’t sell some or make (more in some cases) money from all of these “priceless” items which are rarely ever seen in the Vatican. It mentioned that the Vatican considers itself the “caretaker” of these works - but wouldn’t it be better to make money from these object - no unlike what museums do with art pieces which are popular or very rare? It does make me wonder if the Church was able to use the money from even just “lending” certain object out to help with pregnancy centers and the poor among other possibilities. It makes me think that perhaps they find some of their “masterpieces” worth more than some of the “masterpieces” which God creates and who need help.
God Bless
Rye
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YADA
Guest
And wouldn’t it be better if you sold your ‘stuff’, lived on less of your wealth and donated it to the local crisis pregnancy center along with your time? Wouldn’t it be better if you opened your home to someone in need? …
Generally - I find that those who often speak of the “Wealth of the Church” and what the Church ahould do with it are often less then generous with their personal wealth and time - not saying that is you; as there are always exceptions.
And for your desire to see a crisis pregnancy center near every aboriotn clinic, well there are many such … also every group of people who pray outside of abortion clinics is armed with information on resources to help mothers, and they regularly offer even their own resources to help out … I wrote about one lady’s offer to help get a couple rent assistance so they would not abort their 4th child due to lack of finances … and that child has been saved and the family is now in touvh with organizations to help …
The church [as in the organization] cannot be every where at all times except through you adn me - we are the Church - we are the wealth - we are the resources - we are the ones Jesus called to be Good Samaritan’s to see those in need as our neighbor … Jesus never said go demand assistance form Ceazar, delegate your Christian commision to the State or look to some other source of wealth other then your own …
… Get up, get out and work to save babies, you must do it or it won’t be done …
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benedictus2
Guest
Very well put! I find that those who complain about what the Church is doing here and there are the ones who hardly give to charity either.
But acually this is not a contradictory at all. It makes it easier not to give if we can say “see the Church does not do anything”. It’s a plausible excuse for not giving.
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ryecroft
Guest
Just because (and I know you said that this wasn’t necessarily me) - there are some of us who don’t go around boasting of what we have done does not mean that we have not done things to help. And we do give to charity. What gauls me about the Church’s giving is when I see things such as what we recently read/saw about the Bishop’s appeal and where a large amount of money went. And quite frankly, if the church is going to say as Christ said and I paraphrase - Go out and sell everything you have and follow me - then they need to practice what they preach. What good are all of those treasures doing locked up where no one has access to them. I’m not even saying to use them all - just do something to make money with some of them. It wouldn’t be difficult. And with all the financial woes that the Catican has purported to be having, especially after the whole sex abuse pay out situation, it would seem they would want to try to bring more money in. They even admitted in the late 80’s that due to the increased buraucracy after Vatican II, the amount the Vatican spent because of this added bureaucracy doubled and they had to begin taking money from Peter’s Pence and some other donationw which were to go to help the poor and pay for the operating costs of this larger buraucracy. And I really believe that if many of those making up the Church and even some of those that are not members of the Church saw the Vatican selling off things to help, it might inspire them to do more themselves.And wouldn’t it be better if you sold your ‘stuff’, lived on less of your wealth and donated it to the local crisis pregnancy center along with your time? Wouldn’t it be better if you opened your home to someone in need? …
Generally - I find that those who often speak of the “Wealth of the Church” and what the Church ahould do with it are often less then generous with their personal wealth and time - not saying that is you; as there are always exceptions.
And for your desire to see a crisis pregnancy center near every aboriotn clinic, well there are many such … also every group of people who pray outside of abortion clinics is armed with information on resources to help mothers, and they regularly offer even their own resources to help out … I wrote about one lady’s offer to help get a couple rent assistance so they would not abort their 4th child due to lack of finances … and that child has been saved and the family is now in touvh with organizations to help …
The church [as in the organization] cannot be every where at all times except through you adn me - we are the Church - we are the wealth - we are the resources - we are the ones Jesus called to be Good Samaritan’s to see those in need as our neighbor … Jesus never said go demand assistance form Ceazar, delegate your Christian commision to the State or look to some other source of wealth other then your own …
God Bless
Rye
p.s. info was found in Fortune Magazine
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YADA
Guest
Really, Rye, you jus thnk people need to see “the Church” doing something, huh, thats all? … Do you have any idea what the “Church” does? … Do you know Rye that the Church [as in charities presided over by the Vatican administration] spent about 3% on administrative costs thus getting $0.97 of every dollar to the cause for which it was spent? Far greater then most “charities” some of which get only about $0.68 of every dollar donated to the real purpose spending 40%+ in salaries, ovrhead and fundraising. I even heard that some only get about $0.10 of every dollar collected to the cause - like those phone call - a - thon groups… You can check out charities here: charitynavigator.org/
We made a decision long ago to donate only to those charities that get over 90% of he donations to the cause … and that is why almost all f our charitable donations go to Catholic sponsored charities …
FYI, for every $$ sent to Washington that gets filtered back to help people [welfare, etc] in th states - well they fall right in with the worst groups - perhaps 60 - 70% so when you want to combat hunger or provide assistance to the poor - sending money to Washington is the least effective
Another FYI: in Haiti, the only really effective charity through the years has been the Catholic Church
You can read more about the Church’s activities here:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/corunum/corunum_en/iniziative_en/diakonia_en.html
and here:
catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=27153
I still say that WE are the CHURCH … You want the Church to do more, then DO MORE, get your friends and family to do more … because the Church is us …
And I do not think that selling off priceless art and antiquities [held in trust] is necessary, would be effective nor is it the proper way to fund assistance to the poor …
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rwillenborg
Guest
And quite frankly, if the church is going to say as Christ said and I paraphrase - Go out and sell everything you have and follow me - then they need to practice what they preach. What good are all of those treasures doing locked up where no one has access to them. I’m not even saying to use them all - just do something to make money with some of them. It wouldn’t be difficult.
The Vatican’s treasures are locked up where no one can see them? Are you joking? Of course you can see them. The museum is open from 9 to 6 pm daily.
Can’t fly all the way to Italy? Well, neither can I.Not to worry. They send out exhibits to travel, too. Just wait for one to come to your local art institute.
You know why Benedict doesn’t sell the Vatican’s pricelss assets? Because they aren’t his to sell. They don’t belong to him. They don’t belong to the bishops, or the clergy. They belong to US. The people. not just Catholics, but ALL OF HUMANITY. The Vatican’s collection shows some of THE most AMAZING expressions of man’s love for God. That has worth, worth that money can’t buy. And it doesn’t belong to one person. It belongs to ALL of us. Pope John Paul, and other popes, too, have used the word ‘steward’ to describe the Vatican’s role with their art. These men do not consider themselves owners. these are not their personal objects to sell off as they choose. They simply have a responsibility to maintain them.
The Vatican museum is consistently listed among THE best museums IN THE WORLD every year. Should they sell off their pieces? So that they could be put into private collections, at which time they would ACTUALLY be locked away? I would give an emphatic NO.
The sad truth is that the poor will always be with us. We most work TIRELESSLY and ENDLESSLY to do everything we can to alleviate human suffering. But, I propose that ALL of us would be that much poorer if the Vatican’s collection of Christian history were to be broken up and sold to private collections and other museums.
I will draw an analogy. The US is currently experiencing a financial crisis. To fix our defecit, they could sell off some things. Like the Declaration of Independence. The original Declaration is now exhibited in the Rotunda for the Charters of Freedom in Washington, DC.It’s just a piece of paper, right. We could sell that. There are many wealthy individuals who collect historical documents. It would fetch MILLIONS. Probably hundreds of millions. Honestly, it’s worth is inestimable. Why don’t we? Why don’t we sell off the assets in the Smithsonian while we’re at it? Why has NO ONE suggested that the United States sell of its history and artifacts and art bit by bit? Why? Have you written the president and suggest he take up residence elsewhere so that the White House could be sold on the open market? Have you written your congressperson urging them to have the contents of the Smithsonian sold to solve our financial crisis?
I will tell you why. Because it’s not worth it. Because money gets spent, but THIS, this is OUR STORY. And, likewise, the Vatican’s art and items is the story of man’s expression of the divine. Please, please, don’t ask that it be sold for a bit of money.
Thanks for listening.
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Joe:
Please read the following from a LIBERAL Agnostic - He’s NOT equating those who want to outlaw the murder of the innocent with the Taliban!
The Liberal Case AGAINST Abortion
from the Writings of Vasu Murti
In one anti-abortion pamphlet, Dr. Jean Garton states that religion did not discover when human life begins, the biologists did. The fact that religious people may oppose abortion does not make abortion a “religious” issue any more than the fact that religious people may oppose drunk driving makes drunk driving a “religious” issue. In her book, Who Broke the Baby?, Dr. Garton compares discrimination against the human unborn to other forms of discrimination:
“By placing unborn human beings outside the protection of the law, it became possible to deny them basic rights. This is not the first time in our history that we have made a distinction between the biological category of living human beings and the legal concept of ‘person.’ At one time in our history American Indians were not legal persons because we did not grant them the protection of our Constitution. Thus we were able to take by force anything which belonged to them.
“Usually what we wanted was their land, so we denied them the right to property. Next in our national list of non-persons were black slaves, declared to be chattel and property of their masters as a result of the Dred Scott decision of 1857…In 1973, another group of human beings was added to the non-person list: the unborn.”
all-creatures.org/murti/pub-thelib-01.html
Abortion isn’t a religious issue, and we’re not “Imposing Morality”, unless you want to state that laws prohibiting Murder, Robbery, Kidnapping & Extortion are “Imposing Morality”. We’re stating with the SCIENTISTS that the fetus is a human being and worthy of the same protections as you or I.
Continued in the Next Article
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
- Status