A New Approach to Pro-Life

[Schluns]

If there is anyone else in the Venice Diocese who would like the resources that I sent Joe, please PM me and I will forward them to you.

 

[vz71]

just to weigh in an opinion here…
The title “A New Approach to Pro-Life” is wrong. It is not new, nor is it pro-life.
It is simply a re-hash of acceptance of an intrinsic evil.

The concept that we should abandon legislation outlawing abortion on the ground that we should be doing other things is really an acceptance of evil.

No one has ever said we should do only one thing or the other, in fact the majority of pro-life do many things. They seek to outlaw abortion as well as provide alternatives and counseling.
Removing the outlawing of aborion from the repertoire simply limits the avenues available to the pro-life advocates. Why would someone want to limit these avenues?

The fundamentalist born again christians would gladly destroy our constitutional democracy and replace it with the assemblies of god church.

In times past, the various protestant churches were much stronger in politics then they are today. Yet this that you speak of was never an issue. What evidence do you have to back this assertion?

I am completely against any religion participating in politics or petitioning the government to institute its moral code.

Are you also against the laws presently on the books against rape, murder, kidnapping, theft, etc.? These are all instances of a moral code being written into law.

The new health care law will not increase or decrease abortion.

This side of passage, there is no way to tell this with any certainty. But we do know for certain it will increase the availability of abortion…and history tells us that when the availability goes up, so do the abortions.

Any woman who wants an abortion will find a way to get one.

She may, but I do not have to be the one that provides the means. And neither do you.

I ask, how much will any of you tolerate to end abortion? Will you seek to deny health care to millions of children, already born, to prove your point? They have rights too, just as the unborn do.

Health care reform that denies life to people is not health care reform.
It is state sanctioned death.

Millions of families need health care; millions of parents cannot take their children to doctors when they need to.

I question your statistics here. Please provide some kind of source as I find this figure of ‘millions’ to be suspect.

A mass H1N1 pandemic is predicted this year or next;

And last year to. Still has not come.
BUT…it did offer us some insights into government run healthcare.
Did you notice what happened to the government controlled vaccines?
First there were not enough, then there was enough, but only the select few were allowed to have it. Then there was too much and it and they ended up tossing it out.
Don’t you think state run health-care will be the same? The vaccine debacle is just one example among many others available to indicate what happens when government steps in.

a new antibiotic- resistant strain of TB was discovered in my home state just the other day. If these tragedies occur, how are American families to prevent millions of people and children from dying, just as occurred in the early 20th century when pneumonia killed literally millions of Americans? People need health care now.

But not healthcare that costs the lives of the unborn.

Opposing the bill will not stop abortion; but it may jeopardize the lives of millions of Americans in the year to come.

Or it may not. Playing to some future disaster scenario is not rational.
Every few years the government warns of some pending disaster that never materializes. Remember the pending ice age? How about the population bomb? Global Warming? Ozone depletion? Skin Cancer? H1N1?
You can call me jaded, but I prefer to think of it as healthy skepticism.

There is much more involved here than just abortion. Should this happen, should such a holocaust occur because people could not get health care, could you face God and defend your decision to block a bill that would prevent all of this?

Yes, I could. Could you face God having lent support to murder of the innocent unborn?

I would rather see a mass effort, campaign if you will, on the part of my church to head in this direction; banning abortion will not stop it.

No one has ever claimed it would. But it is just plain stupid to throw out this tactic.
Doing so is simply acceptance of the evil.

The U.S. Supreme Court rarely overturns one of its decisions.

They have in the past. Why wouldn’t they now.
Of course, why are you limiting yourself to RVW?

How do you justify denying care to millions of Americans when the action you seek from the government will not have any effect on abortion whatsoever? Joe

Prove that it will have no effect.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Statistically we see that in countries where abortion is illegal, it happens less. Yes, there may be scary thing going on in alleys, but that’s a small number compared to all the thousands of licit abortions that occur in the US every day.

 

[rwillenborg]

Dear rwillenborg: That sounds fantastic, just like what I’ve envisioned. Places like you’ve described have an infinitely greater chance of stopping abortion than a governmental ban. I wish more Catholics would understand this and jump on the bandwagon. This is the kind of thing Jesus would have done. He would never have asked the government to solve a moral issue. Joe

The only problem is that the government ALREADY legislates morality, and it will continue to do so. The real question, then, is who’s morality are our laws based on?

 

[rwillenborg]

Statistically we see that in countries where abortion is illegal, it happens less. Yes, there may be scary thing going on in alleys, but that’s a small number compared to all the thousands of licit abortions that occur in the US every day.

I remember reading a study commissioned by the UN on this particular matter and what I found most interesting is that the legality of abortion made NO impact WHATSOEVER on the overall maternal mortality rates in a country.
In other words, the idea that tens of thousands of women would turn to dangerous procedures to have abortions is, quite simply, false.
It was false when it was presented to the american public initially and it continues to be false. Go figure.

 

[fix]

Dear rwillenborg: That sounds fantastic, just like what I’ve envisioned. Places like you’ve described have an infinitely greater chance of stopping abortion than a governmental ban. I wish more Catholics would understand this and jump on the bandwagon. This is the kind of thing Jesus would have done. He would never have asked the government to solve a moral issue. Joe

Jesus is the authority behind His Church and the Church teaches that legalized abortion must be opposed by Catholics.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

How do you balance out this one? How do you justify denying care to millions of Americans when the action you seek from the government will not have any effect on abortion whatsoever?

We are not saying “ban abortion or no healthcare”. We are saying don’t pay for abortion. Read Romans 3, it’s clear we can’t commit an evil so good may happen, which is why this healthcare bill is immoral.

 

[YADA]

Dear JR,

You have never addressed your lack of knowledge of existing assistance for those in need … You have a sad story of your own … but lack any knowledge of Church resources and outrach … this is a disconnect …

Other problems with your post:

Devout Catholic … who does not hold all that tye Church teaches

Devout Catholic … who knows practically nothing about Church run Charities

Pro-Life … knows nothing about the Pro-Life movement and activities beyond opposition to legalized abortion.

Desire to start a clinic … no past support or action in existing out reach opportunities.

You have a plan [even though to this point it seems you have been inactive]… and you plan is obviously different/better/more effective then what “others” have been doing.

You want to put your resources [is this a new idea for you?] … but the Chruch has infinately more ‘resources’ [and obviously you feel they do not use those resources for those in need - which is a lie by the way] …

I ask you again … what have you done to assist a pregnant woman [or family] in need in the last 10 years? Have you purchased diapers for them? Have you contributed to the operating costs of a Home for Unwed Mothers? Have you opened your home to one? Have you worked to end poverty - donating to homeless shelters, coaching those who lack basic skills in shopping or housekeeping? Do you volunteer time at a Food Pantry? Have you volunteered at an abortion recovery retreat - helping someone heal from the hurt and harm having an abortion caused them in their life?

Because every Pro-Life person I know that prays outside of a Planned Parenthood Clinic does some or all of the above in addition to praying. It is a myth that Pro-Lifers care only for the baby in the womb and nothing for the woman or child after it is born …

And I ask you this … if abortion remains legal [ie enjoys the Societal and Governmental stamp of approval as an acceptable] option in the care of the unborn child - Why is it said we want abortion to be rare? If it is a morally acceptable 'Choice" then there is no reason for it to ever be rare or eliminated - ever …

And if it is leglized murder [and it is] then what prevents our society to accept the murder some other vulnerable group? … children to the age of two? … those over ninety? … those who are paralized? … those with HIV/Aids? …

 

[iluvburpees]

Banning abortion will not stop abortion.

Hmmm…I suppose the ban on “normal” murders hasn’t helped reduce them either.

The wealthy will go to other countries to have it done; those who cannot afford this, will return to underground abortion clinics or self-abort; it’s been going on for centuries and will continue. I do NOT want to see women going underground.

Guess what, I don’t give a **** if these sick women are so intent on brutally murdering their own flesh and blood that they use dangerous means to do so. Perhaps it would give them a share of what their poor babies suffer on account of their perverted minds. After all, mothers should do things with their children, right? :banghead:

We Americans NEED health care reform; many of us cannot afford to take our children to the doctors office; I have my children on Medicaid. I do work, but am not provided health insurance. I cannot see a doctor when I need one, but thank God at least my children can. Do not derail health care reform in a hypocritical and futile attempt to stop abortion.

I’ll be interested to see what God says at the Last Judgment about our “hypocritical” and “futile” anti-abortion actions. He’ll be very upset with those of us who put our heart and soul into trying to outlaw an intrinsically evil act. He won’t like the fact that we opposed a so-called “health care” bill that is not only communistic, but which also demands that we pay for the murder of His children. He won’t be happy with us, will He, Joe? But we all know that He’ll praise you to no end for urging us to support and finance the means of murdering his children, don’t we?

Incredible how any “Catholic” can support this…it makes me sick. How you can be against “normal” murder, yet support abortion which is equal to any other murder - check that, it’s far more evil than “normal” murders since it gives these human beings no chance of seeing God. So how in your right mind can you not only support banning abortion, but support a bill that will require you to pay for abortions?

Money needs to be spent on people who need help; let’s see some real pro-life activity, not mere words.

Yes everybody, let’s do some real pro-life activity, starting with supporting the pro-death “health-care” bill…

 

[Christopher68]

Guess what, I don’t give a **** if these sick women are so intent on brutally murdering their own flesh and blood that they use dangerous means to do so.

The above comment is one of the most disgusting statements I’ve had the displeasure of reading on this forum.

A woman in that situation needs prayer and enlightenment - not your scorn.

 

[benedictus2]

The above comment is one of the most disgusting statements I’ve had the displeasure of reading on this forum.

A woman in that situation needs prayer and enlightenment - not your scorn.

I do agree that Iluvburpees said it really badly. But the thing is he is right. A ban on abortion is necessary. The law is a great educator. Abortion has not decreased but has in fact increased with the the law that allows you to kill your baby. People now have the perception that murdering your own child is somehow permissible because the law says so. This is the kind of rationale I get from my officemates - “but it’s legal”.

So the OP is not really addressing the issue. The issue at the heart of abortion is selfishness. Mother Theresa put it so well… to kill your baby that you may leave as you wish.

That is what needs to be addressed. Addressing the economics will not help because it is not about economics.

But I do agree that the program outlined in the OP will be a great help. But this is not an “or” to the banning but an “and”.

 

[VonnieSmith]

Dear Schluns, thanks much for the information. I am in the Ft. Myers / Cape Coral Diocese. Do you have any contacts there? If so, please send them to my email at:
jrgiancola@aol.com . Please identify yourself in the subject, as I don’t open email unless I know the sender.

Also, anyone here who wants to know me better can send me a friend invite on Facebook. I’m under Joseph Giancola, Cape Coral, Florida.

Reply to your question about any contacts:
In Fort Myers, Florida…we have multiple locations to help women facing an unplanned pregnancy with many areas of assistance. There is Lee Women’s Center on McGregor Blvd. that does Free Pregnancy Tests, education, counseling and gives the mother maternity clothes, crib, car seat, baby clothes, diapers, and support. There is also Sneak Preview 4D Ultrasound on Metro Parkway that does FREE 4d Ultrasounds for any abortion minded women and has an Adoption List of parents with successful past adoption choices. There is also Life-Line Family Center in Cape Coral that takes the pregnant mother into the home and lets the mother live there until the baby is 2 years old and the mother has finished her high school and college or vocational education. All of these ministries have been operating for many years and have helped thousands of women.

 

[Seatuck]

We need to do both. We need to become a country that recognizes and protects life through legislation and we need to provide the care for crisis pregnancies. The church already provides the care . Can’t for the life of me understand why the OP doesn’t see this.
You also need to get your head out of the sand. I know for a fact that Crisis Pregnancy groups have been denied advertisement space since it is not politically correct. They were denied billboard and ad space while Planned Parenthood was allowed. The fight is ongoing. There needs to be a political attitude change to fix this problem.

BTW EWTN is a private group. They aren’t the Church. I have seen them do stories time after time on individual Pro- Life groups. People just need to be paying attention. We are fortunate to have a local Catholic channel where I live. Ads for Birthright and the Sisters For Life etc are on all the time.

We need to do both.

 

[Christopher68]

I do agree that Iluvburpees said it really badly. But the thing is he is right. A ban on abortion is necessary. The law is a great educator. Abortion has not decreased but has in fact increased with the the law that allows you to kill your baby. People now have the perception that murdering your own child is somehow permissible because the law says so. This is the kind of rationale I get from my officemates - “but it’s legal”.

So the OP is not really addressing the issue. The issue at the heart of abortion is selfishness. Mother Theresa put it so well… to kill your baby that you may leave as you wish.

That is what needs to be addressed. Addressing the economics will not help because it is not about economics.

But I do agree that the program outlined in the OP will be a great help. But this is not an “or” to the banning but an “and”.

My comment was regarding a specific sentence that was written (which I had highlighted accordingly), not the myriad other things you mention above.

The sentence I highlighted was one of the most callous statements I have ever read from someone who professes to be pro life. Perhaps the writer let the emotional nature of the issue get the better of them, but what was written was truly repugnant.

 

[iluvburpees]

The above comment is one of the most disgusting statements I’ve had the displeasure of reading on this forum.

A woman in that situation needs prayer and enlightenment - not your scorn.

Of course she needs prayer and enlightenment, as do all murderers…but no sane woman can pretend she doesn’t know it’s murder, especially when it is “illegal” according to the state.

I’m pretty positive you’d consider a guy who murders his children to be sick, as well as the man who rapes girls under the age of 10. So why isn’t a woman sick if she murders her own baby/babies?

 

[Christopher68]

Of course she needs prayer and enlightenment, as do all murderers…but no sane woman can pretend she doesn’t know it’s murder, especially when it is “illegal” according to the state.

I’m pretty positive you’d consider a guy who murders his children to be sick, as well as the man who rapes girls under the age of 10. So why isn’t a woman sick if she murders her own baby/babies?

The question you ask in your last sentence is not what I was referencing above. I was referencing your comment that you “don’t give a ****” about a woman in that situation.

Regardless of their mental state, is that really how you feel about one of God’s creations?

 

[vz71]

I’m pretty positive you’d consider a guy who murders his children to be sick, as well as the man who rapes girls under the age of 10. So why isn’t a woman sick if she murders her own baby/babies?

This is why we need so much to make aborrtion illegal.

Because the state permits it by law, there is a perception that it is OK.

I have heard of many an instance where the abortion takes place and the mother does not realize how wrong it is or what exactly was being done until after the fact.
All because the law permits it.

The law says it is OK, and a desperate woman that finds herself pregnant has an option, and will not look any deeper. She is afraid, and doesn’t want to know any more then what is legal.
Does not looking any further then the legal options make her sick?
Or does it simply make her a desperate and afraid woman?

As long as the law permits the action, it is entirely plausible that she simply did not have any idea what she was doing.

 

[iluvburpees]

This is why we need so much to make aborrtion illegal.

Because the state permits it by law, there is a perception that it is OK.

I have heard of many an instance where the abortion takes place and the mother does not realize how wrong it is or what exactly was being done until after the fact.
All because the law permits it.

The law says it is OK, and a desperate woman that finds herself pregnant has an option, and will not look any deeper. She is afraid, and doesn’t want to know any more then what is legal.
Does not looking any further then the legal options make her sick?
Or does it simply make her a desperate and afraid woman?

As long as the law permits the action, it is entirely plausible that she simply did not have any idea what she was doing.

I have read some cases where women didn’t know what they were really doing at first, and then after learning the truth were upset for life. I don’t deny that there might be rare cases where a woman having an abortion might not realize what she is doing, but for the majority of cases, they know exactly what they’re doing. Usually they’re young and want to freely have sensuality without “worrying about” babies. Hence, at least most of these women are sick, and making abortion illegal will help reduce any possible confusions among some women.

In any case, I suppose I didn’t word it right when I said I “don’t give a cr*p” about them…I do, yet that doesn’t mean that they aren’t horrible murderers even if I pray for them. If they are so obsessed with the idea of “the state says it’s legal, therefore it’s morally okay,” then they should be equally obsessed with the idea of “the state says it’s illegal, therefore it’s morally not okay.”

 

[elts1956]

Banning abortion simply will not stop it Did Prohibition put an end to alcohol? It’s an easy way out, a bandaid rather than a cure. When all Christians, Catholics included, love each other the way Jesus did, there will be no more killing of any kind. Jesus is the answer; not politics.

Are the ten commandments politics, or moral law? There must be laws, or humans have the tendency to run amok and make their own rules. When there is a separation between God and man, man as being created in the image of God, no longer exists.

 

[benedictus2]

Banning abortion simply will not stop it Did Prohibition put an end to alcohol?

Neither did outlawing murder, theft, bigamy. So what is exactly your point That maybe it was pointless to outlaw these?

It’s an easy way out, a bandaid rather than a cure. When all Christians, Catholics included, love each other the way Jesus did, there will be no more killing of any kind. Jesus is the answer; not politics.

The thing with civil law, is that it is supposed to reflect natural and supernatural laws.
And saying this nice feelings about loving each other and all that is well and good but the cold hard facts remain that without laws, every one is out for themselves. That is the state of our fallen nature. Laws are not opposed to love. Laws are precisely there to express our love. And Love must be grounded on truth because real love is not schmaltz.

Legalization of abortion has led to more not less abortion because laws are great educators. Once something is legal, it somehow is mistakenly deemed moral as well.