A New Approach to Pro-Life

[vz71]

Who has the blinders on here? Do you honestly think you can stop sin?

No, but we can certainly make it more difficult to sin.

 

[Jermosh]

I never said I could. Only Christ can do that. But you have completely taken that out of the equation so have actually taken Christ out of the equation as well.

I was just correcting you because you were attributing the cause of abortion to something else. The devil’s tactic of dimming the lights you know. Take the focus away from the real cause (sin) and come up with something like economics the way you have done.

So yes, take your blinders off. Stop buying into the devil’s rationale.

Actually accepting a reality and attempting to make the best of a already evil situation is not having a blinders on, its actually the opposite of it. Sin is an action based on intent, circumstance, and conscience, by only tackling the issue with reaction instead of proaction what do you honestly expect to fix?
I fail to see the logic in attempting to knock over a table, when you can prevent the table from being made by destroying the legs 1st.

 

[Jermosh]

Isn’t that the whole point of Christ’s message? “Go and sin no more”. Now who said that???

He said it to Christians, are we back to forcing people to be Christians again?

 

[Jermosh]

So, should we do away with laws regarding spouse/child abuse? What about rape? Infanticide? How about bank robbery?, Car theft? Larceny of all kinds? Driving while intoxicated? Manufacture, Distribution and / or Possesion of Cocaine, Marijuana, Oxycotin, Meth?..

Actually these can be results of certain puritan laws that we have in place already.

 

[fix]

Abortion has been with humanity since the beginning of man, laws will not remove it. The only way to remove abortion is by recognising the need as real and fill the need. Once a woman does not need to have an abortion, she wont. Proactivity is the key here.

The law is a teacher. Teach people that abortion is licit and they will do it. It is not the only factor, but it is fundamental to the issue. To deny that is to deny reality.

 

[fix]

He said it to Christians, are we back to forcing people to be Christians again?

Protecting innocent is not forcing anyone to be Christian.

 

[st_lucy]

He said it to Christians, are we back to forcing people to be Christians again?

Okay.

We are talking about trying to convince someone NOT to KILL someone else.

I would think someone would think about the fact that abortion ALWAYS kills someone. Shouldn’t it be everyone’s duties to prevent that from happening? Or are you okay with “forcing people” to die hideous deaths?

 

[Jermosh]

Okay.

We are talking about trying to convince someone NOT to KILL someone else.

I would think someone would think about the fact that abortion ALWAYS kills someone. Shouldn’t it be everyone’s duties to prevent that from happening? Or are you okay with “forcing people” to die hideous deaths?

I was stating to the comment on Christ speaking to persons who believe in Him. Hence my question on should we use Christs words to force others under our will?

This is the crutch of the issue that many in the Pro-Life movement seem to forget or not understand. Of course we can state that abortion is killing a human life in scientific and medical facts, there is not a lot you can do to argue against that. But our soceity has gone beyond that and even those in the scientific and medical community do not equate a human life with human person, some do of course but they are the minority anymore. Hence its not murder or even homocide according to our laws.

So how do you force someone to believe that is a human being at conception? Do you force it by laws? How has that been working lately? PP is bigger then ever, abortion rates are still large.

 

[elts1956]

He said it to Christians, are we back to forcing people to be Christians again?

Uh, He said it to Jews.

So what would you prefer, Islam, Budhist, Hindu? Even so, each of those has aspects of Christianity contained in them. Or no religion? Clarify please.

And have all the Christians left???

 

[Jermosh]

So what would you prefer, Islam, Budhist, Hindu? Even so, each of those has aspects of Christianity contained in them. Or no religion? Clarify please.

Those will not work well either. The bible is crystal clear that we can force others to believe in Christ, even though some in history have tried and ended in evil.

 

[elts1956]

He said it to Christians, are we back to forcing people to be Christians again?

I was stating to the comment on Christ speaking to persons who believe in Him. Hence my question on should we use Christs words to force others under our will?

This is the crutch of the issue that many in the Pro-Life movement seem to forget or not understand. Of course we can state that abortion is killing a human life in scientific and medical facts, there is not a lot you can do to argue against that. But our soceity has gone beyond that and even those in the scientific and medical community do not equate a human life with human person, some do of course but they are the minority anymore. Hence its not murder or even homocide according to our laws.

So how do you force someone to believe that is a human being at conception? Do you force it by laws? How has that been working lately? PP is bigger then ever, abortion rates are still large.

“even those in the scientific and medical community do not equate a human life with human person, some do of course but they are the minority anymore” Sources please.

A TRUTH IS STILL A TRUTH EVEN IF NO ONE BELIEVES IT
A LIE IS STILL A LIE EVEN IF EVERYONE BELIEVES IT

 

[elts1956]

Those will not work well either. The bible is crystal clear that we can force others to believe in Christ, even though some in history have tried and ended in evil.

We cannot “force” anyone to truly accept the Christian religion. You say you are Catholic, so what is your point?

You still haven’t given your sources or statistics regarding the medical professions belief in abortion.

 

[benedictus2]

Actually accepting a reality and attempting to make the best of a already evil situation is not having a blinders on, its actually the opposite of it.

Actually no for this is not just a case of making the most of a bad situation. Abortion is not merely a bad situation. Abortion is an evil where the root is Sin not economic condition. As I have mentioned above, in this day and age where we are economically well off, abortion is on the rise.

I am not saying that we should not help those who need help, but first and foremost an act must be exposed for what it is OUTRIGHT EVIL.

By saying / implying that somehow the cause of abortion is financial / economic is to sanitize its particularly evil nature. So I maintain, that is playing into the devil’s own rationale.

Sin is an action based on intent, circumstance, and conscience,

You are making sin to be subjective. Morality is not subjective. Sin is an objective truth and no amount of circumstance will not make it a sin.

All that intent, circumstance and conscience will do is diminish culpability.

As for intent, nothing could be more pre-meditated than the murder of your own child.

No amount of conscinence rationalization will make it not a sin.

Moral subjectivism is precisely why we are living in a particularly immoral society. People seem to think that it is okay if my “conscience” says it is okay.

by only tackling the issue with reaction instead of proaction what do you honestly expect to fix?

This is where you err in your perception. This is not a problem that needs fixing. This is a sin that needs to be recognized for what it is.

As I have said before, this is not an economic issue but a moral issue.

I fail to see the logic in attempting to knock over a table, when you can prevent the table from being made by destroying the legs 1st.

Your analogy fails becuase of your failure to label correctly what the problem is.

Economics is not a leg in the table called abortion. This is a major lie.

The legs that make abortion is sin: lust, greed, self-centredness. Knock them out and you will see less abortion.

By saying that economics is one leg (or even THE leg) is to excuse abortion.

What causes abortion is sin. How do we tackle sin? First of all by recognizing that it is sin. Only when we recognize it for what it is will there be need for repentance.

 

[benedictus2]

The law is a teacher. Teach people that abortion is licit and they will do it. It is not the only factor, but it is fundamental to the issue. To deny that is to deny reality.

Vunderbar. If more of us keep saying that, perhaps the OP and some others will finally get the point.

That is exactly what I said twice in this thread. The law is a great educator. My friends think that somehow abortion is moral because it is legal.

 

[benedictus2]

I was stating to the comment on Christ speaking to persons who believe in Him. Hence my question on should we use Christs words to force others under our will?

This is the crutch of the issue that many in the Pro-Life movement seem to forget or not understand. Of course we can state that abortion is killing a human life in scientific and medical facts, there is not a lot you can do to argue against that. But our soceity has gone beyond that and even those in the scientific and medical community do not equate a human life with human person, some do of course but they are the minority anymore. Hence its not murder or even homocide according to our laws.

Is morality a matter of a majority vote? And who says that science should dictate what is moral? And why should we Christians be advocating for law that is against Christianity? For political correctness? For human respect?

So how do you force someone to believe that is a human being at conception?

Simple. The same way it has always been until Wade Vs Roe.
Do you force it by laws? How has that been working lately? PP is bigger then ever, abortion rates are still large.
Exactly. Since the legalization of abortion, more abortions have been performed. And this in a time of so called economic prosperity. That is why I have been saying from the beginning that you just are not grasping the root cause of the situation.

Way back then when times were harder, you see big families and less abortions.

Why? Because abortion was seen for the evil that it is.

So I re-iterate, stop buying into the devill’s rationalization of evil. Because that is all you are doing, trying to rationalize evil.

 

[Jermosh]

Actually no for this is not just a case of making the most of a bad situation. Abortion is not merely a bad situation. Abortion is an evil where the root is Sin not economic condition. As I have mentioned above, in this day and age where we are economically well off, abortion is on the rise.

I am not saying that we should not help those who need help, but first and foremost an act must be exposed for what it is OUTRIGHT EVIL.

By saying / implying that somehow the cause of abortion is financial / economic is to sanitize its particularly evil nature. So I maintain, that is playing into the devil’s own rationale.

You are making sin to be subjective. Morality is not subjective. Sin is an objective truth and no amount of circumstance will not make it a sin.

All that intent, circumstance and conscience will do is diminish culpability.

As for intent, nothing could be more pre-meditated than the murder of your own child.

No amount of conscinence rationalization will make it not a sin.

Moral subjectivism is precisely why we are living in a particularly immoral society. People seem to think that it is okay if my “conscience” says it is okay.

This is where you err in your perception. This is not a problem that needs fixing. This is a sin that needs to be recognized for what it is.

As I have said before, this is not an economic issue but a moral issue.

Your analogy fails becuase of your failure to label correctly what the problem is.

Economics is not a leg in the table called abortion. This is a major lie.

The legs that make abortion is sin: lust, greed, self-centredness. Knock them out and you will see less abortion.

By saying that economics is one leg (or even THE leg) is to excuse abortion.

What causes abortion is sin. How do we tackle sin? First of all by recognizing that it is sin. Only when we recognize it for what it is will there be need for repentance.

This is why you will always be on the otherside of the fence, you cannot help anyone from that side of the fence.

Where did Christ stay and eat with? What side of the fence do you think that He would have been on? Do you think He would have been on the outside with a sign telling them they are all living in sin? Or do you think that He would be inside making people understand by His mere presence?

Also, you have still have not explained how you are going to stop people from being sinful.

 

[st_lucy]

This is why you will always be on the otherside of the fence, you cannot help anyone from that side of the fence.

Where did Christ stay and eat with? What side of the fence do you think that He would have been on? Do you think He would have been on the outside with a sign telling them they are all living in sin? Or do you think that He would be inside making people understand by His mere presence?

Also, you have still have not explained how you are going to stop people from being sinful.

I don’t think you have ever particpatied in a prayer vigil at an abortion mill. Yes you are right there might be a few who tell those going into the mill that they are sinners and going to hell. But there are even more there giving them lititure and telling them the truth.

The answer to your question on how we are going to stop them from sinning, is by telling them the truth.

Jesus told the sinners the truth, he did not just sit with them and do nothing. This is a war, we need to fight the father of lies and we do that with the truth.

 

[Jermosh]

Is morality a matter of a majority vote? And who says that science should dictate what is moral? And why should we Christians be advocating for law that is against Christianity? For political correctness? For human respect?

Christian rule and law? Like Mary Dyer?

Simple. The same way it has always been until Wade Vs Roe.

Abortion was accepted in society long before RvsW. Event the Egyptians had abortion techniques, the early Church even spoke the evils of it. It would be naive to think that it is a modern issue and that its legality has anything to do with it happening.

Exactly. Since the legalization of abortion, more abortions have been performed. And this in a time of so called economic prosperity. That is why I have been saying from the beginning that you just are not grasping the root cause of the situation.

Way back then when times were harder, you see big families and less abortions.

Why? Because abortion was seen for the evil that it is.
This is a false paradigm based on the fact that you think that yesterday was less evil then today. Today is just as evil as the day that Christ was born or the day of the Great Fall.

So I re-iterate, stop buying into the devill’s rationalization of evil. Because that is all you are doing, trying to rationalize evil.

Stop with the false accusations, you have no real idea of my intent or grasp the idea that there is another valid avenue to stop abortions. You may think standing in a line with a sign in hand is effective, or sending gobs of money to groups in Washington is as well. I disagree and in fact have proof that they don’t work since abortion is more ingrained into our society then ever.

 

[Jermosh]

We cannot “force” anyone to truly accept the Christian religion. You say you are Catholic, so what is your point?

You still haven’t given your sources or statistics regarding the medical professions belief in abortion.

There is 4 minutes between this and your request. Enjoy your “Crusade”.

 

[Jermosh]

I don’t think you have ever particpatied in a prayer vigil at an abortion mill. Yes you are right there might be a few who tell those going into the mill that they are sinners and going to hell. But there are even more there giving them lititure and telling them the truth.

The answer to your question on how we are going to stop them from sinning, is by telling them the truth.

Jesus told the sinners the truth, he did not just sit with them and do nothing. This is a war, we need to fight the father of lies and we do that with the truth.

You are close to my point. Let me ask you this, where would Christ be at an abortion clinic? How would he get there? Do you honestly think He would be allowed to eat with sinners if treated them like sinners?