A "new brand" of fundamentalism

[PrinceCaspian]

About 10 years ago my brother was “born again”. Since then he has studied the bible and listened to various bible based radio shows across the US soaking up different arguments, doctrines and proof-texts to “share” with his family, friends etc.

But he found SOMETHING NEW… he now conforms to a particularly volatile form of fundamentalism, that of the “End of the Church Age” teachings. Basically a radio personality (i won’t mention the name - though you can easily google it) claims the Church Age is over and every “true believer” must come out of the churches and worship God with bible in hand and nothing else.

This new teaching is mostly targeted at Protestants who are disappointed with their churches “unorthodoxy” or leftest-theological leanings, but it is likewise an attack on the Authority and permanence of the Church militant.

This brand of fundamentalism which I describe as hyper-Calvinist (double predestination, the good ol’ solas, etc) is mixed with a claim that the “tribulation is on!!” and we’re really close to the 2nd coming. The leader of this heretical movement has written books claiming possible returns of Christ which have proven false,1994, 98 2000 and 2002 or 03 have past us by…

As a committed Catholic it is very difficult to be with my brother. I’m certainly not in a position to “teach” him anything about the faith… I’m his younger brother after all… and I’m very intimidated by him. I’d be interested to hear any suggestions about talking to my brother. Also, if anyone has run into the “End of the Church Age” teachings, I’d be interested in comments and arguments against such teachings.

---

Pax,

Caspian

 

[Denise_Shae]

About 10 years ago my brother was “born again”. Since then he has studied the bible and listened to various bible based radio shows across the US soaking up different arguments, doctrines and proof-texts to “share” with his family, friends etc.

But he found SOMETHING NEW… he now conforms to a particularly volatile form of fundamentalism, that of the “End of the Church Age” teachings. Basically a radio personality (i won’t mention the name - though you can easily google it) claims the Church Age is over and every “true believer” must come out of the churches and worship God with bible in hand and nothing else.

This new teaching is mostly targeted at Protestants who are disappointed with their churches “unorthodoxy” or leftest-theological leanings, but it is likewise an attack on the Authority and permanence of the Church militant.

This brand of fundamentalism which I describe as hyper-Calvinist (double predestination, the good ol’ solas, etc) is mixed with a claim that the “tribulation is on!!” and we’re really close to the 2nd coming. The leader of this heretical movement has written books claiming possible returns of Christ which have proven false,1994, 98 2000 and 2002 or 03 have past us by…

As a committed Catholic it is very difficult to be with my brother. I’m certainly not in a position to “teach” him anything about the faith… I’m his younger brother after all… and I’m very intimidated by him. I’d be interested to hear any suggestions about talking to my brother. Also, if anyone has run into the “End of the Church Age” teachings, I’d be interested in comments and arguments against such teachings.

---

Pax,

Caspian

Hi Caspian,

I’ve heard the term “double predestination”, before but don’t know what it means. Would you please explain it to me?

Thanks and God Bless!

 

[runandsew]

Would it bother your brother that this radio personality had predicted the end of the world would take place in 1994, or would he just brush false prophecies aside?

 

[Island_Oak]

About 10 years ago my brother was “born again”… As a committed Catholic it is very difficult to be with my brother. I’m certainly not in a position to “teach” him anything about the faith… I’m his younger brother after all… and I’m very intimidated by him. I’d be interested to hear any suggestions about talking to my brother. . .

Hows about you keep your discussions to sports, your kids, your careers, the great vacation you just took, your golf game, etc…This may be one of those relationships where you have to agree to disagree as you each risk offending the other and have little chance to convert each other (not to mention…it’s really not your job to do so). Be charitable and humble if discussions do arise, but don’t allow your differences to become a justification for alienating yourself from him.

 

[Denise_Shae]

About 10 years ago my brother was “born again”. Since then he has studied the bible and listened to various bible based radio shows across the US soaking up different arguments, doctrines and proof-texts to “share” with his family, friends etc.

But he found SOMETHING NEW… he now conforms to a particularly volatile form of fundamentalism, that of the “End of the Church Age” teachings. Basically a radio personality (i won’t mention the name - though you can easily google it) claims the Church Age is over and every “true believer” must come out of the churches and worship God with bible in hand and nothing else.

This new teaching is mostly targeted at Protestants who are disappointed with their churches “unorthodoxy” or leftest-theological leanings, but it is likewise an attack on the Authority and permanence of the Church militant.

This brand of fundamentalism which I describe as hyper-Calvinist (double predestination, the good ol’ solas, etc) is mixed with a claim that the “tribulation is on!!” and we’re really close to the 2nd coming. The leader of this heretical movement has written books claiming possible returns of Christ which have proven false,1994, 98 2000 and 2002 or 03 have past us by…

As a committed Catholic it is very difficult to be with my brother. I’m certainly not in a position to “teach” him anything about the faith… I’m his younger brother after all… and I’m very intimidated by him. I’d be interested to hear any suggestions about talking to my brother. Also, if anyone has run into the “End of the Church Age” teachings, I’d be interested in comments and arguments against such teachings.

---

Pax,

Caspian

The leader of this heretical movement has written books claiming possible returns of Christ which have proven false,1994, 98 2000 and 2002 or 03 have past us by…

This, alone, should cause your brother some doubt in this guy’s credibility.

Also, it mgiht be a good idea to make a list of what your brother believes, and over time, do your homework to disprove those false teachings (one at a time) with proof that he can check out himself, to back you up.

A good Apologetics site you might want to check out is: John Martignoni’s: Bible Christian Society. All info. is free. Even audio downloads. He’s very good at Catholic Apologetics. Make sure to check out his “Two Minute Apologetics” page and his Newsletters.

Hope this helps you.

God Bless!

 

[Denise_Shae]

About 10 years ago my brother was “born again”. Since then he has studied the bible and listened to various bible based radio shows across the US soaking up different arguments, doctrines and proof-texts to “share” with his family, friends etc.

But he found SOMETHING NEW… he now conforms to a particularly volatile form of fundamentalism, that of the “End of the Church Age” teachings. Basically a radio personality (i won’t mention the name - though you can easily google it) claims the Church Age is over and every “true believer” must come out of the churches and worship God with bible in hand and nothing else.

This new teaching is mostly targeted at Protestants who are disappointed with their churches “unorthodoxy” or leftest-theological leanings, but it is likewise an attack on the Authority and permanence of the Church militant.

This brand of fundamentalism which I describe as hyper-Calvinist (double predestination, the good ol’ solas, etc) is mixed with a claim that the “tribulation is on!!” and we’re really close to the 2nd coming. The leader of this heretical movement has written books claiming possible returns of Christ which have proven false,1994, 98 2000 and 2002 or 03 have past us by…

As a committed Catholic it is very difficult to be with my brother. I’m certainly not in a position to “teach” him anything about the faith… I’m his younger brother after all… and I’m very intimidated by him. I’d be interested to hear any suggestions about talking to my brother. Also, if anyone has run into the “End of the Church Age” teachings, I’d be interested in comments and arguments against such teachings.

---

Pax,

Caspian

IslandOak is right.

However, if your brother is the one pushing the issue of Religion and won’t let it go, then at least know how to answer him.

God Bless!

 

[PrinceCaspian]

Thanks for the quick responses!! You guys are great. It brings a smile to my face just to know there are other caring Catholics out there!!!

Predestination is when God chooses the elect to go to heaven.
Double predestination is when he has two kinds of “elect” one group goes to heaven, the other to hell; thus “double predestiny”.

I’ve gotten some advice from Benedictine monks who suggest similar ways of “keeping the peace”. Perhaps one of the problems is I’m too feisty… I get riled up and I want to answer him. Oh and by the way the only stuff he’s interested in is his fundamentalism so sports talk is out.

I am too feisty though. Maybe I should just spend more time at Adoration and pray to be relieved of my desire to convert him. Perhaps really what is driving this… he always wants to proselytize me and so, being a typical brother, I get the urge to do the same back to him.

Oh and it wouldn’t bother my brother that “1994?” wasn’t the date of Christs return because now they just claim that it was the beginning of the “End of the Church Age”.

Sigh.

Caspian

 

[Denise_Shae]

Thanks for the quick responses!! You guys are great. It brings a smile to my face just to know there are other caring Catholics out there!!!

Predestination is when God chooses the elect to go to heaven.
Double predestination is when he has two kinds of “elect” one group goes to heaven, the other to hell; thus “double predestiny”.

I’ve gotten some advice from Benedictine monks who suggest similar ways of “keeping the peace”. Perhaps one of the problems is I’m too feisty… I get riled up and I want to answer him. Oh and by the way the only stuff he’s interested in is his fundamentalism so sports talk is out.

I am too feisty though. Maybe I should just spend more time at Adoration and pray to be relieved of my desire to convert him. Perhaps really what is driving this… he always wants to proselytize me and so, being a typical brother, I get the urge to do the same back to him.

Oh and it wouldn’t bother my brother that “1994?” wasn’t the date of Christs return because now they just claim that it was the beginning of the “End of the Church Age”.

Sigh.

Caspian

Okay, help me out, here.

Predestination is when God chooses the elect to go to heaven.
Double predestination is when he has two kinds of “elect” one group goes to heaven, the other to hell; thus “double predestiny”.

If Predestination is when God chooses the elect to go to heaven, then where do the “non-elect” go? I’m assuming (since Non-Catholic Christians don’t believe in Purgatory), the only other place for them to go is hell.
Therefore, God has already chosen who will go to Heaven (the “elect”) and the others, abeit indirectly, hell.

So, if that’s the case, why/how did the concept of “Double Predestination” come about?

Or am I missing something, here?

Thanks and God Bless!

 

[Della]

When people get deeply involved in a cult, and that’s what you brother has gotten himself into here, they are fulfilling some need (or think they are) that makes them feel special and powerful. Your argument isn’t really about theology but about how your brother views/feels about the world.

To him all that matters is his cult–that’s the way cults operate. He is enthralled so nothing you can say or do will make any difference. My advise is to change the subject when he starts in on you. And if he won’t let it go, tell him you aren’t going to discuss it with him and walk away.

After a while he will either begin to see for himself how this cult is using him and leave on his own, or he will get more and more deeply involved. So, pray for him and let him go his own way. You cannot convert him or make him do anything, but you can pray hard for him and let the Holy Spirit and his own common sense (f he hasn’t completely abandoned it) do their job.

 

[Damascus]

I will pray for you and your brother.

I dont know anything about this new heresy except what I read here just now.

All I wanted to ask you (and I resisted- or tried to )

Its none of my business but- why not get to know the skinny then play dumb about it. Instead of going after his new flirtation in heresy, why not ask him what he does not like about the Catholic Church?

You are always going to have an advantage going that direction since you likely know much more than he does about the Catholic Church! (or he would be one already) so get him to tell you how you are wrong first.

You could end up spending SO much time being an expert on this cult that you might loose your gusto for your faith.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[Denise_Shae]

Thanks for the quick responses!! You guys are great. It brings a smile to my face just to know there are other caring Catholics out there!!!

Predestination is when God chooses the elect to go to heaven.
Double predestination is when he has two kinds of “elect” one group goes to heaven, the other to hell; thus “double predestiny”.

I’ve gotten some advice from Benedictine monks who suggest similar ways of “keeping the peace”. Perhaps one of the problems is I’m too feisty… I get riled up and I want to answer him. Oh and by the way the only stuff he’s interested in is his fundamentalism so sports talk is out.

I am too feisty though. Maybe I should just spend more time at Adoration and pray to be relieved of my desire to convert him. Perhaps really what is driving this… he always wants to proselytize me and so, being a typical brother, I get the urge to do the same back to him.

Oh and it wouldn’t bother my brother that “1994?” wasn’t the date of Christs return because now they just claim that it was the beginning of the “End of the Church Age”.

Sigh.

Caspian

I’ve gotten some advice from Benedictine monks who suggest similar ways of “keeping the peace”. Perhaps one of the problems is I’m too feisty… I get riled up and I want to answer him. Oh and by the way the only stuff he’s interested in is his fundamentalism so sports talk is out.

I am too feisty though. Maybe I should just spend more time at Adoration and pray to be relieved of my desire to convert him. Perhaps really what is driving this… he always wants to proselytize me and so, being a typical brother, I get the urge to do the same back to him.

Well join the “FEISTY” Club, Caspian! I’m the President of it.

That’s my first instinct when someone starts bashing the Catholic Church, Her priests, etc.

What you need to do is (and this is easier said than done) exercise “calm”.

You literally need to practice it. Next time he starts in on you, don’t aswer right away. Stop, take a breath and say to yourself,

** “Come O’ Holy Spirit, Thou, from the Heavenly regions now. Beems of light impart”.**

You might have to say it a few times.

If, at the time, you don’t have an answer for him; just let him talk.

When you finally can answer him, start off by saying something like, “I hear what you’re saying (or I respect your position), but I politely disagree with you”, then present your argument, in a calm and cheerful manner. Make sure you can back up everything you say.

Do you have an Apologetics Bible? That would really help you out with regards to backing up the Church’s Teachings with Sacred Scripture.

That “politely disagreeing” line really throws them off, because they’re expecting you to jump all over them.

I started using that line with my own family, and it seems to take the wind out of their sails, so to speak.

But you really need to practice that “Calm”, first.

God Bless!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

I f you want to talk with him about this I would use Scripture with him. He believes the bible—right. I cant find the verse right now but the one that says NO ONE knows when Christ will return, not the day, time etc. That pretty much sums it up right there end of discussion. I mean if God said we would not know then we will not know.

Otherwise, I agree with some of the other posters–talk about something else.

 

[tdgesq]

But he found SOMETHING NEW… he now conforms to a particularly volatile form of fundamentalism, that of the “End of the Church Age” teachings. Basically a radio personality (i won’t mention the name - though you can easily google it) claims the Church Age is over and every “true believer” must come out of the churches and worship God with bible in hand and nothing else.

Something else I have noticed is that young men especially are drawn toward strong authority figures that claim to offer the truth. When we are struggling with the questions of Christianity, someone who appears to have all the answers can easily become the standard for truth. I agree with the other posters that it would be unwise to directly confront your brother on what this radio personality teaches. I know that I have to be very careful with certain of my Evangelical brothers who are enamoured with some charasimatic pastor or another. A direct challenge to the pastor usually results in alienation.

Nevertheless, you should have something in your hip pocket if you are directly challenged. It is a little bit ironic that what this guy seems to be preaching is not the far off from what many of the Protestant denominations and other Bible churches have already said. The Bible alone taken to its extreme is not all that uncommon. Still, it is true that most churches make claim to some type of disciplinary authority within their own organization.

I guess I would always keep in mind that this radio personality is acting as a teaching authority by telling his listeners how they ought to interpret the Bible. The fact that he doesn’t have a physical building with people personally present where he teaches his views about the Bible makes no practical difference. It is just a different medium for getting across his message. If he really claims that we must “worship God with bible in hand and nothing else,” then we shouldn’t be listening to him about how to interpret the scriptures. I see a contradiction in the works.

 

[Damascus]

Hi,

I f you want to talk with him about this I would use Scripture with him. He believes the bible—right. I cant find the verse right now but the one that says NO ONE knows when Christ will return, not the day, time etc. That pretty much sums it up right there end of discussion. I mean if God said we would not know then we will not know.

Otherwise, I agree with some of the other posters–talk about something else.

Yeah, I agree afh,

but here’s the problem. The cults that do this thing (JW’s come to mind) always have some distorted twisting of the scripture to justify the false predictions!!!
It sucks some in that are emotional and react to scare tactics.

Trust me. Check out my posts on all the JW threads. I kid you not.

Unfortunately, I know all too well how insidious this can be.

Thanks be to God I never fell for that *&^%.

Hossana in the highest!

 

[Denise_Shae]

Something else I have noticed is that young men especially are drawn toward strong authority figures that claim to offer the truth. When we are struggling with the questions of Christianity, someone who appears to have all the answers can easily become the standard for truth. I agree with the other posters that it would be unwise to directly confront your brother on what this radio personality teaches. I know that I have to be very careful with certain of my Evangelical brothers who are enamoured with some charasimatic pastor or another. A direct challenge to the pastor usually results in alienation.

Nevertheless, you should have something in your hip pocket if you are directly challenged. It is a little bit ironic that what this guy seems to be preaching is not the far off from what many of the Protestant denominations and other Bible churches have already said. The Bible alone taken to its extreme is not all that uncommon. Still, it is true that most churches make claim to some type of disciplinary authority within their own organization.

I guess I would always keep in mind that this radio personality is acting as a teaching authority by telling his listeners how they ought to interpret the Bible. The fact that he doesn’t have a physical building with people personally present where he teaches his views about the Bible makes no practical difference. It is just a different medium for getting across his message. If he really claims that we must “worship God with bible in hand and nothing else,” then we shouldn’t be listening to him about how to interpret the scriptures. I see a contradiction in the works.

Something else I have noticed is that** young men especially are drawn toward strong authority figures that claim to offer the truth.** When we are struggling with the questions of Christianity, someone who appears to have all the answers can easily become the standard for truth. I agree with the other posters that it would be unwise to directly confront your brother on what this radio personality teaches. I know that I have to be very careful with certain of my Evangelical brothers who are enamoured with some charasimatic pastor or another. A direct challenge to the pastor usually results in alienation.

You hit the nail right on the head!

My “Born-again” Bible believing friend has two “popes”: Jack Van Impe and Hank Hanagraph <sp?>

They can say/do no wrong. So, whenever my dear friend brings up a sermon from one of these preachers, I try to find (sometimes desperately) some common teaching that we can both agree on.

God Bless!

 

[jmcrae]

If Predestination is when God chooses the elect to go to heaven, then where do the “non-elect” go?

The non-elect could still go to Heaven under ordinary predestination - it’s just that there are some people who are predestined to go to Heaven (they literally can’t commit mortal sin after baptism) whereas the non-elect would be people like you and me who struggle with sin, but hope ultimately to win the battle with God’s help.

Under double-predestination, God not only elects some to go to Heaven, He also elects the remainder to go to Hell, so you have one group that isn’t capable of choosing to sin, and another group that is incapable of repenting of their sins, with nobody in between.

 

[Denise_Shae]

The non-elect could still go to Heaven under ordinary predestination - it’s just that there are some people who are predestined to go to Heaven (they literally can’t commit mortal sin after baptism) whereas the non-elect would be people like you and me who struggle with sin, but hope ultimately to win the battle with God’s help.

Under double-predestination, God not only elects some to go to Heaven, He also elects the remainder to go to Hell, so you have one group that isn’t capable of choosing to sin, and another group that is incapable of repenting of their sins, with nobody in between.

Thanks so much for the explanation.

If I remember correctly, it was Calvin who came up with "Double-predestination. Did he also come up with Predestination, or was that taught by someone else? (Unfortunately, my history on the Reformation is definitely lacking)

Thanks again and God Bless!

 

[maryj]

About 10 years ago my brother was “born again”. Since then he has studied the bible and listened to various bible based radio shows across the US soaking up different arguments, doctrines and proof-texts to “share” with his family, friends etc.

But he found SOMETHING NEW… he now conforms to a particularly volatile form of fundamentalism, that of the “End of the Church Age” teachings. Basically a radio personality (i won’t mention the name - though you can easily google it) claims the Church Age is over and every “true believer” must come out of the churches and worship God with bible in hand and nothing else.

This new teaching is mostly targeted at Protestants who are disappointed with their churches “unorthodoxy” or leftest-theological leanings, but it is likewise an attack on the Authority and permanence of the Church militant.

This brand of fundamentalism which I describe as hyper-Calvinist (double predestination, the good ol’ solas, etc) is mixed with a claim that the “tribulation is on!!” and we’re really close to the 2nd coming. The leader of this heretical movement has written books claiming possible returns of Christ which have proven false,1994, 98 2000 and 2002 or 03 have past us by…

As a committed Catholic it is very difficult to be with my brother. I’m certainly not in a position to “teach” him anything about the faith… I’m his younger brother after all… and I’m very intimidated by him. I’d be interested to hear any suggestions about talking to my brother. Also, if anyone has run into the “End of the Church Age” teachings, I’d be interested in comments and arguments against such teachings.

---

Pax,

Caspian

I hear ya here. My oldest and dearest friends husband has become involved in this non-sense too. You see that your being catholic is a huge catalist for him, he is trying to save you. My friends husband just ordered a bunch of tapes to help him evangelize his catholic brothers and sisters, and get them out of satans church before the end times come.It’s a very difficult position. I am trying to help my friend by giving her some responses to his endless obsession with this.I sent her my copy of Paul thigpens book which gives the catholic response to the “end times” fury. He found the book I had sent her, saw catholic on the front and absolutely refused to read any of it. So theres battle number one in dealing with this in the fact that I’m fairly certain even if you did have some answers for him, he won’t listen to catholic reasoning. Pray, pray, pray, was my response to her, and that I think most people who get involved in the type of thing just burn themselves out of it. These prophecys don’t come to pass and they do finally see that. Dispensationalists will quote the bible verse about,“two shall be in the field working, one will be taken the other will be left” ask him who was left after the flood. was it the bad people or was it noah and his family. Ask him who was left behind after sodom and gamorrah was destroyed by God, was it the fornicators, the lust filled, or was it Lot and his daughters?? And then I (I’m also a little fiesty, my priest calls me the trouble maker, I take that as a complement) would state straight out, Lord I pray I am blessed to be “left behind” . Check out paul thigpens book. The Rapture theory.

 

[Damascus]

Thanks so much for the explanation.

If I remember correctly, it was Calvin who came up with "Double-predestination. Did he also come up with Predestination, or was that taught by someone else? (Unfortunately, my history on the Reformation is definitely lacking)

Thanks again and God Bless!

I think you should ask Gottle of Geer to elaborate-- I recall he knows quite a bit about this topic!