A new look at the TRINITY

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ok either i have recieved a personal revelation from God or i am basing these thoughts out of complete idiocy…as far as i can tell none of what i am saying contradicts scripture…whether it contradicts tradition i do not know…i was hoping if you could tell me because if it is i will drop the examples immediately and try to study more

Jesus calls the Will of God His Father, however any action that is peformed by God such as Judgement of the World, of the Creation of the World is described as being done by Jesus…Whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned it is in relation to HOW this action is performed it always involves wisdom and a WAY

a way to talk about the creation of the world using this method…the Father Willed the creation of the universe which is WHY Jesus CREATED it by WAY of the Holy Spirit–Father made the decision that was carried out by Jesus in a particular way decided by the Holy Spirit all acting at exactly the same time

Father- the WILL OF GOD
Jesus- the ACTION OF GOD
Holy Spirit- the WISDOM OF GOD

answers to some objections- why does Jesus say the father is greater than he? Jesus’ own definition of greater is this: whoever is least is greater, whoever is greatest serves most…so if that is the definition of great then when Jesus says the father is greater he is stating this: Jesus says His Will is both being served and at his service

this would seem contradictory because it would then appear that Jesus has two seperate wills, His own and his father, but if GOd is one then there is only one will and that is the fathers…that is easily solved because we are also taught that when Jesus took a human nature he has both a Divine will and a Human will, even though this two wills are in cooperation they are still two seperate wills, if they weren’t then Jesus wouldn’t of been able to take on mankind’s sins or suffer in the Garden
 
ok that sounded confusing let me try to explain it as simply as possible

God the Father is the WILL OF GOD…when Jesus prays to the Father he is consulting the will of God…How Jesus prays is determined by the Holy Spirit…and the reason Jesus prays is because the Father Wills it

Jesus will Judge the world because it is the Will of the Father…how he will judge the world (what criteria) will be done by the Holy Spirit via searching people’s hearts

these three are still one just like your own self is not seperated by your will, action, and wisdom, they are distinct but all within human nature…but in God they are three seperate persons due to the very nature of God being ONE…logically God can only be one but we have to understand it as 3 persons due to the three persons of being- the Will is, as is the action, and the knowledge/wisdom
 
Lot of confusion. The Trinity is the 3 ‘persons’, aspects of the One God: 'God the Father" is the Creator of Everything (The Univerese, Us) and Is Love. Jesus Christ is his Full Human Form9 Fully completely humand and God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit, the operative ‘fire’, Inspiration of God. We who do Legion of Mary Door-to-Door evangelization know that Humans can’t covert others; we only begin the human thought provoking, early education about Our Lord/God.
It is said Only the Holy Sprit inspires people to the Priesthood, Sisterhood, Brotherhood, Deaconate; we begin by Praying for Our Lord’s help: The Holy Spirit.
It’s important to note that St Paul Baptized a Family “In the Father, The Son, the Holy Spirit” as well as the First Confirmation, to bring the Holy Sporit unto the then first/early converts.
 
This seems awfully close to the heresy called Modalism-- a singular Person with 3 divine aspects, or 3 modes of operation, rather than one God in 3 complete and separate Persons. While you don’t seem to be suggesting true Modalism, where only one “face” or aspect of the singular Person of God is expressed at any one time (the Father in the Old Testament, the Son in the New, and the Holy Ghost after the Ascension), it still seems too close for comfort.
 
juno24 said:
This seems awfully close to the heresy called Modalism-- a singular Person with 3 divine aspects, or 3 modes of operation, rather than one God in 3 complete and separate Persons. While you don’t seem to be suggesting true Modalism, where only one “face” or aspect of the singular Person of God is expressed at any one time (the Father in the Old Testament, the Son in the New, and the Holy Ghost after the Ascension), it still seems too close for comfort.
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no where did i say there was a singular person with 3 divine aspects, in fact i said just the opposite, i said there were 1 divine aspect with 3 divine persons, if i have gone wrong in my explanation please quote exactly where i went wrong and explain how it is wrong, otherwise it just seems that you do not understand what i am saying
 
are you trying to say that the 3 persons in God have 3 seperate wills?
 
are you further saying that the holy spirit father and son do not share knowledge or that when they act they do not act in unison? because from what you have said so far that seems to be the conclusion your logic would come to…once again i humbly ask that you quote where i went wrong exactly and explain it to me…a misinterpretation of what i said can easily be clarified, but putting words in my mouth will just add to the confusion
 
jenniferpet88 said:
ok either i have recieved a personal revelation from God or i am basing these thoughts out of complete idiocy…as far as i can tell none of what i am saying contradicts scripture…whether it contradicts tradition i do not know…i was hoping if you could tell me because if it is i will drop the examples immediately and try to study more

Jesus calls the Will of God His Father, however any action that is peformed by God such as Judgement of the World, of the Creation of the World is described as being done by Jesus…Whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned it is in relation to HOW this action is performed it always involves wisdom and a WAY

a way to talk about the creation of the world using this method…the Father Willed the creation of the universe which is WHY Jesus CREATED it by WAY of the Holy Spirit–Father made the decision that was carried out by Jesus in a particular way decided by the Holy Spirit all acting at exactly the same time

Father- the WILL OF GOD
Jesus- the ACTION OF GOD
Holy Spirit- the WISDOM OF GOD

answers to some objections- why does Jesus say the father is greater than he? Jesus’ own definition of greater is this: whoever is least is greater, whoever is greatest serves most…so if that is the definition of great then when Jesus says the father is greater he is stating this: Jesus says His Will is both being served and at his service

this would seem contradictory because it would then appear that Jesus has two seperate wills, His own and his father, but if GOd is one then there is only one will and that is the fathers…that is easily solved because we are also taught that when Jesus took a human nature he has both a Divine will and a Human will, even though this two wills are in cooperation they are still two seperate wills, if they weren’t then Jesus wouldn’t of been able to take on mankind’s sins or suffer in the Garden
Click to expand...
You’ve raised some good questions. I think you are correct that Jesus has both a divine will and a human will (as well as a divine intellect and a human intellect). Jesus is still just one Person, the Second Person of the Trinity. Explaining all this is quite daunting.

It is helpful to meditate on the sequence in the Persons of the Trinity. God the Father is the First Person; God the Son, the Second Person; and the Holy Spirit, the Third Person.
Why is there this order to the Persons?

And, because there is a plurality of Persons, modalism if understood as asserting just one Person is not correct.

There is just one Divine Nature however.

In some ways, Divine Nature is analogous to what we usually mean by nature.

But, in other ways, Divine Nature is very different indeed.

It is outside species/genus.

The Divine Essence and the Divine Esse are one and the same. But with the creatures there is a real distinction between essence and esse.

And each Person of the Trinity possesses the Divine Nature whole and entire; the Divine Nature is not shared among the Persons like creaturely nature is shared by individual creatures.

There is, for example, just one Divine Intellect and one Divine Will.

All of this is mind-blowing.
 
levinas12 said:
You’ve raised some good questions. I think you are correct that Jesus has both a divine will and a human will (as well as a divine intellect and a human intellect). Jesus is still just one Person, the Second Person of the Trinity. Explaining all this is quite daunting.

It is helpful to meditate on the sequence in the Persons of the Trinity. God the Father is the First Person; God the Son, the Second Person; and the Holy Spirit, the Third Person.
Why is there this order to the Persons?

And, because there is a plurality of Persons, modalism if understood as asserting just one Person is not correct.

There is just one Divine Nature however. Person is not the same as Nature. But the Divine Nature is different than the natures of creatures. Divine Nature is outside species/genus; it is in some way analogous to what we usually mean by nature in the Aristotelian sense. But in other ways iDivine Nature is very different indeed. Because the Divine Essence and the Divine Esse are one and the same. But with the creatures there is a real distinction between essence and esse.

All of this is mind-blowing.
Click to expand...
i think the main thing that is forgotten here (and there is soo much to remember when analyzing this) is that although there is no order to the divine persons in time there is still an ETERNAL generation of the WORD from the FATHER and an ETERNAL generation of the HOLY SPIRIT from both…would not an ETERNAL WILL generate an ETERNAL WORD? and it can even be thought of in a loop since time is indeed not a factor…if the Holy Spirit is the “how” then we can say the will generates the word by way of the holy spirit because that is what god’s will IS and how god wills it…BUT as soon as we say the words “WHAT” we are implying Jesus and as soon as we say the word HOW we are implying the Holy SPirit, and all this is done without doing away with divine persons, in fact it gives the three divine persons MORE of a distinction without taking away from their nature…indeed saying that somehow these three divine persons have seperate wills knowledge and actions…NOW THAT WOULD BE taking away from the essence of divinity which is God
 
if we take God’s identity as “I AM” or “to be” we assume an intelligent living God which implies a will, an action to be peformed, and a way to perform the action…the only reason someone would cry modalism, is to forget every other fact laid out about the trinity and forget that we are talking about divine nature which is much different from human nature…humans have many possible identities because of their human nature, but a divine nature allows ONLY 3, there is no way to take out 1 or add another, it is as simple and fundemantal as possible with just 3, any less would be an incomplete discription
 
jenniferpet88 said:
a way to talk about the creation of the world using this method…the Father Willed the creation of the universe which is WHY Jesus CREATED it by WAY of the Holy Spirit–Father made the decision that was carried out by Jesus in a particular way decided by the Holy Spirit all acting at exactly the same time
Click to expand...
We usually speak in terms of the Father and not Jesus as the creator since the order of the trinity is that from the Father proceeds the Son.
 
passus said:
We usually speak in terms of the Father and not Jesus as the creator since the order of the trinity is that from the Father proceeds the Son.
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really-- 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

as we all know the Word refers to Jesus—of course he didn’t create the world without the Father Willing it
 
this passage in John sayins “through Him” meaning as an instrument meaning as the right hand of God meaning as the divine person distinguished as the one doing the action itself…and by your same logic are you saying that solely the father was responsible for the creation of the world and not jesus or the spirit even though Genisis describes the “Spirit of God”? See by your own logic followed to its conclusion would seperate the trinity, whereas what i am proposing unites it in a way that is necessary
 
further more there is no way to say that God created the universe seperate from him willing it (the father) creating it (the son) and deciding what kind of universe (holy spirit) you can not seperate one from the other if you do you get this

god created the universe for no reason
god created the universe by act of random chance atheist view
god created a matrix style universe in which nothing is real
 
  • St Augustin, one of the Wisest Thinkers in Church (and wold) History 1600 years ago, Wrote Massive Volumes trying to explain The Trinity, Another trying to Explain God. He is considered the Best attempt to Explain Each.
    Code: 
     St   Augustin    wrote the   *Still  Definive*    'Justifications   for War'

                                                                                                            Your Posts  are very  thought provoking,  Jenniferpet88, and  everyone,  Thanks!   :thumbsup::yup::clapping::tiphat:                                                                                                                                                                                                     We  mere  Humans   can not  begin  to  explain The Divine, The Ideal,  Ideal Love, -Perfection, the  Impossible,  Ideal  IDEALISM  of God.   We  discover  bits and  pieces  during our  life:  Nature,    etc. We   will discover the  rest In Heaven,  Which IS  With  God.
 
Considering the impact he had on the world, relatively few words are attributed to Yeshua in the Gospels. More actions than words. One of my favorite quotes is, “There are too many words . . .” Then, “The truth is in your heart.” He never used the word Trinity. Interesting don’t you think? Fact: more Christians were killed by Christians over the “ouisa” substance of Yeshua than by Roman emperors. We are still arguing over it.
I wrote a book Resonant Trinities (Tate Publishing) about what it means to be in the image of God. The image? A trinity of mind, heart, and spirit. A homomorphism of God’s image in us; a structure preserving mapping of one complex structure to another. Do you see/feel the trinity of mind, heart, and spirit in you? Why not in God? The only problem I have left is gender assignment when gender in the spiritual world is what is illogical, the word that started your discussion.
Gene Ort
 
=jenniferpet88;8169940]ok either i have recieved a personal revelation from God or i am basing these thoughts out of complete idiocy…as far as i can tell none of what i am saying contradicts scripture…whether it contradicts tradition i do not know…i was hoping if you could tell me because if it is i will drop the examples immediately and try to study more
Click to expand...
Jesus calls the Will of God His Father, however any action that is peformed by God such as Judgement of the World, of the Creation of the World is described as being done by Jesus…Whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned it is in relation to HOW this action is performed it always involves wisdom and a WAY
Click to expand...
a way to talk about the creation of the world using this method…the Father Willed the creation of the universe which is WHY Jesus CREATED it by WAY of the Holy Spirit–Father made the decision that was carried out by Jesus in a particular way decided by the Holy Spirit all acting at exactly the same time
Click to expand...
Father- the WILL OF GOD
Jesus- the ACTION OF GOD
Holy Spirit- the WISDOM OF GOD
Click to expand...
answers to some objections- why does Jesus say the father is greater than he? Jesus’ own definition of greater is this: whoever is least is greater, whoever is greatest serves most…so if that is the definition of great then when Jesus says the father is greater he is stating this: Jesus says His Will is both being served and at his service
Click to expand...
this would seem contradictory because it would then appear that Jesus has two seperate wills, His own and his father, but if GOd is one then there is only one will and that is the fathers…that is easily solved because we are also taught that when Jesus took a human nature he has both a Divine will and a Human will, even though this two wills are in cooperation they are still two seperate wills, if they weren’t then Jesus wouldn’t of been able to take on mankind’s sins or suffer in the Garden
Click to expand...
***My dear friend in Christ.

If in fact you did have a revelation, I ASSURE it is not from God:) Which does not deny that you did in fact “have one.”

There is One and Only One God, with ONE Perfect in every possible way, NATURE. Within that Nature are three seperate [but unable to be seperated “persons”.]

The First point we need to grasp is that God chooses to make Himself know in this manner for the sake of Human Understanding. It is in NO WAY, necesaary for God. We benefit; God does not.

Second point: By virtue of the fact that they share equally ONE PERFECT Nature: everything ones does; all do. Everything Ones thinks, they all think; anything that one “sufferes” All suffer, ; anything One desires, All desire and so forth.

God Bless you,
Pat

That the Godhead “assigns” roles to each “person” is to aid our understanding; not a requirement in any essential or even necessary sense.

The Trinity helps us better grasp the “wholeness” and “awesomness” of God. It is God’s Will that He DESIRES far more than we do [even more than the most ardent Saint] to be ina personal relationship with us. It is God who choose Abraham, Noah, Moses, Dsavid, Soloman, the Judges, Kings and prophets, Mary, John the Baptizer, the Apostles, Peter and even you and me.

**John 15:6 ***“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you”.

There is ONLY One God; One set of [acceptable] faith beliefs, and Only the Church founded by Christ; todays Catholic Church.**

Thee REASON Jesus said “My father is Greater than Me” is to POINT out His Dual Natures as “man” like us in every way but sin; and as God. Jesus ALONE has TWO complete and Perfect natures. That of God, and that of man. Both perfect, Both complete, and Christ often switched from One nature to the other at Will. The Father is GREATER than Christ human nature; BUT IDENTICAL to His Godly nature.

God Bless,
Pat
 
The response to my thread about the image of God within us, and a response to Jennifer’s possible revelation from God about the Trinity are telling. In one, it is called “nonsense” and in another assures her that it did not come from God!!! I defy ANYONE to tell Jennifer with ASSURANCE (or otherwise) that she did not have a revelation from God, or at the very least, the possible beginning of a glorious exploration, seeking the “knowledge of God”. I wonder what God would say about such judgements without the necessary (name removed by moderator)ut? It might be to point to Solomon telling us to cry out for answers to our questions; seek answers as you would treasure and find the knowledge of God. (I know, that’s not a quote.)

Jennifer, it is my experience that it may have been the Holy Spirit or an angel trying to get your attention. View it with an open heart and continue to ask questions and see what happens. Be patient, it can take time but you just might learn to ask better questions and get more direct answers. That was my experience after being told I was going to die, no chance for recovery. Eleven years later at age 73, I wrote a book about recovery and God’s image giving my wife’s angel all the credit. I implore you to judge the experience by how it feels in your heart. If it resonates with you, you just might be on the journey of a lifetime and may find answers that could help many of us with questions. Worst case, you will likely feel closer to God for the seeking.

About St. Augustin’s writings: St. Thomas Aquinas wrote volumes that remain to this day the basis of theological underpinnings of the Church. But he had one experience with Jesus late in life and quit writing altogether, saying after what Jesus showed him, his “words were like straw.”
Gene (New to this forum: What does “banned” under Jennifer’s name mean)
 
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