A New Mass Is Needed

[kermitz06]

I come from a family torn between ardent SSPX members and 4 married in-laws and spouses recently converted to the RCC. neither side is even willing to go to the others’ Mass, which akes it quite difficult during family reunions.

I seem to be the only one willing to go both ways, but neither way really inspires.

To me what the RCC seems to need is a new Mass. One that adheres much more stringently to the Traditional views, but still is one that allows participation.

I don’t want to do away with the TLM, but we need a Mass format that allows and incourages lay participation (in the way of responding to prayers, singing, etc, not distribution Communion), I do not think however that we need to keep the N.O.

We need something inbetween the arch-conservative and the extreme liberal versions of the Mass, if not in place of the N.O. In my honost opinion, the Traditional Mass translated to the vernacular, and prayed aloud would be great.

What say you?

God Bless.

 

[ProVobis]

Consider yourself lucky for having such a religious (and practicing) family. That said, imagine what it would be if you all spoke different languages.

 

[kermitz06]

It is very nice, I wouldn’t have it any other way. (the new Mass would ideally just do away with the N.O. )

 

[Cluny]

Try the Melkites or Ruthenians.

A traditional liturgy, sung throughout, with people participating in the vernacular.

That should make every in your family happy–or equally miserable.

 

[mattkubes]

We need something inbetween the arch-conservative and the extreme liberal versions of the Mass, if not in place of the N.O. In my honost opinion, the Traditional Mass translated to the vernacular, and prayed aloud would be great.

All this means is that we need the OF celebrated the way it was intended to be celebrated. No liturgical innovations, no abuses - just reverence and adherence to the rubrics. We don’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Ockham]

The Tridentine Mass isn’t ultra-conservative or any other label. It is our rightful heritage, the Mass of the ages, organic, handed down in the apostolic tradition for centuries. The NO was invented by committee, contrary to the apostolic way and obviously vulnerable to abusive customization.

The four marks of the Church are: one, holy, catholic, apostolic. The Tridentine Mass fulfills each requirement whereas the NO does not. Although I suspect we will see the Tridentine Mass said in the venacular as a means of introduction to the post-Vatican II generation, only the Church’s official language keeps the Mass adhering to the mark of “catholic”.

Hopefully, the NO will be recorded as a bizarre footnote in the history of our beloved Church. Perhaps a sign of the secular/materialistic times, infiltration of Church enemies, or just a bad accident, the NO was an experiment gone wrong.

 

[Cluny]

**the Mass of the ages, **

I see red whenever I see this statement.

The Tridentine mass is no more the “mass of the ages” than are the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, Ss Addai and Mari, or Ambrosian rite. All are equally old and venerable.

ALL authorized Eucharistic Liturgies of the Church can justly be called “the mass of the ages.”

 

[CradleCath]

I come from a family torn between ardent SSPX members and 4 married in-laws and spouses recently converted to the RCC. neither side is even willing to go to the others’ Mass, which akes it quite difficult during family reunions.

I seem to be the only one willing to go both ways, but neither way really inspires.

To me what the RCC seems to need is a new Mass. One that adheres much more stringently to the Traditional views, but still is one that allows participation.

I don’t want to do away with the TLM, but we need a Mass format that allows and incourages lay participation (in the way of responding to prayers, singing, etc, not distribution Communion), I do not think however that we need to keep the N.O.

We need something inbetween the arch-conservative and the extreme liberal versions of the Mass, if not in place of the N.O. In my honost opinion, the Traditional Mass translated to the vernacular, and prayed aloud would be great.

What say you?

God Bless.

First I’ll say that I am a traditional Catholic & have attended the TLM. exclusively for the past year. The LAST thing we need right now, is yet another Mass. I think we need to let the dust settle from Summorum Pontificum & see what happens organically re the Mass. (It’s my belief that the existence & success of the TLM will greatly affect how the Novus Ordo will be prayed. Gradually, the abuses will fade.)
We are also in the middle of negotiations with the SSPX & I think that we are all praying that the divisions between the HMChurch & the SSPX people will soon come to an end the two will become one Church again.

I grew up in an extended family that was part devout Methodist & part… just as devoutly… Catholic, but there were no religious problems at family reunions. Your family, on the other hand, both basically practice the Catholic faith, so I guess I don’t really understand the problem.

 

[Ockham]

*The rite of Mass as we all knew it up to the beginning of the Council was the culmination of a gradual and natural development under the Holy Ghost which had lasted for fifteen hundred and seventy years. By the year of Our Lord 1570, at the end of the Council of Trent, it had reached as near perfection as anything on earth could ever be.

“It is,” wrote Father Frederick Faber, “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. It came forth out of the grand mind of the Church and lifted us out of earth and out of self, and wrapped us round in a cloud of mystical sweetness and the sublimities of a more than angelic liturgy, and purified us almost without ourselves, and charmed us with celestial charming so that our very senses seemed to find vision, hearing, fragrance, taste and touch more than ear can give.”
What a wonderful, wonderful, description that is of the old Mass.
4. Pope St. Pius V in 1570, after the Council of Trent, did not devise a new rite of Mass, as is often claimed by those who devised the new Mass in the 1960s. He was content to codify the Roman Missal which existed at that time (the so-called Tridentine Mass) and extend its use throughout the whole Church as a bulwark against the attacks on the Church from the Reformation which was taking place throughout Europe at that time in the sixteenth century. Its prayers and its ceremonies made the Catholic doctrines of Sacrifice and the Real Presence absolutely explicit in accordance with the principle - lex orandi, lex credendi, - the law of prayer is the law of faith, or, what you pray is what you believe. The term Tridentine Mass is a little misleading. Father Adrian Fortescue, England’s greatest liturgical historian, wrote:

“Our Mass goes back without essential change to the age when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as God… there is not in Christendom a rite so venerable as ours.” latin-mass-society.org/leomass.htm

“The Tridentine or Roman Rite Mass while it has developed organically over the 2,000 year history of the Church, is essentially the Mass that was given to the Apostles and the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Although various rites emerged, they all maintained the same spirit imparted to the liturgy by Our Lord and were only adapted to various cultures without any deviation in doctrine. The Roman Rite, up to Vatican II, underwent only minor changes, such that the famous English liturgist Fr. Adrian Fortescue was able to state that “no one has ventured to touch it except in unimportant details.”” www.olrl.org*

When compared to the Novus Ordo, invented by Bugnini and six protestant ministers to incorporate long standing Protestant features such as facing people (back towards God), venacular and communion in hand, the Tridentine Mass is truly a Mass of all ages.

 

[malphono]

the Mass of the ages

You are, of course, correct, Cluny. Years ago, that expression irked me too. It took a while, but when I came to realize that the speakers were generally ignorant of anything beyond the Latin Rite, I was able to dismiss it. These days, it still doesn’t thrill me, but at least I can ignore the words.

 

[DavidPalm]

The LAST thing we need right now, is yet another Mass. I think we need to let the dust settle from Summorum Pontificum & see what happens organically re the Mass.

I very much agree with this. When I read the OP my immediate thought was, “Like a hole in the head we need a New Mass.” I will say, however, that IMO having the laity chant the Ordinary of the TLM, as numerous Popes starting with St. Pius X have called for, would go a long way to address what the OP is talking about.

 

[Ockham]

Excuse my “ignorance”. I am of the Roman rite and unfamiliar with the breakaway rites. The Tridentine Mass was codified at the Council of Trent having developed organically since the first Christians began saying Mass. The NO was launched in April 1969. My reference to the term “Mass of the ages” applies to the distinction between the two. The Tridentine Mass is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. The NO is highlighted by clowns, super soakers, liturgical dance, laity ‘participation’, dwindling attendence and adherence to doctrine.

 

[rpp]

**the Mass of the ages, **

I see red whenever I see this statement.

The Tridentine mass is no more the “mass of the ages” than are the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, Ss Addai and Mari, or Ambrosian rite. All are equally old and venerable.

ALL authorized Eucharistic Liturgies of the Church can justly be called “the mass of the ages.”

When speaking about the Traditional Latin Mass, clearly the context is the Latin Rite, not the other Rites you mentioned. If you are “seeing red”, when someone says “the Mass of the ages”, it is because you are choosing to ignore the context.

As for the topic at hand. I do not believe we need a “new Mass”. That is absolutely the LAST thing we need. It would tear the Church apart more than the introduction of the Novus Ordo (OF) did in the late 1960s.

 

[malphono]

I very much agree with this. When I read the OP my immediate thought was, “Like a hole in the head we need a New Mass.” I will say, however, that IMO having the laity chant the Ordinary of the TLM, as numerous Popes starting with St. Pius X have called for, would go a long way to address what the OP is talking about.

True. This is along the same lines as something in another recent thread. For the sake of economy I won’t repeat my comment now, but for reference it can be found [post=4891948]here[/post].

 

[CradleCath]

**the Mass of the ages, **

I see red whenever I see this statement.

**The Tridentine mass is no more the “mass of the ages” **than are the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, Ss Addai and Mari, or Ambrosian rite. All are equally old and venerable.

Of course the Tridentine Mass is the Mass of the Ages in the Latin Church. Any & all changes in it, were organic. They developed, the Mass grew & changed organically much like an oak tree. It was planted by Christ, watered by the apostles & Church Fathers & cared for by the heirarchy, the Popes & the laity throughout the ages. Once in a while, it was pruned, a dying limb removed, a fledgling limb tied up & coaxed into prominence. But, NEVER, was it cut down & replaced by a new tree UNTIL Bugnini decided to “remove anything that could prove to be a stumbling block for our separated brethren” & those filled with the “spirit of Vatican II” not only followed his lead but expanded on it.

You do realize that the Novus Ordo is meant to be prayed with BOTH the vernaculur & Latin. That Gregorian Chant is supposed to be given “pride of place”, that EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers are supposed to be used only in EXTRAordinary circumstances, that Communion on the Tongue is supposed to be the norm, that altar girls were approved by indult, etc., etc??? The Mass celebrated today isn’t even the true Novus Ordo. Perhaps if it were, the movement back to traditional Catholicism wouldn’t be so painful for so many of you.

ihmhermitage.stblogs.com/2008/06/01/mass-of-the-ages/

"The Latin Tridentine Mass is truly the Mass of the ages. Its development is a series of links in an unbroken chain beginning with the very first mass given by Christ 2,000 years ago when He commanded us to partake of His body and blood in His memory. Beginning with that fateful evening, on every single one of the over 700,000 days that has since passed, this has been done millions of times for billions of people just as He asked.

On a spiritual level, the blessings from God to His children through the Mass are immeasurable. On a temporal level, the humanity altering results of the Mass cannot be denied nor overstated. Without its catalytic influence civilization of the world as we know it would not have been possible. It has seeded the conversion of countless souls to Christianity and has spawned literally every modern Christian service in existance. Its mystery and beauty has been the inspiration of artists, leaders, and saints great and small alike.

The Traditional Latin Mass of today is the traditional Latin Mass of yesterday. It has remained mostly unchanged since the Council of Trent five centuries ago and it is rich with history and culture. Certain elements are derived from Jewish customs dating back to before our Lord walked the earth. Other parts are the result of works of the Church fathers, saints and popes - such as Saint Gregory who insituted the Kyrie Eleison and the sacred chant during his papacy. The vestments, (the clothing the priest wears) have changed little since they were developed - mostly during Roman empire.

What has been described as “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven” continues as it always has. May God’s great blessings be with you and yours always."

 

[pprimeau1976]

I come from a family torn between ardent SSPX members and 4 married in-laws and spouses recently converted to the RCC. neither side is even willing to go to the others’ Mass, which akes it quite difficult during family reunions.

I seem to be the only one willing to go both ways, but neither way really inspires.

To me what the RCC seems to need is a new Mass. One that adheres much more stringently to the Traditional views, but still is one that allows participation.

I don’t want to do away with the TLM, but we need a Mass format that allows and incourages lay participation (in the way of responding to prayers, singing, etc, not distribution Communion), I do not think however that we need to keep the N.O.

We need something inbetween the arch-conservative and the extreme liberal versions of the Mass, if not in place of the N.O. In my honost opinion, the Traditional Mass translated to the vernacular, and prayed aloud would be great.

What say you?

God Bless.

So the Catholic Church should come up with yet another mass for the Latin Rite because of a petty family squabble? I had an in-law that was Greek Orthodox and for the sake of family unity, I would go to mass twice if I was ever invited to attend her Sunday Divine Liturgy. Now, that was with two Churches that were not in communion.

I understand the status of the SSPX is fuzzy, but the question is whether you are fulfilling the Sunday obligation. The Church has said that the Ordinary Form fulfills the Sunday obligation,so if a Catholic refuses to go to another Catholic mass (or Divine Liturgy if you’re Eastern Catholic) the only reason is because they don’t find it personally fufilling.

 

[malphono]

Excuse my “ignorance”. I am of the Roman rite and unfamiliar with the breakaway rites. The Tridentine Mass was codified at the Council of Trent having developed organically since the first Christians began saying Mass. The NO was launched in April 1969. My reference to the term “Mass of the ages” applies to the distinction between the two. The Tridentine Mass is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. The NO is highlighted by clowns, super soakers, liturgical dance, laity ‘participation’, dwindling attendence and adherence to doctrine.

I think we all know what the EF is and what the OF is. Personally, in the Roman Rite I assist at the EF.

But I take exception to the use of the term “breakaway rites.” Whereas I learned to deal with the misnomer “Mass of the ages,” I find the term “breakaway rites” quite insulting.

Please be careful how you refer to ecclesiastical traditions that are not of the Roman Rite.

The ancient and venerable liturgies of the various Eastern and Oriental Churches are, and have always been, of equal dignity with that of the Latin church.

In the West, the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Carthusian, Dominican, Cistercian, and Carmelite usages all predate Trent. There is nothing “breakaway” about them either.

 

[Ockham]

My intention was not to insult you, but perhaps my word selection could have been wiser had it not been for your use of the word “ignorant”.

The word “catholic” is synonymous with “universal”. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Catholics attended the same Mass?

Not everyone knows the difference between the EF and OF. After nearly forty years I have just discovered the Tridentine Mass and much of our heritage pre-Vatican II. If there is anything to see red about it is the protestantization of the Church.

It’s admirable you serve at the EF. I’m currently learning liturgical Latin.

 

[KestrelRose]

I come from a family torn between ardent SSPX members and 4 married in-laws and spouses recently converted to the RCC. neither side is even willing to go to the others’ Mass, which akes it quite difficult during family reunions.

I seem to be the only one willing to go both ways, but neither way really inspires.

To me what the RCC seems to need is a new Mass. One that adheres much more stringently to the Traditional views, but still is one that allows participation.

I don’t want to do away with the TLM, but we need a Mass format that allows and incourages lay participation (in the way of responding to prayers, singing, etc, not distribution Communion), I do not think however that we need to keep the N.O.

We need something inbetween the arch-conservative and the extreme liberal versions of the Mass, if not in place of the N.O. In my honost opinion, the Traditional Mass translated to the vernacular, and prayed aloud would be great.

What say you?

God Bless.

My first reaction to this was: “You got to be kidding!!!”

After calming down abit it will simply state that this would not be a good idea because then we would have a three way argument rather than this difficult two way argument.

I am grateful that our Pope has given us the abilitiy to participate in both forms. Surely we can learn to appreciate what is beautiful in both and use both to edify each other rather than allowing what is so beautiful in our faith divide us.

Since you are obviously caught in the middle of a difficult family struggle perhaps you may be able to make peace by attending Mass with each side of the family. The peace in your family needs to be restored and you can be the gentle hands to resolve this. Know this: God loves your family and wants healing to take place.

 

[malphono]

My intention was not to insult you, but perhaps my word selection could have been wiser had it not been for your use of the word “ignorant”.

When I said “…speakers were generally ignorant of anything beyond the Latin Rite…” the word was used strictly in the sense of “unknowing” or “unaware” and not as a pejorative. Sorry if it was taken the wrong way.

Ockham:

The word “catholic” is synonymous with “universal”. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Catholics attended the same Mass?

Actually no, I don’t think so. To me, the unity in diversity is wonderful. PP Pius XI often referred to the Eastern and Oriental liturgies as the “jewels in the crown” of the Church.

Ockham:

Not everyone knows the difference between the EF and OF. After nearly forty years I have just discovered the Tridentine Mass and much of our heritage pre-Vatican II. If there is anything to see red about it is the protestantization of the Church.

It’s admirable you serve at the EF. I’m currently learning liturgical Latin.

I knew the EF in pre-conciliar days, and met up with the OF in 1969. The OF and I were never on friendly terms. Anyway, I see Summorum Pontificum as a great blessing! The welcome unfettering of the EF is something that I never thought I’d see.