A New Mass Is Needed

[bkovacs]

A new Mass isn’t needed. Roman Catholics just need to rediscover the history and traditional spirituality of their church. If anything, get rid of the Paul VI Mass (Novus Ordo) and bring back the TLM as the Ordinary as well as the spirituality. I attend an Orthodox Church, and there is no problem whats so ever with people wanting a new Divine Liturgy or lack of understanding of the spirituality of the East. Since it hasn’t changed much in over a thousand years. The Divine Liturgies as well as the Tridentine Mass are ancient liturgies. Only the Pauline Mass is modern. Of course the Divine Liturgies are both in Greek, Slavonic, and vernacular. Most Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic priests understand Greek. The ancient language of the Byzantine Rite and Liturgies. Unlike Roman Catholic priests, who most barely understand a bit of Latin. The language of the Tridentine Mass and Roman Rite. Even the Oriental Orthodox use ancient Liturgies, and use Aramahic, as well as Greek and Hebrew. And they understand what they are saying.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Honestly I think the way the masses are done at EWTN would be sort of a middle of between TLM and NO. Call me crazy, but EWTN masses seem to be a good fit and wish more places were like them.

 

[malphono]

Honestly I think the way the masses are done at EWTN would be sort of a middle of between TLM and NO. Call me crazy, but EWTN masses seem to be a good fit and wish more places were like them.

From what I know, the Masses on EWTN are OF and are more-or-less “by the book” but not quite “reform of the reform.” I’ve not seen it done ad orientem or all in Latin, nor have I heard the Propers sung. (I’m not a regular viewer – I don’t have cable and even so, from what I know first hand, some cable systems have moved EWTN to the “upper tier” that is only available with a higher-cost digital subscription – so I could be mistaken about some of that.) That’s not to say their offerings are unpleasant, but to me – and this is strictly a personal opinion – it’s still the regular US-style OF, albeit more agreeable than what is available in most parish churches.

OTOH, I’ve heard on good authority that some of the priests have been (are being?) trained in the EF through the good offices of the Canons Regular of S John Cantius. That may mean televised EF or at least a true “reform of the reform” OF celebration, is in the offing. One can always hope.

 

[tobinatorstark]

From what I know, the Masses on EWTN are OF and are more-or-less “by the book” but not quite “reform of the reform.” I’ve not seen it done ad orientem or all in Latin, nor have I heard the Propers sung. (I’m not a regular viewer – I don’t have cable and even so, from what I know first hand, some cable systems have moved EWTN to the “upper tier” that is only available with a higher-cost digital subscription – so I could be mistaken about some of that.) That’s not to say their offerings are unpleasant, but to me – and this is strictly a personal opinion – it’s still the regular US-style OF, albeit more agreeable than what is available in most parish churches.

OTOH, I’ve heard on good authority that some of the priests have been (are being?) trained in the EF through the good offices of the Canons Regular of S John Cantius. That may mean televised EF or at least a true “reform of the reform” OF celebration, is in the offing. One can always hope.

I am a regular viewer of the Daily mass and I like what I see. The only times I have seen masses not in English are those conducted by the Pope at the Vatican. They may not be the EF. If some are being trained in the EF that would really nice. I would love to hear an all Latin mass on a Sunday on EWTN. Usually on Sundays they do the Gloria and Nicene Creed in Latin, but don’t do either on weekdays. It has allowed me to see a different side of mass. My parish has no Latin in it except and occasional Agnus Dei. Nor do many genuflect before receiving. 99% of the people in my parish bow and receive by hand. I however like to receive by tongue and will not go back to receiving by hand because of certain graces received after making the step to receive by tongue. Also the alter servers on EWTN do somethings different than the Adult servers at my parish. I do think eventually that an EF will be televised by a “regular” priest on EWTN. Growing up in a completely NO mass, EWTN is somewhat of a change for me and I wish my parish would be more like EWTN masses.

 

[bkovacs]

The EWTN Mass is still the Novus Ordo. The TLM is ancient and more beautiful in my opinion.

 

[Timothysis]

I however like to receive by tongue and will not go back to receiving by hand because of certain graces received after making the step to receive by tongue.

Are there any sources for this interesting statement?

 

[Timothysis]

Unity and diversity are not synonymous.

You believe as you pray. It’s no coincidence the percentage of Cathlics believing in the Real Presence declined after the NO. The liturgy is very much a matter of faith. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a recreation of Calvary. The NO makes it more of a supper with Christ’s body and blood being symbols rather than fact.

We don’t need a new Mass. If anything we need one less.

I don’t know how I missed this one.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a recreation of Calvary.

Actually, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a perpetuation of Calvary, not a “recreation,” and also a memorial;

“*Indeed the Mass is a memorial, but that is not a lessening of tradition or scripture. Jesus told his apostles “Do this as a memorial of Me”. The term memorial (or “anamnesis” in the Greek) means that when the priest utters the words of consecration, he brings about or represents the same mystery which Christ brought about at the Last Supper on "the night before He suffered.” The one sacrifice of the Cross is thus rendered present, though in an unbloody manner, and the divine Victim of the Cross is both offerer and offered in the Church’s liturgical rite . *

The NO makes it more of a supper with Christ’s body and blood being symbols rather than fact.

Symbols??? Really??? Does that include Eucharistic prayer I, the Roman Rite, too (be careful with your answer or you will totally negate the Tridentine Mass )? Or Eucharistic prayer II, which is based on the ancient prayer of St. Hippolytus from the 3rd century? Or even Eucharistic prayer III which states:

"And so, Father, we bring you these gifts. We ask you to make them holy by the power of your Spirit, that they may become the body and blood of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate this eucharist. "

It’s no coincidence the percentage of Cathlics believing in the Real Presence declined after the NO.

Is it because of the Pauline Mass or that people were just not being taught their faith properly???

 

[tobinatorstark]

Are there any sources for this interesting statement?

What I need sources saying that I received the Holy Spirit present in a certain way???

 

[Timothysis]

Are there any sources for this interesting statement?

What I need sources saying that I received the Holy Spirit present in a certain way???

You said "I…will not go back to receiving by hand because of certain graces received after making the step to receive by tongue."

I have never heard of extra or “certain” graces dispensed because of receiving on the tongue. Do you have some kind of source information that describes this interesting concept?

 

[tobinatorstark]

You said “I…will not go back to receiving by hand because of certain graces received after making the step to receive by tongue.”

I have never heard of extra or “certain” graces dispensed because of receiving on the tongue. Do you have some kind of source information that describes this interesting concept?

you want some biblical proof that I receive the Holy Spirit in a Eucharist setting when I pray in Latin??? There is just things that happened when the Holy Spirit is present. One can’t explain the meaning what the the Holy Spirit is trying to say. The Holy Water from when I walk in feels like there is blood on my head. I feel like I am being fed the Body of Christ before actually receiving the Eucharist and break out in rashes during mass for no apparent reason. These events started happening after I started receiving by tongue for the first time.

 

[Timothysis]

you want some biblical proof that I receive the Holy Spirit in a Eucharist setting when I pray in Latin??? There is just things that happened when the Holy Spirit is present. One can’t explain the meaning what the the Holy Spirit is trying to say. The Holy Water from when I walk in feels like there is blood on my head. I feel like I am being fed the Body of Christ before actually receiving the Eucharist and break out in rashes during mass for no apparent reason. These events started happening after I started receiving by tongue for the first time.

Okie dokie.

 

[Ockham]

Is it because of the Pauline Mass or that people were just not being taught their faith properly???

This is a much simpler issue than you are making it out to be. The changes the NO adopted are Protestant measures. The Catholic Church, founded by Christ making St. Peter the first pope changed its Mass towards a religion founded 1,500 years later by a disturbed monk.

 

[bkovacs]

This is a much simpler issue than you are making it out to be. The changes the NO adopted are Protestant measures. The Catholic Church, founded by Christ making St. Peter the first pope changed its Mass towards a religion founded 1,500 years later by a disturbed monk.

Oh my god this priest is turning his back to the people, and where are the laity to distribute communion. And no guitars!. They need a new Mass!. No lay participation!.

youtube.com/watch?v=ebdZLfFmnss

This looks like a TLM, but it’s a little different. Still ad-orientum

Actually this is also, like the TLM an ancient liturgy. From the Coptic Orthodox Church.

 

[ProVobis]

"On July 4, 1976, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship unequivocally declared: “The Protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.”

It is really difficult to picture six (out of seven) individuals in any committee being allowed no (name removed by moderator)ut throughout the several years of meetings.

Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence, Transubstantiation or the Mass as a Sacrifice.

Actually Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation, and I’m willing to bet most Catholics today wouldn’t know the difference or know that the Mass is a sacrifice. Maybe because the OF appears to be more of a commemoration event or a Meal?

 

[Ockham]

Of course it is mere coincidence there were six Protestant ministers on the committee and it produced a “protestantized” Mass.

I’d love it if the protest were called over and the faithful returned home. We redesigned a centuries old tradition to accommodate their return to no avail. It’s time to call the experiment a failure, the “spirit of Vatican II” lifted, the age of Aquarius concluded, and restore our proper heritage. Perhaps that is what it’ll take to bring the lost sheep back into the herd.

 

[Timothysis]

This is a much simpler issue than you are making it out to be.

To you, perhaps. You have not produced anything of value to show that things are as you maintain them to be. If the issue is indeed “much simpler,” then why don’t you demonstrate it?

The changes the NO adopted are Protestant measures.

Asked and answered.

The Catholic Church, founded by Christ making St. Peter the first pope changed its Mass towards a religion founded 1,500 years later by a disturbed monk.

“The Catholic Church, founded by Christ making St. Peter the first pope” exercised the office and authority of the pope when it “changed,” instituted or mandated a renewal of the liturgy that was promulgated in the Missal of Pope Paul VI. Whether you like it or not is your personal preference but I find it odd that the liturgy of the Mass as celebrated by no less than four popes has been declared by you, with all of your relevant authority, to be protestant. Are you so bold as to say that the Mass celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI is protestant? Does that make the pope protestant, or at least not fully Catholic?

 

[Timothysis]

It is really difficult to picture six (out of seven) individuals in any committee being allowed no (name removed by moderator)ut throughout the several years of meetings.

It is my understanding that they were “observers,” much like those protestants who were observers at the council of Trent. In any event, I am willing to take the word of the office of Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship on the matter.

Actually Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation, and I’m willing to bet most Catholics today wouldn’t know the difference

Agreed.

or know that the Mass is a sacrifice. Maybe because the OF appears to be more of a commemoration event or a Meal?

This is said quite frequently but , in my personal research, the more you read the Eucharistic prayers the more plain the sacrifice becomes. I think that it is one of those issues where one has to know beforehand for what they are searching. Again I think that a large portion of the blame can be laid at the horrible teaching of the catechism for the past decades.

 

[Timothysis]

Of course it is mere coincidence there were six Protestant ministers on the committee and it produced a “protestantized” Mass.

In case you missed it before, I will state it again: "On July 4, 1976, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship unequivocally declared: “The Protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.”

 

[Ockham]

To you, perhaps. You have not produced anything of value to show that things are as you maintain them to be. If the issue is indeed “much simpler,” then why don’t you demonstrate it?

What do you need demonstrated? Try this exercise: compare the Tridentine Mass, a Lutheran whatever they call it, and the NO Mass. Keep the two that look most similar to each other. What does that tell you?

 

[Timothysis]

What do you need demonstrated? Try this exercise: compare the Tridentine Mass, a Lutheran whatever they call it, and the NO Mass. Keep the two that look most similar to each other. What does that tell you?

This tells me that you really have nothing left.

If I compare Eucharistic prayer I of the Pauline Mass with the Eucharistic prayer of the Tridentine, they are the same prayer. Does that mean I get to keep both the Tridentine and the Pauline???