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ProVobis
Guest
But who reads at Mass these days?
To be fair, though, not everyone reads at an EF either.
No doubt. But what did you have as a basis? The Mass is the focal point of our Catholic faith, is it not?
- Status
To be fair, though, not everyone reads at an EF either.
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thunderballs75
Guest
I think the only new mass that is needed is the old one + catechesis.
I think the addition of the pax and the people being allowed to sing were the good things about the N.O. The peace was done in the early Church, so it was good to restore it. But it should probably be done before mass so as not to interrupt, and so it can’t be turned into a party.
The universal language of the Latin Rite was lost, which is a shame. Now I cannot pray in the same language if I went to France, or Brazil, or India, or Congo. This also allows for mistranslations, such as “for many” vs. “for all”. I know this may sound very cruel, but the sad truth is that not ALL are saved. We know this. We know there are evil people in this world.
You cannot say it is impossible to learn the Latin, because I understand every part of the ordinary of the Mass, and then some. And there typically are small translation booklets which help if people are willing to take a little of their time to study them. Just because some are lazy for their salvation and to worship their Creator, doesn’t mean the Church should change the Mass for them.
This is only a small amount of the complaints I have with the new Mass. But we’ll have to let God the Holy Spirit decide. God bless.
I think the addition of the pax and the people being allowed to sing were the good things about the N.O. The peace was done in the early Church, so it was good to restore it. But it should probably be done before mass so as not to interrupt, and so it can’t be turned into a party.
The universal language of the Latin Rite was lost, which is a shame. Now I cannot pray in the same language if I went to France, or Brazil, or India, or Congo. This also allows for mistranslations, such as “for many” vs. “for all”. I know this may sound very cruel, but the sad truth is that not ALL are saved. We know this. We know there are evil people in this world.
You cannot say it is impossible to learn the Latin, because I understand every part of the ordinary of the Mass, and then some. And there typically are small translation booklets which help if people are willing to take a little of their time to study them. Just because some are lazy for their salvation and to worship their Creator, doesn’t mean the Church should change the Mass for them.
This is only a small amount of the complaints I have with the new Mass. But we’ll have to let God the Holy Spirit decide. God bless.
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Ockham
Guest
Answer the previous question. Which two of the three match most closely?This tells me that you really have nothing left.
If I compare Eucharistic prayer I of the Pauline Mass with the Eucharistic prayer of the Tridentine, they are the same prayer. Does that mean I get to keep both the Tridentine and the Pauline???
It’s not an endurance test or who has more bits of information stowed away.
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Timothysis
Guest
I actually meant reading/studying outside of Mass.
I attended public school starting in the 70’s and went to catechism class on Tuesday afternoons at the Church until I entered middle school. Then, we attended catechism at the teachers house. All I can remember was a lot of meaningless talk which neither educated me on the faith nor instilled in me a desire to know or understand what the Church believes. It wasn’t until my 20’s that the questions started coming to me in a serious manner and thanks to going to St. Agnes with mom and dad one Ash Wednesday I saw how different the Mass celebrated there was compared to what I was used to. While many here have labeled me a “liberal” I actually hold strongly to the traditions and beliefs of the Church. I have only been to one EF and was totally lost. Of course, I had a misunderstanding of how to participate. If I were to go again I would have to study the missal (my mom’s old one) first to better understand things but I must simply say that I like and appreciate the Pauline Mass that I attend. I understand that, unfortunately, not all Masses are celebrated as they should be, but here I have two good parishes (and I’m sure many more) where I can attend a reverent, holy Mass. I have nothing at all against the EF and I hope to see it thrive in the future, since it is such a strong aspect of our Catholic Tradition, but I also think that there is room for the OF, too.
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whatevergirl
Guest
I agree with this post. I think that it was relatively the way the OP describes when I was a kid. (back in late 70’s…into early 80’s) I have noticed a seriously noticeable difference between the parishes of up north, and Florida…I just have no idea what is going on down here, but I have never seen so many parishes that are rather irreverent, with no kneelers…Father Corapi talked about such parishes, and it wasn’t pleasant.
Thankfully, we found a parish that is reverent with kneelers, and no abuses. It has been the best blessing since we arrived to Florida!
So, I don’t think we need a new mass, I just think that there are some parishes that are trying to turn mass into something else. It’s deeply troubling to me. Our youth of today is getting a watered down version of the traditional mass. Sad.
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Timothysis
Guest
While I have no access to a Lutheran missal nor a desire to look one up, I will say that Eucharistic prayer I in the Pauline Missal matches very closely to the Eucharistic prayer in the Tridentine, which isn’t surprising since Eucharistic prayer I is subtitled the Roman Canon!
As far as Eucharistic prayer II-IV, I will ask you to read them and tell me what is protestant in them.
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Ockham
Guest
How can you claim such expertise on this subject then? Perhaps you should research the Lutheran service to broaden your perspective.
I’m not trying to pick any chat room fights or anything. I’m actually quite surprised someone with your intelligence can’t see what I do. The protestanization of the Catholic Mass seems self-evident to anyone who lifts their head out of the sand.
You are in the minority. Most Catholics I’ve talked to don’t think of Mass as a sacrifice. The indicators point out most don’t believe in transubstantation. After experiencing and learning about the Tridentine Mass I can now understand why.
I’m not trying to pick any chat room fights or anything. I’m actually quite surprised someone with your intelligence can’t see what I do. The protestanization of the Catholic Mass seems self-evident to anyone who lifts their head out of the sand.
You are in the minority. Most Catholics I’ve talked to don’t think of Mass as a sacrifice. The indicators point out most don’t believe in transubstantation. After experiencing and learning about the Tridentine Mass I can now understand why.
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thunderballs75
Guest
I agree with you sir!
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Timothysis
Guest
Perhaps I will.
But isn’t that a very prejudiced and judgmental thing to say? On what other subjects and opinions would anyone dare say “if you would only pull your head out of the sand?” The sedevacanists would say the same to us; should we then subscribe to their point of view?
I actually agree with you here. The great thing about the Tridentine is that one must immerse themselves in the classic traditions of the Church to fully comprehend and appreciate the Truths of the Mass as contained in the TLM. The same can be found in the Pauline Mass, too, though it takes a bit more excavation to find it. This is one of the areas in which I believe the Pauline Mass to be deficient. Hopefully, the new translations which are coming soon and much needed teaching from the pulpit will reveal the traditional beliefs of the Church to everyone. In some cases, it seems that things will have to start over with square one; a very, very sad consequence of the past 40 years.
Please know, though, that I am not opposed to Tradition or the Tidentine Mass in any way (even though I’ve been labeled a “liberal” by some here) but I do get tired of the constant bashing of the Pauline Mass by the “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” types (not directed at you).
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bkovacs
Guest
Oh my god this priest is turning his back to the people and where are the altar girls. This is like the old Latin Mass.
youtube.com/watch?v=CpLLJfpde-k
Armenian Church Sunday liturgy. Another ancient Liturgy. Beautiful isn’t it.
youtube.com/watch?v=CpLLJfpde-k
Armenian Church Sunday liturgy. Another ancient Liturgy. Beautiful isn’t it.
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bkovacs
Guest
Another ancient Liturgy
youtube.com/watch?v=thOUFBpHqhI
The Tridentine Liturgy. See how the reverence and sacredness are more similar to the Eastern Liturgies than the new modern day Pauline Mass.
youtube.com/watch?v=thOUFBpHqhI
The Tridentine Liturgy. See how the reverence and sacredness are more similar to the Eastern Liturgies than the new modern day Pauline Mass.
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Timothysis
Guest
And your point is…???
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Timothysis
Guest
I’ve read here time and time again that the Mass is NOT for our entertainment but for the perpetuation of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. And yet, I get the feeling that you prefer these older liturgies because it seems to placate a certain sense of religious “entertainment” for you, more of a desire for the old than for the efficacy of the present. While reverence is certainly something that we have control over, sacredness is something that is present in the act itself, and so the Pauline Mass certainly fulfills this aspect.
Tell me, if you were to find yourself in a recently built Church that lacks the eye splendor of the older style, would you treat the presence of Christ in the tabernacle with any less reverence than if you were in some 1,000 year old church?
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bkovacs
Guest
Well considering that I go to an Orthodox church I doubt I would ever be in one without at least Icons, Candles, and Chant. And NO it’s not entertainment for me!. It’s about dignified worship, and similarities.
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CradleCath
Guest
Thank you for sharing your feelings & your background as a Catholic. We Traditionalists…of all people…should understand how you feel about the “my Mass is better” issue. We have lived through almost 50 yrs. of criticism of the Mass that we love, so we have no excuse for not realizing how it makes you feel when the Novus Ordo is criticized.
I, for instance, have heard about the "priest that mumbles, the old ladies that pray their rosary, the use of a ‘foreign language’, etc. ETC., for way too long. AND I’ve not been privileged to have access to a Novus Ordo Mass that was prayed with reverence & beauty. (Well, I did for 8 months time, during this past 40 yrs…but the priest that said that Mass soon vanished.)
You are obviously one who takes the Catholic faith seriously. However, you must realize that many who bash the Tridentine Mass are also iffy on the very doctrines of the Church…artificial contraception, abortion, multiple marriages, etc…& they are very vocal with their rejection of anything traditional.
I believe that the “freeing up” of the TLM., will discourage the abuses that I’ve lived through while attending the N.O. for so many years…but, it will take time. Until then, I believe that a certain amount of bickering will occur between Catholics. However, I think that right now there is a need in the Church for both forms of the Mass & that we should try to understand the serious Catholics on both sides of the spectrum.
I will admit to a certain amount of bitterness regarding the treatment I’ve endured & the abuses I’ve seen for so long & I’m trying to get over that, as it eats away at the soul. It’s hard, though, when I think of the homily I heard on the feast of the Holy Family urging me to pray for homosexual “families” that they may be “accepted” by society…when I was told, from the pulpit, that there was no need for “formal” confession anymore…as we were absolved from our sin during the Mass, &, most of all, following Vatican II…the death of the order of nuns that I held in such high esteem. Pray for me & I’ll do the same for you.
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ProVobis
Guest
Better to be lost than misdirected. When people bring up “gifts” at the O.F. Offertory, then when the words “our sacrifice” is mentioned, it is easy to make the connection that we are the ones making the sacrifice.
I’m glad you see the Truth, though.
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whatevergirl
Guest
For me, it has nothing to do with ‘how’ a building looks…Mass could take place in a shack, but the problem here in Florida, for example, is turning mass into entertainment. It is as though the Catholic Diocese here thinks it needs to dumb down things, or remove reverence…otherwise, maybe people will leave the faith or that parish or whatever. The Catholic Church is a beautiful faith, filled with majestic traditions, and the blessed Sacraments. I’m not against change, but to change it into something it was never intended to be…entertainment, is really wrong, in my eyes.
People weren’t dancing around and clapping at the foot of the Cross during Christ’s death, nor were they doing that when He rose. Yes, we are to be joyful Christians, but not without solemnity for what has taken place in history–the sacrifice of our Lord.I feel especially sad for our youth, that there is so much rock style music and nonsense, and fluff, that these teens don’t know what it means to pray on kneelers…to worship Christ as I did as a teenager…to really contemplate all He means to them…why? Because they are distracted by bongo drums, electric guitars…someone along the lines thought that teens can’t handle the Truth, or can’t pray or can’t be reverent…well they need to be taught that, and have it show in our faith community. It’s as though ‘someone’ said…let’s create mass into something ‘modern’ and ‘stimulating,’ because if we don’t…we will lose our youth. That’s not why Catholics leave the Church. My son who is very much a ‘normal typical teenager,’ is 16 yrs old…said that he doesn’t understand why they think that teens want to hear that ‘stuff.’ Since switching parishes to a much more traditional and simple one (the mass takes place in a funeral home right now until the building is complete) he said…I can finally feel like I’m being taught something about the Bible, our faith…I finally feel like I’m taken seriously as a teen, and not that they have to play music because I’m too stupid to understand mass.
Out of the mouths of babes.
I am not a legalist. I just feel that as we continue to reinvent mass, as a society, we really get away from what the faith was built upon…it is built upon Christ. Not a music minister, or a choir…or a band…but Christ. I am SO grateful we found this new parish, and have found somewhat of a traditional mass again.
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Ockham
Guest
Two quick stories…
A few years ago my parents, sister and I traveled to Montreal. While there we wanted to see Notre Dame cathedral. It is a beautiful church, so much so there are daily tours. We scheduled our visit to coincide with Mass. Of course it was a NO Mass in the venacular…French. We don’t speak French so although we knew what was going on we couldn’t “participate” and were excluded, basically tourists inside our own Church.
My father-in-law emigrated from war-torn Germany as a young boy. His parents started sending their children to Canada soon after the war and as quickly as they could afford it, one by one. He arrived on a Friday, made contact with his older brother and spent the next day getting organized. He said it was a very emotional and frightening time; didn’t know much English, most things here were very different then back home, he missed home especially his family…you get the idea. Anyway, Sunday morning the two boys went to Mass - the same Mass he attended the previous week in Germany. He said he felt at home and that although the future would be challenging at least he had the Church.
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Ockham
Guest
Have you made your concerns known to the priest? Written the bishop?
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whatevergirl
Guest
I am going to, I decided that, over the weekend. But…suppose the Bishop comes back with…we are not doing anything that is not permitted. I actually sent an email to the priest of the last parish, as to why ‘his’ parish had no kneelers. He explained that was the Bishop’s decision when the building was under construction.
That being said, the ‘new’ parish we are attending, is part of his Diocese, and is completely reverent, and such a blessing. I feel people are more alive and awake ironically at this mass, than at the previous parish’s mass–with all the bells and whistles that they feel they need to do to get people’s attention. People are thirsting for the Truth, if we can’t get it from our very own Catholic parishes, where can we look for it?I don’t expect to see change over night…but I just think it’s about time we as individual parishioners start speaking up about the damage this type of thing is doing to our faith communities, and mass.
It’s starts with us.- Status