A New Mass Is Needed

[Ockham]

Here’s a podcast Father Z made just after the SP in 2007. In the second half he presents a homily he gave comparing the Tridentine and NO Mass. Give it a listen if you haven’t already.

wdtprs.com/blog/2008/06/msgr-guido-marini-communion-kneeling-and-on-the-tongue-will-be-the-standard-for-papal-masses/

 

[kermitz06]

Wow, I am out of town for the weekend and the thread explodes.

To clarify my OP, I didnt want a third Mass, what I suggested was that the NO be made more like the TLM, in that it was much more reverent etc, yet celebrated in the vernacular is wished.

That is the tough place MANY people I know are in, they want a Mass that isn’t a community meeting with a small band, oh yeah and Communion too. We want a Catholic Mass as well as a catholic Mass. We are disgusted with teh decay of the NO to the sad state that so many parishes are in, currently my family is church-hopping to find a priest that doest preach heresy, and actually seems to believe that the Body and Blood of Christ deserve at least a little reverence and respect.

Someone here said it well, instead of the NO, we shoudl just have the option to say the TLM in the vernacular.

God Bless!

 

[kermitz06]

AND I’ve not been privileged to have access to a Novus Ordo Mass that was prayed with reverence & beauty. (Well, I did for 8 months time, during this past 40 yrs…but the priest that said that Mass soon vanished.)

Pray for me & I’ll do the same for you.

I have to say, that is exactly what I am going through, along with much of my family and friends. Which is ultimately why they went to SSPX, it was more that they had no where else to turn, but ended up as so much more.

Prayers.

God Bless!

 

[thunderballs75]

Wow, I am out of town for the weekend and the thread explodes.

To clarify my OP, I didnt want a third Mass, what I suggested was that the NO be made more like the TLM, in that it was much more reverent etc, yet celebrated in the vernacular is wished.

That is the tough place MANY people I know are in, they want a Mass that isn’t a community meeting with a small band, oh yeah and Communion too. We want a Catholic Mass as well as a catholic Mass. We are disgusted with teh decay of the NO to the sad state that so many parishes are in, currently my family is church-hopping to find a priest that doest preach heresy, and actually seems to believe that the Body and Blood of Christ deserve at least a little reverence and respect.

Someone here said it well, instead of the NO, we shoudl just have the option to say the TLM in the vernacular.

God Bless!

I have to disagree mister. I think the Mass should be sad in Latin always. People should be given catechism so that they learn. There are typically missalettes also. Latin was the universal language of the Church for 1500 years. I could pray in the same language in any country. And there is no room for “mistranslations” because the same words and teachings are preserved forever. Take care.

 

[thunderballs75]

Two quick stories…

A few years ago my parents, sister and I traveled to Montreal. While there we wanted to see Notre Dame cathedral. It is a beautiful church, so much so there are daily tours. We scheduled our visit to coincide with Mass. Of course it was a NO Mass in the venacular…French. We don’t speak French so although we knew what was going on we couldn’t “participate” and were excluded, basically tourists inside our own Church.

My father-in-law emigrated from war-torn Germany as a young boy. His parents started sending their children to Canada soon after the war and as quickly as they could afford it, one by one. He arrived on a Friday, made contact with his older brother and spent the next day getting organized. He said it was a very emotional and frightening time; didn’t know much English, most things here were very different then back home, he missed home especially his family…you get the idea. Anyway, Sunday morning the two boys went to Mass - the same Mass he attended the previous week in Germany. He said he felt at home and that although the future would be challenging at least he had the Church.

This is exactly what I mean! God bless.

 

[malphono]

To clarify my OP, I didnt want a third Mass, what I suggested was that the NO be made more like the TLM, in that it was much more reverent etc, yet celebrated in the vernacular is wished. …

Someone here said it well, instead of the NO, we shoudl just have the option to say the TLM in the vernacular.

For the sake of economy, I won’t repeat what I said [post=4910144]earlier[/post] in this thread. Suffice it to say here that the approach suggested above was tried and sort of backfired in 1965: the ultimate result was the OF as seen today, and the de facto suppression of the Missal of 1962 for 40+ years.

A great many people have prayed, hoped, and worked hard for the restoration of the “old” Missal. It finally became reality with Summorum Pontificum, and trust me when I say those same people, plus many others who have since come to understand and appreciate the EF for what it is, would not be too thrilled to have it taken away again.

There’s a small thread in another CAF forum [thread=318469]here[/thread] about the “reform of the reform” which might be of interest. PP Benedict XVI seems to hope that the coexistence of the two forms can lead to organic development and enrichment. Perhaps that’s what the “reform of the reform” is all about.

 

[kermitz06]

I have to disagree mister. I think the Mass should be sad in Latin always. People should be given catechism so that they learn. There are typically missalettes also. Latin was the universal language of the Church for 1500 years. I could pray in the same language in any country. And there is no room for “mistranslations” because the same words and teachings are preserved forever. Take care.

I agree with you actually, I would prefer to have the Mass exclusively in Latin, I understand it, I get it. re-making the N.O. would essentially be a move in that direction.

For my wife who is a recent convert from Southern Baptist it will take years, decades if ever for her to learn Latin, I understand because I grew up with it. get my drift?

God Bless!

 

[kermitz06]

There’s a small thread in another CAF forum [thread=318469]here[/thread] about the “reform of the reform” which might be of interest. PP Benedict XVI seems to hope that the coexistence of the two forms can lead to organic development and enrichment. Perhaps that’s what the “reform of the reform” is all about.

Thanks for the link, that is kind of my wish, but it goes much further than that. I always seem to alienate someone when I mention making the N.O. more like the TLM, either someone doesnt think the N.O. should be changed, or they think that anything other that the TLM in current form is the only way ever, end of story.

I am stuck between a rock and beach, one way stays the same refusing ardently to ever change, the other can’t stay constant ever.

 

[thunderballs75]

I agree with you actually, I would prefer to have the Mass exclusively in Latin, I understand it, I get it. re-making the N.O. would essentially be a move in that direction.

For my wife who is a recent convert from Southern Baptist it will take years, decades if ever for her to learn Latin, I understand because I grew up with it. get my drift?

God Bless!

I can see what you’re saying, and I don’t mean this in a rude way at all, but to me that isn’t a problem. This is because I have only been Catholic for 2 years and I have only been going to the TLM for about 8 months. Before that I was an atheist and didn’t have any religious upbringing at all. In fact, I’d say that your wife would has advantage over me! It just takes a little bit of effort. I think better instruction (particularly RCIA) could educate people in this area as well. Peace brother!

 

[Ockham]

I can see what you’re saying, and I don’t mean this in a rude way at all, but to me that isn’t a problem. This is because I have only been Catholic for 2 years and I have only been going to the TLM for about 8 months. Before that I was an atheist and didn’t have any religious upbringing at all. In fact, I’d say that your wife would has advantage over me! It just takes a little bit of effort. I think better instruction (particularly RCIA) could educate people in this area as well. Peace brother!

Welcome aboard!

Kermitz, I feel your pain. I just discovered the Tridentine Mass last autumn having grown up post Vatican II and no Latin knowledge. My 1962 Missal is a great help along with the many internet sites on the subject.

The NO Mass seems so hollow in comparison and I weep for the generation that was deprived of it.

 

[kermitz06]

I can see what you’re saying, and I don’t mean this in a rude way at all, but to me that isn’t a problem. This is because I have only been Catholic for 2 years and I have only been going to the TLM for about 8 months. Before that I was an atheist and didn’t have any religious upbringing at all. In fact, I’d say that your wife would has advantage over me! It just takes a little bit of effort. I think better instruction (particularly RCIA) could educate people in this area as well. Peace brother!

RCIA educating people… that would be nice but I digress. I would venture to say that you have more of advantage, because she is always comparing, not because she longs for the “good ol days” or anything, she is just comparing against what she knows. I think it would be much easier to learn rather than re-learn.

 

[kermitz06]

Welcome aboard!

Kermitz, I feel your pain. I just discovered the Tridentine Mass last autumn having grown up post Vatican II and no Latin knowledge. My 1962 Missal is a great help along with the many internet sites on the subject.

The NO Mass seems so hollow in comparison and I weep for the generation that was deprived of it.

I truly believe that there will be a day again where all Catholics have the same Mass. It is sad to see people who only attend Mass for the community, instead of for Christ.

 

[thunderballs75]

RCIA educating people… that would be nice but I digress. I would venture to say that you have more of advantage, because she is always comparing, not because she longs for the “good ol days” or anything, she is just comparing against what she knows. I think it would be much easier to learn rather than re-learn.

LOL I guess that’s an oxymoron, isn’t it? RCIA educating people…haha!

You’re probably right on that. But I must say from experience that it certainly isn’t as impossible as everybody makes it out to be.

God bless.

 

[kermitz06]

LOL I guess that’s an oxymoron, isn’t it? RCIA educating people…haha!

You’re probably right on that. But I must say from experience that it certainly isn’t as impossible as everybody makes it out to be.

God bless.

No it is definitely not impossible, with God all is possible. I certainly never thought she would convert in the first place so we will see.

In any case prayers would be appreciated, the Church needs them, we need them. and a more traditional N.O. would do wonders for the Church. (Fr. Rafael we will miss you) The reverent priests always get relocated, why is that?

God Bless!

 

[Ockham]

I truly believe that there will be a day again where all Catholics have the same Mass. It is sad to see people who only attend Mass for the community, instead of for Christ.

The Catholic Mass actually being catholic again would be nice. The Mass is integral to our faith. It’s no coincidence the Church has suffered a decrease in members and conviction since the NO Mass became standard.

 

[thunderballs75]

No it is definitely not impossible, with God all is possible. I certainly never thought she would convert in the first place so we will see.

In any case prayers would be appreciated, the Church needs them, we need them. and a more traditional N.O. would do wonders for the Church. (Fr. Rafael we will miss you) The reverent priests always get relocated, why is that?

God Bless!

Yes, I pray every night for vocations and for the Church to stick to its traditions. My cousin is becoming a priest in fact. We’ve had a rise in vocations fortunately in my diocese. Hopefully they will take advantage of the latest motu proprio. Take care!

 

[DavidPalm]

For the sake of economy, I won’t repeat what I said [post=4910144]earlier[/post] in this thread. Suffice it to say here that the approach suggested above was tried and sort of backfired in 1965: the ultimate result was the OF as seen today, and the de facto suppression of the Missal of 1962 for 40+ years.

A great many people have prayed, hoped, and worked hard for the restoration of the “old” Missal. It finally became reality with Summorum Pontificum, and trust me when I say those same people, plus many others who have since come to understand and appreciate the EF for what it is, would not be too thrilled to have it taken away again.

There’s a small thread in another CAF forum [thread=318469]here[/thread] about the “reform of the reform” which might be of interest. PP Benedict XVI seems to hope that the coexistence of the two forms can lead to organic development and enrichment. Perhaps that’s what the “reform of the reform” is all about.

We agree (as always, it would seem )

To me, that 1965 Mass is so interesting precisely because, as malphono points out, it is pretty much exactly what the “reform of the reform” folks think of when they describe “what was really intended by Vatican II.” If that had been the extent of the liturgical reform, there would not have been any significant liturgical upheaval in the Church, IMO.

So why didn’t it stay that way? Well, those who dismiss “conspiracies” out of hand won’t buy it. But a conspiracy is just two or more likeminded people getting together to try and achieve a common goal. And the 1965 missal was not sufficiently radical for a group of well-positioned revolutionaries and they were able to get the ear of the Pope and get a much more sweeping set of changes pushed through. Certainly, in some cases their worst intentions were blocked, thank God. But the outcome was a sufficiently radical break with the Latin Rite’s liturgical tradition that it sent shock waves through the Church and strained or even shattered the faith of countless individuals.

A really excellent book for those, like me, who constantly ask the question “what the h— happened to the Church?” is The Desolate City by Anne Roche Muggeridge. She spends the first three or four chapters detailing the common characteristics of revolutions throughout history, then shows how all of those common characteristics apply to what happened in the Catholic Church following the Second Vatican Council. It was truly a revolution. Brilliant analysis.

 

[Ad_Deum]

Pax Christi!

Hello,

My family background is Catholic since my great-great grandmother as far as I am told by my grandparents. We attend the Traditional Latin Mass and the other relatives the New Order of Mass, and occasionally they attend the TLM. The biggest problem with my relatives is the language and practices used in the liturgy. One solution for this problem (probably) is the use of English or any vernacular for the Extraordinary Form, and pronouncation of the prayers in a loud voice vs. silently, but all the essentials will not be changed…

Good day to all!

PS: Any comments is welcomed.

 

[ProVobis]

One solution for this problem (probably) is the use of English or any vernacular for the Extraordinary Form,

This I don’t understand. If you wish to go to a vernacular Mass, then you already have one in the OF. The Mass is the Mass, as is claimed here on CA, so what’s the problem? Unless you’re saying the EF is the superior Mass whatever the language. I would not accept that, even though I strictly attend the EF.

 

[kermitz06]

This I don’t understand. If you wish to go to a vernacular Mass, then you already have one in the OF. The Mass is the Mass, as is claimed here on CA, so what’s the problem? Unless you’re saying the EF is the superior Mass whatever the language. I would not accept that, even though I strictly attend the EF.

Perhaps the same problem I and so many that I know face. The OF may be a true Mass, but it is far from ideal for those who desire a “Traditional” form that is easier to follow and understand.