A New Mass Is Needed

[sarahraegraham]

Hmmm… I’m 25, and I’ve only ever experienced the NO. I was raised with the NO, left the Church, eventually became a Christian in the Protestant world and a couple of years ago returned to the Catholic Church. I am just beginning to learn about the TLM’s existence. I feel drawn to it for a number of reasons, but I also have apprehensions, the language barrier in particular. Latin at this point in time is gibberish to me.

I can definitely understand how some who have grown up with the TLM would not feel that allowing the vernacular to be spoken is a good idea. However, I think some fail to look at it from an outsider’s perspective.

I would love to see an EF mass in English! I would be able to follow along, learn and then transition over to the TLM. Jumping straight into it is very daunting, and I cannot imagine being a complete outsider and endeavoring to do so; I wouldn’t try it at all. I do believe that nothing worthwhile is ever easy, but I think there’s a way to strike a balance between retaining the integrity and solemnity of the mass while fostering an environment where newborn faith can more easily take hold and grow.

Just thought I might share, as some food for thought and another perspective.

Oh, I also wanted to say that it’s been my experience that, if a goal of Vat. II’s changes was to foster a more “communal” environment at Mass, it has failed miserably. People at Mass (the majority), don’t say hello, don’t smile at the sign of the peace, and many do not even perform the responses but stand there stonefaced throughout. It’s very sad.

 

[Ockham]

Sarah,

Get yourself a 1962 Missal (English-Latin).

angeluspress.org/

You experienced what many have also encountered. The NO Mass pales in comparison to the Tridentine. It will take some homework, but learning the liturgical Latin is within your ablility.

May God Bless you,

 

[Like]

Oh, I also wanted to say that it’s been my experience that, if a goal of Vat. II changes was to foster a more “communal” environment at Mass, it has failed miserably. People at Mass (the majority), don’t say hello, don’t smile at the sign of the peace, and many do not even perform the responses but stand there stone faced throughout. It’s very sad.

Hey Sarah,
I don’t think I’ve ever read or heard anyone describe the NO (OF) Mass as you have. Most traditional Catholics have just the opposite opinion, which is, that the congregation is all lovey dovey with their neighbor. You know, running up and down the isles shaking hands,kissing & hugging. Holding hands during the Our Father.

I don’t have access to the TLM nor the OF Mass the way it was intended to be. As it is, I would be willing to trade parishes with you. I have yet to attend an OF Mass where the congregation worshiped vertical rather than horizontal.

You don’t have to know Latin in order to understand the TLM, All or most missals have the Latin on the left page & English on the right.
And the OF Mass Vs. the TLM, in reverence, you truly can not compare!

Please, if you have access to the TML go there for at least 3 or 4 times.

 

[sarahraegraham]

Hey Sarah,
I don’t think I’ve ever read or heard anyone describe the NO (OF) Mass as you have. Most traditional Catholics have just the opposite opinion, which is, that the congregation is all lovey dovey with their neighbor. You know, running up and down the isles shaking hands,kissing & hugging. Holding hands during the Our Father.

I don’t have access to the TLM nor the OF Mass the way it was intended to be. As it is, I would be willing to trade parishes with you. I have yet to attend an OF Mass where the congregation worshiped vertical rather than horizontal.

You don’t have to know Latin in order to understand the TLM, All or most missals have the Latin on the left page & English on the right.
And the OF Mass Vs. the TLM, in reverence, you truly can not compare!

Please, if you have access to the TML go there for at least 3 or 4 times.

My experience, both now and growing up, is that the NO (when compared to what I’ve seen so far from videos of the TLM) is definitely more Protestant in flavor. Sure, people are “lovey-dovey” before and after Mass with those they know, most smile during the sign of the peace again with those they know. My churches have never gone in for all the crazy stuff, and I’d never even heard of those sorts of “clown” practices until I read info posted here (I find it repulsive and wonder how its happening, but that’s another thread!). I can find great good in the desire of the Magisterium/Pope/whoever to want to pull the worshipping community together at Mass, but there’s a very fine line there in order to maintain the Catholic identity. The reverence at the NO’s I’ve attended is NOWHERE near where I feel it should be, and I’ve felt that way ever since I’ve returned to the faith and didn’t even know that another option existed. And my church is one of the better one’s as far as the actual service itself; it’s the people who bother me the most. And I fully believe that were it not for some of the Vat II changes we would not have the majority of the problems in the congregation that we have today, i.e., immodest dress, kids playing with toys and eating food, mothers letting their children run wild. There are still plenty of people at Mass who don’t really participate and the “communal” changes haven’t fostered their growth, but they HAVE brought in horrible changes to the respect people give for Mass. The environment has become very Protestant and decidely un-Catholic, IMO.

It’s such a slippery slope and disheartening to discover that it really has become that when it didn’t need to happen in the first place.

Edited to add, I would like to attend both the high and low Latin masses to compare, and I plan on asking to see if they provide bilingual missals so that I could take one to study instead of having to buy, but I will do what I must do. I’m sure it will be worth the effort.

 

[Timothysis]

The NO Mass pales in comparison to the Tridentine.

Yes, the Real Presence of Christ in the Pauline Mass is totally diminished compared to that in the Tridentine.

 

[Ockham]

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. **By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus. **

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?

olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

 

[bkovacs]

We agree (as always, it would seem )

To me, that 1965 Mass is so interesting precisely because, as malphono points out, it is pretty much exactly what the “reform of the reform” folks think of when they describe “what was really intended by Vatican II.” If that had been the extent of the liturgical reform, there would not have been any significant liturgical upheaval in the Church, IMO.

So why didn’t it stay that way? Well, those who dismiss “conspiracies” out of hand won’t buy it. But a conspiracy is just two or more likeminded people getting together to try and achieve a common goal. And the 1965 missal was not sufficiently radical for a group of well-positioned revolutionaries and they were able to get the ear of the Pope and get a much more sweeping set of changes pushed through. Certainly, in some cases their worst intentions were blocked, thank God. But the outcome was a sufficiently radical break with the Latin Rite’s liturgical tradition that it sent shock waves through the Church and strained or even shattered the faith of countless individuals.

A really excellent book for those, like me, who constantly ask the question “what the h— happened to the Church?” is The Desolate City by Anne Roche Muggeridge. She spends the first three or four chapters detailing the common characteristics of revolutions throughout history, then shows how all of those common characteristics apply to what happened in the Catholic Church following the Second Vatican Council. It was truly a revolution. Brilliant analysis.

I agree!. The TLM in the vernacular should be the Ordinary. And when in Latin, the Extra-Ordinary. Why is it so hard to figure out?. They will continue playing with something that can’t be fixed, until we die. The Pauline Mass. Get rid of it!!

 

[ProVobis]

I agree!. The TLM in the vernacular should be the Ordinary. And when in Latin, the Extra-Ordinary. Why is it so hard to figure out?. They will continue playing with something that can’t be fixed, until we die. The Pauline Mass. Get rid of it!!

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the vernacular IS the Ordinary. I never thought I’d end up defending the Form I generally don’t attend but c’mon, the OF is a divine rite and should be respected.

 

[bkovacs]

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the vernacular IS the Ordinary. I never thought I’d end up defending the Form I generally don’t attend but c’mon, the OF is a divine rite and should be respected.

I’m talking about the TLM in the vernacular being the Ordinary. NOT the Pauline Mass!.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m talking about the TLM in the vernacular being the Ordinary. NOT the Pauline Mass!.

I know what you’re trying to say and it’s not good. You’re saying the TLM in any vernacular is superior to the Novus Ordo and I’m saying it’s not superior.

And, by the way, they tried the TLM in the vernacular in the 60’s and it failed the time test. The TLM is perfect the way it is. Your missal has the unofficial vernacular if you wish to follow it that way.

 

[bkovacs]

I know what you’re trying to say and it’s not good. You’re saying the TLM in any vernacular is superior to the Novus Ordo and I’m saying it’s not superior.

And, by the way, they tried the TLM in the vernacular in the 60’s and it failed the time test. The TLM is perfect the way it is. Your missal has the unofficial vernacular if you wish to follow it that way.

Well it’s better than a Novus Ordo Mass with Liturgical Dancers, folk music, priest facing people and not the tabernacle, etcc.

 

[Timothysis]

I know what you’re trying to say and it’s not good. You’re saying the TLM in any vernacular is superior to the Novus Ordo and I’m saying it’s not superior.

And, by the way, they tried the TLM in the vernacular in the 60’s and it failed the time test. The TLM is perfect the way it is. Your missal has the unofficial vernacular if you wish to follow it that way.

Bravo, sir.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I know what you’re trying to say and it’s not good. You’re saying the TLM in any vernacular is superior to the Novus Ordo and I’m saying it’s not superior.

It’s superior if one takes the following views:

• The Mass is, above all things, the ‘making-present’ of the Calvary Sacrifice and this should be made as evident as possible.
• Great reverence, as was present in the ancient Jewish liturgy, as was present in the liturgy of the Church for the vast majority of Her history, should be present.

Using those criteria, it is objectively superior.

I get a good taste of both rites every week.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s superior if one takes the following views:

• The Mass is, above all things, the ‘making-present’ of the Calvary Sacrifice and this should be made as evident as possible.
• Great reverence, as was present in the ancient Jewish liturgy, as was present in the liturgy of the Church for the vast majority of Her history, should be present.

Using those criteria, it is objectively superior.

I get a good taste of both rites every week.

Point well-taken. I could see that with the OF dancing and clapping one could more easily lose his faith but that would only be my opinion. There are actual people who feel very comfortable with these forms of “irreverence.”

And I get a good dose of the EF every week.

 

[otjm]

Unity and diversity are not synonymous.

You believe as you pray. It’s no coincidence the percentage of Cathlics believing in the Real Presence declined after the NO. The liturgy is very much a matter of faith. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a recreation of Calvary. The NO makes it more of a supper with Christ’s body and blood being symbols rather than fact.

We don’t need a new Mass. If anything we need one less.

This is another fine example of Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc. It most certainly is a concidence; while the issue of the Mass being a supper is in fact an aspect of the OF, it is also a recreation of Calvary, and it is only those who have an axe to grind who would deny this.

the cause of the loss of understanding (as opposed to lack of belief) of the teaching of the Church about the Real Presence is not due to the change to the OF; it is due to the fact that the Baltimore Catechism was thrown out and the catechisms that replaced it did all they could to emphasize the social aspects of the Gospels and to downplay or outright ignore the teaching of the doctrinal beliefs in the Church.

The statistics back this up - those who were taught pre-Vatican 2 of what the Church believes are still the strongest group in weekly attendance at Mass. the next group, called the Vatican 2 group, have a falling off statistcally, which coincides with the changes in catechesis; and the next two groups - those under 40 and the 18 - 30 crowd have the lowest attendance rate, approaching 20%. They are reflective of boht the failure to teach them, and the failure to teach their parents.

Out here in Oregon we have parishes that now have 24 hour Adoration. It has no connection to the EF; it has to do with the OF reverently said, and catechesis of what the Church teaches being brought back.

The OF in and of itself is not the issue; it is the attitudes and demeanor of the priest.

Keep in mind that both John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 both say the OF.

 

[DavidPalm]

This is another fine example of Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc. It most certainly is a concidence; while the issue of the Mass being a supper is in fact an aspect of the OF, it is also a recreation of Calvary, and it is only those who have an axe to grind who would deny this.

the cause of the loss of understanding (as opposed to lack of belief) of the teaching of the Church about the Real Presence is not due to the change to the OF; it is due to the fact that the Baltimore Catechism was thrown out and the catechisms that replaced it did all they could to emphasize the social aspects of the Gospels and to downplay or outright ignore the teaching of the doctrinal beliefs in the Church.

The statistics back this up - those who were taught pre-Vatican 2 of what the Church believes are still the strongest group in weekly attendance at Mass. the next group, called the Vatican 2 group, have a falling off statistcally, which coincides with the changes in catechesis; and the next two groups - those under 40 and the 18 - 30 crowd have the lowest attendance rate, approaching 20%. They are reflective of boht the failure to teach them, and the failure to teach their parents.

Your statistics would support either the change in catechesis, or the change in liturgy, or both. So how can you categorically state that the liturgical changes are “mere coincidence” while stating categorically that the catechesis is the certain cause, when your evidence is equivocal?

 

[otjm]

Your statistics would support either the change in catechesis, or the change in liturgy, or both. So how can you categorically state that the liturgical changes are “mere coincidence” while stating categorically that the catechesis is the certain cause, when your evidence is equivocal?

The evidence is not equivocal for the simple reason that what almost all people believe(d) who were raised pre-Vatican 2 was what they were taught. And what most people subsequent to Vatican 2 either didn’t believe or could not express corectly was what they were not taught.

I grew up pre-Vatican 2. I was taught what the Church believes. So were those who grew up with me. We were not taught the beliefs of the Church for the most part in Mass; we were given sermons about whatever topic the bishop wished that week. Further, some of us used missals, but we had to purchase them, and at least in the parishes I attended Mass, better than half did not have a missal, and most of us did not speak Latin. In fact, I took Latin and Homeric Greek (with a bit of koinae) in high school and two years of Latin in college, and most of us could not carry on any sort of conversation in Latin (with the exception of those who attended Jesuit High, as they were taught Latin as a spoken language; something unique at the time).

For all the kevetching that goes on about the Mass changes from EF to OF, most of the changes were not anywhere near as egregious as some would have it to be. Certain prayers were eliminated; others were added ( and I will agree that the prayers were"dumbed down" to an extent), but the essential elements of the Mass remained the same. Those of us who were taught that the Mass is a sacrifice have no problem picking that up in the OF prayers.

 

[ProVobis]

Keep in mind that both John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 both say the OF.

I was with you throughout your post, but I’m disappointed with this last statement. It really doesn’t belong, sorry.

And usually we use Roman numerals for Popes’ names.

 

[Ad_Deum]

This I don’t understand. If you wish to go to a vernacular Mass, then you already have one in the OF. The Mass is the Mass, as is claimed here on CA, so what’s the problem? Unless you’re saying the EF is the superior Mass whatever the language. I would not accept that, even though I strictly attend the EF.

I’m not saying that Latin is superior than any language how could it be superior if its no longer used (except the Church, math, science, etc.). There is no argument whether it is in Latin or not, the first Mass was in Aramaic (language of Jesus when He was on earth). What I’m trying to say is like this the OF which could be celebrated in Latin or vernacular no problem at all, why not the EF be like that too (CAN IT HAPPEN?)? I know TLM = only Latin and NOM = whatever language… I believe that langauage is not the problem because God does not care about it cause He understand any language, what is in the heart is what He cares for, the content of it when we celebrate Holy Communion.

Pax Christi

• Ad Deum

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not saying that Latin is superior than any language how could it be superior if its no longer used (except the Church, math, science, etc.). There is no argument whether it is in Latin or not, the first Mass was in Aramaic (language of Jesus when He was on earth). What I’m trying to say is like this the OF which could be celebrated in Latin or vernacular no problem at all, why not the EF be like that too (CAN IT HAPPEN?)? I know TLM = only Latin and NOM = whatever language… I believe that langauage is not the problem because God does not care about it cause He understand any language, what is in the heart is what He cares for, the content of it when we celebrate Holy Communion.

Pax Christi

• Ad Deum

I said nothing of the superiority/inferiority of Latin. Personally I think the EF should stay in Latin as it has for over 1500 years, perhaps with ADDED (not substituted) vernacular. But that’s not the point. The Mass is the Holy Sacrifice and every such ESTABLISHED Sacrifice is of divine nature and one cannot be superior to another, be it the OF, EF, Eastern, or Orthodox. I’ve attended Italian, Polish, and Spanish Masses and plan on attending others as well. Why do people have such a hangup with the language? My cats don’t as long as they know that they’re getting something for dinner.