A New Mass Is Needed

[otjm]

I was with you throughout your post, but I’m disappointed with this last statement. It really doesn’t belong, sorry.

And usually we use Roman numerals for Popes’ names.

I am sorry you are disappointed with my comment, but I think it has relevance. Either pope could have said the EF had they chosen to; neither made or are making a point of saying it to any noticeable degree.

I use noticeable degree, because the press would certainly be remarking about it if, for example the current pope were to say the EF on anything even approaching a regular basis - and by that I think even a once a month basis would be considered regular. If he were to really want to bring the EF to a higher exposure, certainly his saying it on a regular, even once a month basis would be getting notice. As much as he has criticized some aspects of the OF, that is primarily what he says - which backs up his statement that the OF is just the - the OF.

I understand that there are people who want the EF, who want to see it more widely celebrated, and who feel that it is superior to the OF. But IMHO Rome is saying something else, or at least not saying what they want it to say. Thems’s just the facts. If the Pope wanted to subtley bring the EF to greater prominence, he would not have to change any rules currently in existence. All he would have to do is say it publicly and regularly. And my point is, he doesn’t do that. He says the OF almost exclusively. He is the one to make the point; I am just commenting on it.

In short, I take his constant use of the OF to be making a statement, and that is that it is the OF.

 

[malphono]

…If the Pope wanted to subtley bring the EF to greater prominence, he would not have to change any rules currently in existence. All he would have to do is say it publicly and regularly. And my point is, he doesn’t do that. He says the OF almost exclusively. He is the one to make the point; I am just commenting on it.

In short, I take his constant use of the OF to be making a statement, and that is that it is the OF.

As if it would make a difference. PP Benedict XVI has already done “lead by action” thing with the communion issue and it has had ZERO practical effect, at least in the US.

 

[ProVobis]

I am sorry you are disappointed with my comment, but I think it has relevance. Either pope could have said the EF had they chosen to; neither made or are making a point of saying it to any noticeable degree.

This is pure baloney. You’re only trying to play politics with the Mass. Seems as if the Eastern Rite Catholics could be slightly offended at such tactics on your part as well. Good thing that they understand things a little better than some childish “ha ha, see, he’s on our side” type of statement. Maybe Washington DC and New York are better than Chicago because the Pope visited there and not Chicago? Maybe cats are better than dogs because the Pope happens to love cats? Good luck with your logic.

 

[Frosty]

Otjim"s point about the Pope celebrating the OF exclusively does have relevance whether you care to admit or not. He has not once celebrated anything but the OF during his pontificate in public. This Pope knows all about reverence and more about the liturgy of the Catholic Church than most people alive. Certainly more than anyone who posts on this forum. His Masses set a high standard that he hopes will filter down through the ranks of the clergy. It is so easy to sit at your computer and say that nobody pays attention or cares and that he isn’t having any effect. Take off your blinkers for awhile and listen to what others say. Others who aren’t so determined to advocate nothing but the Mass of John XXIII and who take the slightest excuse to trash the OF.
Perhaps some day, Benedict XVI will celebrate the EF publicly during his pontificate. I would be happy if he did. However, the OF is the normative form of the liturgy for the Latin rite Catholic Church and his mandate is for the whole Church and to lead it by example.
The Pope has said many times that these differences have to be put aside for the good of the Church That the Church cannot move ahead, and that it ceases to be a sign of the Gospel, if each person sees only his own point of view and does nothing but fight to assert it. Does anyone think that an outsider would see anything even resembling a sign of the Gospel on threads such as this? It isn’t a game we are playing here, although it seems like it much of the time!

 

[diggerdomer]

We need something inbetween the arch-conservative and the extreme liberal versions of the Mass, if not in place of the N.O. In my honost opinion, the Traditional Mass translated to the vernacular, and prayed aloud would be great.

What say you?

God Bless.

I’d offer that instead of thinking of what we need, celebrate according to what the Church provides.

Cheers

 

[ProVobis]

Perhaps some day, Benedict XVI will celebrate the EF publicly during his pontificate.

Yeh, right, with you guys all over him for doing it. I’m sure he’s aware of the political implications of doing so in light of the controversy brought up by the many liberals in and out of the church surrounding the lifting of the SSPX excommunications. Bishops are still fuming about the SP.

This is the real world not your “ha ha, he only says the OF and gives out communion in the hand to abortion politicians standing up.”

 

[Frosty]

Yeh, right, with you guys all over him for doing it. I’m sure he’s aware of the political implications of doing so in light of the controversy brought up by the many liberals in and out of the church surrounding the lifting of the SSPX excommunications. Bishops are still fuming about the SP.

This is the real world not your “ha ha, he only says the OF and gives out communion in the hand to abortion politicians standing up.”

Do you ever read through someone’s entire post and try to grasp exactly what the person has said? I did say that if Pope Benedict XVI decided to say the EF that I would be happy if he did. Where the giving out of communion to pro-abortion politicians standing and in the hand comes from is beyond me. I sure as heck never mentioned it.
This pope is not a coward and definitely is not afraid of controversy as anyone who has followed his pontificate knows. If he thought that celebrating the EF publicly would help to bring the various factions within the Church closer together, he would do so, regardless of any anticipated backlash.
It’s so convenient to keep saying that the episcopate is still fuming about SP, isn’t it? Granted that there are those Bishops who did not welcome the Moto Proprio and have put upi some roadblocks. There are also many more that have welcomed it. Look at the number of EF Masses that have sprung up in parishes all over the world in the past years and a half. Or look at the number of priests attending workshops to learn how to say the EF and will be then ready to do so if enough of their parishoners request it.
Maybe it is just easier to stay with the negative point of view and keep bitching and complaining about everything that one perceives is wrong in the Church. Maybe it’s more fun that way? In this world in which the Catholic Church is being attacked constantly, both from within and without, why can’t we all try to actually behave like Catholics who profess their Faith and love their Church? There is a real difference between constructive criticism and questioning and the constant trashing of Vatican II and the OF that ones finds on this forum. So-called traditionalists like to think that only the progressives within the Church are hurting her. Now that is a joke! It doesn’t mater if one wields the knife from the left side or the right, the wounds hurt every bit as much.

 

[otjm]

This is pure baloney. You’re only trying to play politics with the Mass. Seems as if the Eastern Rite Catholics could be slightly offended at such tactics on your part as well. Good thing that they understand things a little better than some childish “ha ha, see, he’s on our side” type of statement. Maybe Washington DC and New York are better than Chicago because the Pope visited there and not Chicago? Maybe cats are better than dogs because the Pope happens to love cats? Good luck with your logic.

I am playing no politics with the Mass at all. Nor is my logic fallacious; an Eastern Rite Catholic would be quite pleased with thePope as he follows in the footsteps of hsi predecessor, both of whom have supported the return of Eastern Catholics to their rites and the removal of Latinization.

As to the “ha ha he’s on our side”, I am not taking sides. I am neither promoting nor trying to surpress the EF. There are ardent followers of the EF and I ahve no problem with taht in and of itself. However, there are a few in the ranks who are looking for a wholesale change in the OF and that ainta gonna happen if the evidence is to be believed.

Your comments about New York, cats, etc. seems to portray some anger about the issue. If you are angry, that is sad, because it is a heavy burden to carry. The head of the dicastery in Rome which is in charge of the EF issues has had some interesting things to say about those who are on the fringes of pushing for the EF, and his comments were not exactly complimentary.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I comment on what is going on; and in doing so I look at the facts. If you don’t like the facts, shooting the messenger is not the most logical response.

 

[rafael_vicho]

As of mine, I recognize the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo) and the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine) as both the valid liturgical expressions of the Latin rite. I have no contention against Novus Ordo. My only contention about it is on how the OF is celebrated.

Since I began to read some liturgical books and rubrics on the celebration of the OF, I came to realize that most of the provisions stated are not followed. In short, many liturgical rules are not followed in the OF. Adding to that, most of the NO liturgical rules intended to continue and apply the beautiful customs and traditions of EF, which is sadly not done due to countless misintepretations by those so-called “liturgists”.

OF can be celebrated as solemn as EF, whether in Latin or vernacular. Need example? Go to masses celebrated by Opus Dei priests. See how reverent they are, from vestments to altar arrangments to everything.

 

[I_Believe]

To me what the RCC seems to need is a new Mass. One that adheres much more stringently to the Traditional views, but still is one that allows participation.

We already have a Rite that offers exactly that. It’s called the Tridentine Rite.

Participation is enabled by the use of a missal. For those who are willing to put forth the effort to use it that is.

The greatest myth regarding the TLM is that there is no participation by the laity. The myth is fueled by sheer ignorance. Time and time again on this forum, when someone tries to explain that there is indeed participation by those in the pews during the TLM, many choose to Sloth over effort.

We don’t need a new Mass, we need to stop going through the motions and actually start raising our children as Catholics.

 

[bkovacs]

We already have a Rite that offers exactly that. It’s called the Tridentine Rite.

Participation is enabled by the use of a missal. For those who are willing to put forth the effort to use it that is.

The greatest myth regarding the TLM is that there is no participation by the laity. The myth is fueled by sheer ignorance. Time and time again on this forum, when someone tries to explain that there is indeed participation by those in the pews during the TLM, many choose to Sloth over effort.

We don’t need a new Mass, we need to stop going through the motions and actually start raising our children as Catholics.

Agree!.