A new Mass?

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Yes, and Pope Pius XII was in favor of Mass in the vernacular in order to do away with the private devotions that people were practicing during Mass…

Source for that?

My reading indicates that Paul was ‘manipulated’ more than anything - he very rarely expressed strong opinions of his own on the liturgy. Of course, his writings at the end of the council indicate he expected any reformed Mass to be in Latin with no changes to posture, etc.

Have you read The Ottaviani intervention? This really should be required reading for anyone who wants to understand the differences between the two Masses.

 

[eelpis]

Yes, and Pope Pius XII was in favor of Mass in the vernacular in order to do away with the private devotions that people were practicing during Mass…

Interior active participation is not private devotions.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Timothysis;4433291:

Yes, and Pope Pius XII was in favor of Mass in the vernacular in order to do away with the private devotions that people were practicing during Mass…

Source for that?

In Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII wrote:
108. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.

Unfortunately, over the years certain progressive Catholics chose to misrepresent Pope Pius XII as saying the opposite of what he actually wrote, and others in good faith repeated what they heard.

 

[Unitas]

In Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII wrote:
108. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.

Unfortunately, over the years certain progressive Catholics chose to misrepresent Pope Pius XII as saying the opposite of what he actually wrote, and others in good faith repeated what they heard.

That is in defense of private devotions during mass, not an endorsement for the vernacular.

Now is that ok for everyone? No, only for those who “unable to use the Roman missal” and who are “[in]capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas.”

All true participation begins in the heart. It then sometimes goes outward and manifests itself into action or song. If there is nothing in the heart then there is no real participation. Merely going through the motions is not participation. To clarify: you do not need scripted gestures, words, and songs from beginning to end to be participating in the mass. Nor do you need gestures, words, or songs as proof of true participation. Who are we to judge those praying in silence that they aren’t participating?

I always hear that the new mass is so much more engaging and the TLM was so stuffy and people never paid attention. Every time, without fail, when in the gospel reading Christ says, “The Lord be with you.” half the congregation drones out, “And also with you.” During the gospel reading! Obviously they aren’t paying attention either! Their brains are on autopilot. Active participation? I think not. So even with its scripted gestures and responses, the NO is not immune to lack of participation in the same proportion as the TLM. So the “lack of participation” argument fails.

Can any of you pray a prayer from a holy card in silence and have it be heartfelt and genuine? Yeah? Then the same goes for the TLM. As Pius X said, pray the mass.

 

[Brian777]

Amen Unitas! Amen!

 

[malphono]

So, though you deny it, if the situation were reversed (an EF available, not an OF) you would not consider a Catholic “stuck” by having no option other than the OF of the Mass. For your information, not all “good” Catholics prefer the EF over the OF. Though I would never say that I “do not like” the EF I would say that I prefer the OF for the same reason as a previous poster stated; I enjoy participating in the Mass.

And I thought it was the “Novus Ordo” Catholics who were intolerant…

BTW, my Jesus is better than your Jesus.

My, my, how testy. And I wasn’t the one who first used the word “stuck.”

But “stuck” many people are. I haven’t the gumption or interest to engage in a major debate over this, but lets take an analogy: turn on the tube and you see ads for TWC, Cablevision, and Verizon. A person lives in an area that is serviced by TWC and Verizon, so he cannot have service from Cablevision. In his area, Verizon does not offer FIOS. So what happens? If this person wants something other than broadcast TV he’s “stuck” with TWC, at least until such time that Verizon makes FIOS available. (Yes, there’s also “the dish” but many times that is not an option either due to geographical orientation.)

In other words, being “stuck” is just that. If you have the option and prefer the OF, that’s up to you. Just as if you had the option for TWC or Verizon and preferred TWC. Many people do.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

I am a very traditional Catholic. I love the Tridentine Mass. I think that the new Mass was perhaps changed too much. I believe that, since the Eucharist is the main focus, there should be an addition to when the Eucharist begins to be consecrated. Its needs to be made more solemn and pious so that the people can see that this is when Christ changes the bread and wine into His body and blood–this stems from me seeing people simply not caring or paying attention. They do not know what is going on!! (It also depeds on the priest).

I think that the priest, at this point, needs to come the front of the altar and pray FOR the people, as in the Latin Mass. There prayers need to be changed, there has to be singing–people need to the importance of what is happening and also share in its mystery. Does anyone else feel this way or share any of my thought?

I hope I’m not giving a bad impression:blush:

Why change something that was given to us by God, and was the Mass for the Latin Rite for probably around 1960 years?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

That is in defense of private devotions during mass, not an endorsement for the vernacular.

Now is that ok for everyone? No, only for those who “unable to use the Roman missal” and who are “[in]capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas.”

All true participation begins in the heart. It then sometimes goes outward and manifests itself into action or song. If there is nothing in the heart then there is no real participation. Merely going through the motions is not participation. To clarify: you do not need scripted gestures, words, and songs from beginning to end to be participating in the mass. Nor do you need gestures, words, or songs as proof of true participation. Who are we to judge those praying in silence that they aren’t participating?

I always hear that the new mass is so much more engaging and the TLM was so stuffy and people never paid attention. Every time, without fail, when in the gospel reading Christ says, “The Lord be with you.” half the congregation drones out, “And also with you.” During the gospel reading! Obviously they aren’t paying attention either! Their brains are on autopilot. Active participation? I think not. So even with its scripted gestures and responses, the NO is not immune to lack of participation in the same proportion as the TLM. So the “lack of participation” argument fails.

Can any of you pray a prayer from a holy card in silence and have it be heartfelt and genuine? Yeah? Then the same goes for the TLM. As Pius X said, pray the mass.

Very nice post.

In recent months, I have been able to see the inherent fallacy in the notion that the NO “encourages better/more/deeper participation”.

I participate in the Gregorian rite with an intensity that rarely find me at a NO, even reverently said. I do attend both weekly, for the record. I just find that the prayers of TLM are so much more beautiful and theologically deep that I am drawn into deeper contemplation of the Mystery, almost without fail.

Some would look at me and the others there and feel we’re not “participating” at all. But, in fact, I am offering the Sacrifice in union with the priest and my soul is experiencing deep joy regardless of my exterior actions. Which is not to say there aren’t any, of course - there’s the posture, and the singing/chanting with the choir.

But the inward recitation of the prayers with one’s focus on the altar is where the deepest participation lies.

 

[Antonia123]

A little-known fact is that there was a type of Tridentine Mass called a Dialogue Mass, in which the congregation spoke/sung the responses usually made by the servers and/or choir. This was very popular BEFORE VII, mainly in continental Europe, and is still practiced by some of the EF congregations in France. It doesn’t seem to have caught on in the U.S., more’s the pity.

 

[Timothysis]

My, my, how testy. And I wasn’t the one who first used the word “stuck.”

But “stuck” many people are. I haven’t the gumption or interest to engage in a major debate over this, but lets take an analogy: turn on the tube and you see ads for TWC, Cablevision, and Verizon. A person lives in an area that is serviced by TWC and Verizon, so he cannot have service from Cablevision. In his area, Verizon does not offer FIOS. So what happens? If this person wants something other than broadcast TV he’s “stuck” with TWC, at least until such time that Verizon makes FIOS available. (Yes, there’s also “the dish” but many times that is not an option either due to geographical orientation.)

In other words, being “stuck” is just that. If you have the option and prefer the OF, that’s up to you. Just as if you had the option for TWC or Verizon and preferred TWC. Many people do.

I would not call participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, be it the OF or the EF, as being “stuck,” regardless of my personal preference.

 

[malphono]

I would not call participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, be it the OF or the EF, as being “stuck,” regardless of my personal preference.

Still testy, I see and frankly I don’t care. The one thing I forgot in my last post was to say that it was my last in this thread. Well, it wasn’t. This is.

 

[Timothysis]

Still testy, I see and frankly I don’t care. The one thing I forgot in my last post was to say that it was my last in this thread. Well, it wasn’t. This is.

Boo hoo:crying:

 

[ProVobis]

I have tried the Tridentine Mass many times and it just does not do it for me. There is no participation, I love to pray the Mass and our Priest thank God says Mass very reverently.

The EF and OF are the same Mass and each is supposed to supplement your understanding of the Mass. If one does not understand the Mass through the EF, then the EF has failed. Same for the OF.

It’s too bad the introduction of the New Mass has introduced a lot of division with the Church.

 

[brianmichael]

[Edited]

i loue the Novus Ordo so don’t assume i don’t

if i want the EF but can’t attend one then i’m content with the OF euen with the silliness that takes place

“liturgical dance”??
please …

extra words added to the presidential prayers?
you gotta be kidding me…

 

[Dauphin]

I think what is meant is “active participation.” This is very different from sitting there with a missal hoping that you’re on the same page as the priest. More than once I’ve heard of people reading along when all of the sudden the Eucharistic bells begin to ring…and their several pages off!

Interior participation is not somehow “inactive”. Participation in the Mass has nothing to do with moving around or speaking, and has everything to do with internal disposition and prayer.

These people you describe who have difficulty following in their missal probably have just begun attending the Mass. After a while, one gets used to the order and participation becomes easier - but you do have to make an effort.

 

[Joannm]

A little-known fact is that there was a type of Tridentine Mass called a Dialogue Mass, in which the congregation spoke/sung the responses usually made by the servers and/or choir. This was very popular BEFORE VII, mainly in continental Europe, and is still practiced by some of the EF congregations in France. It doesn’t seem to have caught on in the U.S., more’s the pity.

We had the dialogue mass when I was a kid in the early 60’s before the changes. In fact, that is the only mass I remember. We always said the prayers and responses, so when we switched to English there really wasn’t too much of a difference. We also didn’t sing in Latin but English at those masses.

 

[Dauphin]

I would not call participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, be it the OF or the EF, as being “stuck,” regardless of my personal preference.

I consider myself impoverished by the fact that I have to attend the Novus Ordo 3 out of every 4 weeks, and it’s not so much a matter of the texts of the Mass as it is a matter of the culture of irreverence and rupture from tradition surrounding the modern Mass.

 

[pnewton]

I believe active participation, as is the term is normally used, is beneficial. If one reads the first few posts, you find a desire for certain things that the poster believe makes the Mass more reverent, and rightfully so. After all, we are human and in our humanity such externals aid greatly in our ability to stay focused on honoring God. Likewise, internal prayer is facilitated by external participation, at least for most. This has always been the way of the Church. We are quiet at adoration, because that is conducive to meditation. We use bells as an auditory stimulus and incense in prayer to facilitate our understanding. None of this is necessary, in the sense that a blessing is a spiritual act. Yet they help. Therefore, we use external participation to help with our internal worship. Obviously we differ on what we find conducive to worship and thereing lies some of our conflicts.

 

[FrDavid96]

I am a very traditional Catholic. I love the Tridentine Mass. I think that the new Mass was perhaps changed too much. I believe that, since the Eucharist is the main focus, there should be an addition to when the Eucharist begins to be consecrated. Its needs to be made more solemn and pious so that the people can see that this is when Christ changes the bread and wine into His body and blood–this stems from me seeing people simply not caring or paying attention. They do not know what is going on!! (It also depeds on the priest).

I think that the priest, at this point, needs to come the front of the altar and pray FOR the people, as in the Latin Mass. There prayers need to be changed, there has to be singing–people need to the importance of what is happening and also share in its mystery. Does anyone else feel this way or share any of my thought?

I hope I’m not giving a bad impression:blush:

A relatively simple thing like the use of the Sanctus bells can go so very far in making this point–assuming of course that the entire Mass is being celebrated with reverence.