A New Proof for the Existence of God

[kselfri]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

 

[Skeptic92]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

The conclusion doesn’t follow, and the argument or any valid form that I can see. I’m guessing you are attempting a form of the Argument from Reason?

 

[phil19034]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

I like it. But the only problem is that so far, we have not been able to discover the logic in Quantum Mechanics.

The idea that two sub-atomic particles can be in different places in the universe at the same time is mind-boggling, illogical, and simply Divine.

God Bless.

 

[Tomdstone]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

I am not sure that logic exists everywhere in the universe. Take for example, a baby born suffering with some fatal disease. Or those children in Palestine killed by Israeli strikes. Where is the logic in that?

 

[Skeptic92]

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

I’ll expand my previous criticism;

1: Logic exists everywhere in the universe (Premise)
2: Logic exists only in thought (premise)
3: Therefore the universe exists only in thought (from 1+2)
4; thought only comes from a mind
5:Therefore the universe exists only in a mind (from 3+4)

the conclusion seems to imply a form of panpsychism, or a form of solipsism. I’m also unsure about the first premise; what do you mean by “logic exists everywhere in the universe”? Logic is the tool for intelligible thinking, do you mean “the universe is intelligible”?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I am not sure that logic exists everywhere in the universe. Take for example, a baby born suffering with some fatal disease. Or those children in Palestine killed by Israeli strikes. Where is the logic in that?

These are not illogical, they’re just not what you would call “fair” (even though “fair” is a meaningless construct that has no real place in reality).

The logic was: A child is born with a sickness contracted from the mother, or contracted shortly after birth due to the environment the child was born into. The child’s immune system is unable fight off the sickness. As a result the child dies.

The logic for the other was: Somebody in Israel makes a bad decision in retaliation to another bad decision from someone in Palestine. That Israeli chooses to attack with a missile. That missile lands in Palestine. The missile functions properly, exploding, and sadly, killing children and others.

Both of these things are perfectly logical. They might not be good in our eyes, but you cannot claim that they are illogical.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

While I agree with premise 1, it breaks down at premise 2, as there is no way to prove this or arrive at this conclusion philosophically. Sorry, nice try, but I don’t think this works, as others have said.

 

[Netty1]

I would be interested to know how and where such thinking as Chaos Theory and Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle fit into your parameters of logic. What is your definition of logic?

Also, the very fact that we have free will and we are flawed, suggests to me that outside of God’s perfect will there is no universal logic. Man is not a logical creature and yet he is of the universe. I know that’s a bit of a circular argument, but can’t think of a better way to express it.

I think what you might end up with, looking at your formula, is an Ad ignorantiam…an argument which states that a specific belief (the universe is logical) is true because we don’t know that it isn’t true.

 

[Amandil]

While I agree with premise 1, it breaks down at premise 2, as there is no way to prove this or arrive at this conclusion philosophically. Sorry, nice try, but I don’t think this works, as others have said.

I agree, logic isn’t so much an identity or correspondence with thought but the method by which we examine thought.

You perhaps might be better off to replace “logic” with rational.

Then maybe change premise 3) to “rational thought necessarily comes from a mind”.

Then you have a slight variation of the Argument from Intelligent Design.

 

[kselfri]

When I say logic, that includes math, physics. What is meant by the first is the laws of physics, math, etc hold true under all conditions and locations. For example, there’s no obscure corner of the universe where 1+2=3 doesn’t hold true, or if A=B, B=C, then A=C doesn’t hold true, or the laws of physics don’t hold true. It’s an omnipresent property of existence. I don’t see logic as a tool, which implies it was invented by man, but rather something discovered.

 

[kselfri]

I like it. But the only problem is that so far, we have not been able to discover the logic in Quantum Mechanics.

The idea that two sub-atomic particles can be in different places in the universe at the same time is mind-boggling, illogical, and simply Divine.

God Bless.

Seemingly illogical, but that is no different than the other times when we simply didn’t understand why. At one time, people thought the earth revolving around the sun was illogical, and that the sun revolving around the earth made perfect sense.

 

[kselfri]

I would be interested to know how and where such thinking as Chaos Theory and Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle fit into your parameters of logic. What is your definition of logic?

Also, the very fact that we have free will and we are flawed, suggests to me that outside of God’s perfect will there is no universal logic. Man is not a logical creature and yet he is of the universe. I know that’s a bit of a circular argument, but can’t think of a better way to express it.

I think what you might end up with, looking at your formula, is an Ad ignorantiam…an argument which states that a specific belief (the universe is logical) is true because we don’t know that it isn’t true.

Chaos Theory is where small changes cascade to create larger, divergent results. Those cause/effect relationships are still governed by the laws of physics and math, and therefore falls into the general category of logic. The Uncertainty Principle is also a logical, mathmatics based theory, so it too falls into the category of logic. I’m using logic here as a broad category, including simple logic such as: If A=B and B=C, then A=C. Also included is mathematics.

Yes, human behavior often seemingly defies reason, but there are underlying causes, how you’re neurons are structured, chemical balances within the brain, etc. Nevertheless, the workings of the physical world around us are governed by logic.

 

[Oreoracle]

When I say logic, that includes math, physics. What is meant by the first is the laws of physics, math, etc hold true under all conditions and locations.

It’s important to understand that mathematics is invented, not discovered. It’s consistent because we choose consistent axioms for the basis of our mathematical theories. The same is true of logic; there are various kinds of logic, and they are invented for different purposes, not discovered. Consider intuitionist logic and paraconsistent logics for example.

 

[kselfri]

While I agree with premise 1, it breaks down at premise 2, as there is no way to prove this or arrive at this conclusion philosophically. Sorry, nice try, but I don’t think this works, as others have said.

I admit premise #2 is the more problematic of the three. So if you say it isn’t thought, you must claim it is something other than thought. What is it then?

 

[Tomdstone]

These are not illogical, they’re just not what you would call “fair” (even though “fair” is a meaningless construct that has no real place in reality).

The logic was: A child is born with a sickness contracted from the mother, or contracted shortly after birth due to the environment the child was born into. The child’s immune system is unable fight off the sickness. As a result the child dies.

The logic for the other was: Somebody in Israel makes a bad decision in retaliation to another bad decision from someone in Palestine. That Israeli chooses to attack with a missile. That missile lands in Palestine. The missile functions properly, exploding, and sadly, killing children and others.

Both of these things are perfectly logical. They might not be good in our eyes, but you cannot claim that they are illogical.

I claim it is illogical because God is all loving, all powerful and He knows everything. Since He is all loving He would not want innocent children to suffer. He knows about the suffering of innocent children and He has the power to prevent that suffering. But the child still suffers. So it is not logical. Evil exists and cannot be explained logically considering the omnipotence and all loving nature of God.

 

[inocente]

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

There’s no way to prove 1 and 3.

Logic isn’t thought, it’s defined as reasoning using valid rules. Machines are ace at logic.

The conclusion doesn’t follow. It assumes the universe was created and that only minds can create universes.

But also, you could make a simpler argument along the same lines:

1. Matter exists everywhere in the universe.
   Therefore, matter created the universe.

 

[opusAquinas]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

Logic is useless without INTUITION.

 

[oldcelt]

I claim it is illogical because God is all loving, all powerful and He knows everything. Since He is all loving He would not want innocent children to suffer. He knows about the suffering of innocent children and He has the power to prevent that suffering. But the child still suffers. So it is not logical. Evil exists and cannot be explained logically considering the omnipotence and all loving nature of God.

You are correct. They are illogical because the items you mention cannot exist at the same time no matter how many excuses philosophers have tried to create throughout the centuries. But you will make no headway here. You will be told that you simply don’t understand the good that can be brought from that child’s death, or don’t understand this, or don’t understand that about good.

Good that, BTW, an omnipotent god could have accomplished easily on his own. No need for any suffering.

 

[opusAquinas]

You are correct. They are illogical because the items you mention cannot exist at the same time no matter how many excuses philosophers have tried to create throughout the centuries. But you will make no headway here. You will be told that you simply don’t understand the good that can be brought from that child’s death, or don’t understand this, or don’t understand that about good.

Good that, BTW, an omnipotent god could have accomplished easily on his own. No need for any suffering.

There is suffering because God is punishing humanity. No one is innocent.

 

[jochoa]

Here’s a new proof I’d like to share:

1. Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2. Logic is thought.
3. Thought only comes from a mind.
   Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I’ll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

Nice work, I like it!

I especially like: If logic isn’t thought, then what is it?