A new retirement age for bishops?

[BillyT92679]

BillyT92679:

Be careful here… you’re treading close to an ultramontanist view of the Papacy. Bishops aren’t just designees of the Pope, his cabinet members overseeing the branch of the Diocese of Rome, but individuals who have full, supreme, and immediate jurisdiction over their own dioceses. The Pope CAN exercise his power “unhindered” but in actuality, that would never, ever happen, unless the Bishop was so bereft of duty.

Just to clarify my point, the Holy Father would not just willy-nilly, “depose” of Bishops unless they actually commit heresy or are completely incompetent.

 

[frommi]

BillyT92679:

Just to clarify my point, the Holy Father would not just willy-nilly, “depose” of Bishops unless they actually commit heresy or are completely incompetent.

Even the completely incompetent ones dont get deposed…

Look at Bishop Krenn of Austria…he resigned…he carries with him the “bishop emeritus” tag…and he had a seminary that was really a bathhouse.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Church eases work criteria for ex-bishops

Ranchi, March 27: Retired bishops and married men can now find employment within the Roman Catholic Church. Though such people would not be allowed into the altar, they would be re-inducted into the church’s activities.

Cardinal Telesphore P. Toppo, who returned from Rome today, said a general consensus has been evolved after a meeting with the Pope over this issue. Out of 1,045 bishops around the world who have retired from active service, those in good health would be re-deployed so that “the church and the society could gain from their rich experiences”, he added.

The general consensus was reached at a meeting between cardinals and Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican on March 23, the cardinal said.

“As per the Cannon Law,” he pointed out, “a bishop is required to submit his resignation to the Pope as soon as he turns 75. It is up to the Pope to accept the resignation. Of the 1,045 retired bishops world-wide, there are 37 in India.” He pointed out that one such retired bishop, J. Rodriguez, was based in Jamshedpur and “so involved in the various church activities that he barely finds time to shoulder additional responsibilities”.

telegraphindia.com/1060328/asp/jamshedpur/story_6023951.asp

 

[Brendan]

frommi:

So you bring up an 1860s ritual that probably hasn’t ever been used? We’ve had enough bishops do enough stupid things that it could’ve been implemented…it hasn’t.

Theologically, I think you’d get a strong argument that you can’t symbolically scrape away the gift of the Holy Spirit…it’s a gift from God…not a consecrating bishop.

No it only symbolically removed Holy Orders. But like any laicication, this person could not call himself a bishop, and no catholic could call him a bishop

Now as far as Canon Law goes…Popes work within Canon Law for the most part.

But only because they choose to, not because they are required to

So, does a Pope chance a schism by going outside the law to make a point by firing a bishop?

What kind of Catholic would risk their salvation by schism just because the Pope excercized their legimate authority?

The Pope is not the superduper Bishop…and I have a hard time picturing this happening.

As opposed to you Brendan, I think you want it to happen.

You don’t know my thoughts at all.

BTW, have you read *Pastor Aeternus * yet? It’s an infallible document from the First Vatican Council.

I would be very interested in hearing your thought on the document.

 

[frommi]

Brendan:

BTW, have you read *Pastor Aeternus * yet? It’s an infallible document from the First Vatican Council.

I would be very interested in hearing your thought on the document.

It’s not exactly an ‘infallible’ document…I wouldn’t put it up there with the Immaculate Conception insofar as tenents of the faith go.

But even that document makes it quite clear that the bishop is who is to be followed and that the Petrine office exists to maintain unity in the church…not sameness…and not to supercede the teaching authority of the Bishop.

Furthermore, Vatican II made it clear that it is not the Pontiff who is infalliable, it is the magisterium that can exercise infallibility.

I’m still trying to figure out who determines that a Bishop is not teaching in line with Rome…is that something you do Brendan? Or is there a list somewhere I can read?

 

[JoeyWarren]

I have never quite understood the concept of Retirement of a Priest much less why a Nun would retire.

Is not a Priest ordained for life? If a Priest can still say mass, even from a wheelchair, then I personally believe that they should.

I just don’t understand retirement, especially when the need for Priests is so vital…

Just don’t understand…

What is Christ retired from being High Priest of our order.

 

[frommi]

JoeyWarren:

I have never quite understood the concept of Retirement of a Priest much less why a Nun would retire.

Is not a Priest ordained for life? If a Priest can still say mass, even from a wheelchair, then I personally believe that they should.

I just don’t understand retirement, especially when the need for Priests is so vital…

Just don’t understand…

What is Christ retired from being High Priest of our order.

Remember, they don’t truly ‘retire’ they still have the authority of their ordination.

What they retire from is the office of pastor, or the office of bishop.

In many ways, a senior priest can still do a lot of good, they just don’t have to worry about the leaks, locks, and the lights.

 

[MrS]

frommi:

Remember, they don’t truly ‘retire’ they still have the authority of their ordination.

What they retire from is the office of pastor, or the office of bishop.

In many ways, a senior priest can still do a lot of good, they just don’t have to worry about the leaks, locks, and the lights.

some truth in that…

there is a parish in Arizona where the church seats about 500, the hall perhaps 250… with one priest assigned as pastor,.

There are 13 masses each weekend.

10 are celebrated by retired priests living in the area who probably enjoy the dry weather and the golf during the week.

Why the large numbers attending… it is a senior magnet, although only one mass is the TLM… and not every weekend.

 

[BillyT92679]

frommi:

It’s not exactly an ‘infallible’ document…I wouldn’t put it up there with the Immaculate Conception insofar as tenents of the faith go.

But even that document makes it quite clear that the bishop is who is to be followed and that the Petrine office exists to maintain unity in the church…not sameness…and not to supercede the teaching authority of the Bishop.

Furthermore, Vatican II made it clear that it is not the Pontiff who is infalliable, it is the magisterium that can exercise infallibility.

I’m still trying to figure out who determines that a Bishop is not teaching in line with Rome…is that something you do Brendan? Or is there a list somewhere I can read?

You’re incorrect. Pastor Aeturnus has to be followed by everyone with assent of the will. The Introductory Explanatory Note of Lumen Gentium (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION) said about the supreme pontiff that he has “full, supreme, and immediate jurisdiction overall the Universal Church, a power he can always exercise unhindered.” Now, in practice, this is not a push for ultramontanism, that is, making the Papacy completely distinct from, and totally superior to the Episcopacy. BUT, it is very defensive in posture. The Holy Father, can, if prudence dictates, go into every single Diocese and clean house.
The PONTIFF, on Faith and Morals, IS INFALLIBLE by himself, and to deny that is to deny a dogmatic article of faith. The Ordinary Magisterium is the Pope, or the Communion of Bishops with the Pope as its head. Not just one or the other, but both. And Peter is never separate from the Episcopacy in the sense that the Bishops together can form a parallel authority separate from Rome. That cannot happen.

 

[Brendan]

frommi:

It’s not exactly an ‘infallible’ document…I wouldn’t put it up there with the Immaculate Conception insofar as tenents of the faith go.

Why not, do you hold that the duly proclaimed procedings of an Eccumentical Council can teach error.

Are there different 'classes

But even that document makes it quite clear that the bishop is who is to be followed and that the Petrine office exists to maintain unity in the church…not sameness…and not to supercede the teaching authority of the Bishop.

Furthermore, Vatican II made it clear that it is not the Pontiff who is infalliable, it is the magisterium that can exercise infallibility.

Really! Lumen Gentium seems pretty clear that the excercise of the charism of Infallibily is excercised through the Holy See and through the Holy See alone.

No bishop could teach infallibly apart from the Holy See, but the Pope may teach infallibly on his own accord.

I’m still trying to figure out who determines that a Bishop is not teaching in line with Rome…is that something you do Brendan? Or is there a list somewhere I can read?

It’s pretty easy actually, is what the Bishop is teaching contrary to proclamated teachings by the Pope.

Are you really claiming that someone in Constantinople could not recognize when their Bishop Nestorius was teaching error, or the Catholics in London could not recognize that Archbishop Cranmer was preaching schism.

 

[frommi]

Brendan:

Why not, do you hold that the duly proclaimed procedings of an Eccumentical Council can teach error.

Really! Lumen Gentium seems pretty clear that the excercise of the charism of Infallibily is excercised through the Holy See and through the Holy See alone.

No bishop could teach infallibly apart from the Holy See, but the Pope may teach infallibly on his own accord.

It’s pretty easy actually, is what the Bishop is teaching contrary to proclamated teachings by the Pope.

Are you really claiming that someone in Constantinople could not recognize when their Bishop Nestorius was teaching error, or the Catholics in London could not recognize that Archbishop Cranmer was preaching schism.

Just a couple thoughts…

I don’t think the council taught in ‘error’ but I think we saw the ideas of papal primacy and collegiality further explored in later ecumenical councils and perhaps clarified a little more forcefully.

And yes, it is the Pope who can exercise the infalliblie teaching authority of the magisterium. The point I was making was that the infallibility is not a magic power that the pope receives upon his election (hey…look a bishop being elected) and installation. It’s a different kind of gift that is exercised in the fullness of the petrine office.

Not to mention that its been a lot of years since anything was declared infallible (definitive was the closest the last Pope got to it).

And what I’m saying is that if a bishop does something to break the unity of the Catholic church (let’s say ordaining a married man) that’s a problem. But a bishop who doesn’t want to withold sacraments from politicians…that doesn’t break unity with the church, and is a pastoral judgment.

 

[chicago]

Brendan:

What kind of Catholic would risk their salvation by schism just because the Pope excercized their legimate authority?

That really isn’t the question. Rather, it is one of whether the pope would be wise to exercize the authority if it would ultimately lead to a greater irreconcilable parting from the faith by many. Sometimes tough choices have to be made, and often that which had been made has either to leave well enough alone and let time and natural changes take care of things or to simply “reassign” a bishop to a new ministry (presumably with his agreement).