a new spin on a common question (the m word)

  • Thread starter Thread starter bleh_confused
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

bleh_confused

Guest
hello all!!!

getting right to the point here, this thread is going to deal with a seemingly common question on the forums…masturbation…the difference being that ill be providing a few arguments i haven’t seen used yet

im perfectly aware of the Church’s teaching on it- that it is a grave act- and ive read the part of the Catechism that talks about it as well as Humana Vitae

however, i just do not see the reasoning behind the Church’s stance. masturbation seems to have been grouped with other immoral acts throughout the years, however, i believe it has been overlooked, and when attention is given to it, one can see that it is not a horifically immoral act as is the common belief.

Here now, are my main arguments:
  1. in the list of sexual sins provided in Leviticus 18, masturbation is not included, it is not mentioned in Deuteronomy either-both books contain many specific laws, some of which deal with apparently arbitrary things. since masturbation was not mentioned, it can be concluded that it was not a matter of great importance to God
  2. (this is rather week, but i think it is worth considering) in Heberw, ‘feet’ is often times used as euphemism for penis, in 1 Samuel 24 Saul goes into the cave and, as the actual translation states, ‘covers his feet’. some say he was using the bathroom, however Samuel was with an army and according to Deuteronomy their was suppossed to be a latrine outside of camp. so why would Saul go into the cave?
  3. Matthew 5:28 says adultery begins in the heart when you look at a woman with lust. however masturbation does not always have to include fanticization, at times the natural sex drive calls for it
  4. medically, it has been shown to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, and can help the immune system, as well as increase the chances of the sperm being able to impregnate a woman, as well as help with depression and insomnia, and can help with menstral cramps for women(there are also no negative effects unless there is an addiction)
  5. psychologically, it has been shown to have no negative side effects unless it becomes an addiction, actually it has been shown to have benefits for youth
  6. it hurts no one
  7. it can be used to subdue the sex drive, meaning less of a desire for a woman (adultery) while single
  8. (MAJOR POINT) it has been shown to be done in higher mammals, making it totally natural; Bonobo chimpanzees, which share 98.4% percent of our DNA, provides some confirmation that masturbation has likely been practiced since the dawn of mankind.
    -natural law is key in Church teaching, and masturbation appears to be natural
  9. masturbation is not involved with the story of Onan
  10. the reason many people find call it un-natural and feel guilt for doing it is because of the STIGMA placed on it. it is taugh over and over that it is bad, creating a negative stigma
ADVANTAGES TO ALLOWING IT:
-less sexual tension
-health and psychological benefits
-and increase in patience for the right woman who each one of us will love with our heart, because the sex drive will not cloud our view

so there are the ten major arguments ive found which seem to support masturbation logically, yet the Church seems to teach from a illogical stand point as condemning it would seem to be jumping to conclusions

so please answer my questions, i only wish to do what God wants and this subject confuses me a great deal

thank you, and sorry for the long post
 
The most important thing is that if the Church is wrong on this, what is it right on? How do you tell? In my book, you’re not Catholic if you’re willing to question such basic tenets of belief as this. Either everything the Church teaches (with this degree of emphasis) is infallible, or nothing is.

But to address your points…

Masturbation does hurt people. For one, it is a habit which is difficult to stop when one gets married, and there is no shortage of wives around who have been hurt by their husband’s habit. (Not to mention the negative effects it has on sex in a marriage…)

Masturbation will always lead to adultery with the heart. Consider masturbating to the same mental image (or same photo) for a year in a row. It doesn’t work. Masturbation needs new and different objects to sustain it. That is why so much porn exists. And few can masturbate (much, at least) without an object at least in mind.

Higher mammals also have sex with whomever they chose. Is that a practice you suggest? The standard of higher mammals’ behavior as good and natural immediately fails when we think of a little thing called morality.

It can be used to subdue sex drive, sure. But as C.S. Lewis writes, a starving person thinks a lot about food, but so does a glutton. It will not provide relief for long–for most people, not more than 24 hours. And having to do it every 24 hours is a strange definition for a reduced sex-drive.

Having been on both sides of the coin, let me tell you that sex within a committed marriage is unimaginably better than sex without it. And I now deeply regret my previous activities. Not because some stigma society has placed on it–there is a similar stigma to going to Church during the week and a million other things Catholics do–but because I can see how it has scarred me.

Is it possible that you are trying to rationalize this so that you will feel comfortable doing it? That is, actually, the reason I first came to this website–for a “Catholic” defense of pornography, so that I might not feel bad about it.

If you believe the Church is really divine, then you have to have faith that it is correct on important teachings such as this, even though you cannot see that now. I would bet a year of paychecks that you change your mind someday, perhaps having developed a stronger faith, perhaps in a committed marriage.

Good luck trying to solve this situation, I know it can be difficult. But I want you to consider, at least for a few moments, that the Devil is whispering these arguments in your ear, and wanting you to believe them. Can you really see Christ watching you do this, and smiling down upon it? When I used to be involved in sexual immorality, I would try to push God out of my head–I had to. Today, when I am involved in Godly sexuality, I can pray during it, without interrupting or detracting from the experience. Perhaps that is a good barometer for whether a sexuality is moral or not–try to say a Hail Mary while doing it.
 
camerong said:
The most important thing is that if the Church is wrong on this, what is it right on? How do you tell? In my book, you’re not Catholic if you’re willing to question such basic tenets of belief as this. Either everything the Church teaches (with this degree of emphasis) is infallible, or nothing is.

But to address your points…

Masturbation does hurt people. For one, it is a habit which is difficult to stop when one gets married, and there is no shortage of wives around who have been hurt by their husband’s habit. (Not to mention the negative effects it has on sex in a marriage…)

Masturbation will always lead to adultery with the heart. Consider masturbating to the same mental image (or same photo) for a year in a row. It doesn’t work. Masturbation needs new and different objects to sustain it. That is why so much porn exists. And few can masturbate (much, at least) without an object at least in mind.

Higher mammals also have sex with whomever they chose. Is that a practice you suggest? The standard of higher mammals’ behavior as good and natural immediately fails when we think of a little thing called morality.

It can be used to subdue sex drive, sure. But as C.S. Lewis writes, a starving person thinks a lot about food, but so does a glutton. It will not provide relief for long–for most people, not more than 24 hours. And having to do it every 24 hours is a strange definition for a reduced sex-drive.

Having been on both sides of the coin, let me tell you that sex within a committed marriage is unimaginably better than sex without it. And I now deeply regret my previous activities. Not because some stigma society has placed on it–there is a similar stigma to going to Church during the week and a million other things Catholics do–but because I can see how it has scarred me.

Is it possible that you are trying to rationalize this so that you will feel comfortable doing it? That is, actually, the reason I first came to this website–for a “Catholic” defense of pornography, so that I might not feel bad about it.

If you believe the Church is really divine, then you have to have faith that it is correct on important teachings such as this, even though you cannot see that now. I would bet a year of paychecks that you change your mind someday, perhaps having developed a stronger faith, perhaps in a committed marriage.

Good luck trying to solve this situation, I know it can be difficult. But I want you to consider, at least for a few moments, that the Devil is whispering these arguments in your ear, and wanting you to believe them. Can you really see Christ watching you do this, and smiling down upon it? When I used to be involved in sexual immorality, I would try to push God out of my head–I had to. Today, when I am involved in Godly sexuality, I can pray during it, without interrupting or detracting from the experience. Perhaps that is a good barometer for whether a sexuality is moral or not–try to say a Hail Mary while doing it.
Click to expand...
Wow! What a great response. Many people try to rationalize against what the Church teaches only to later realize that it is God that they are trying to ignore. I really like your barometer suggestion. It gets right to the point…I will use that in many of my weak moments… God bless…teachccd
 
camerong said:
The most important thing is that if the Church is wrong on this, what is it right on? How do you tell? In my book, you’re not Catholic if you’re willing to question such basic tenets of belief as this. Either everything the Church teaches (with this degree of emphasis) is infallible, or nothing is.

But to address your points…

Masturbation does hurt people. For one, it is a habit which is difficult to stop when one gets married, and there is no shortage of wives around who have been hurt by their husband’s habit. (Not to mention the negative effects it has on sex in a marriage…)

Masturbation will always lead to adultery with the heart. Consider masturbating to the same mental image (or same photo) for a year in a row. It doesn’t work. Masturbation needs new and different objects to sustain it. That is why so much porn exists. And few can masturbate (much, at least) without an object at least in mind.

Higher mammals also have sex with whomever they chose. Is that a practice you suggest? The standard of higher mammals’ behavior as good and natural immediately fails when we think of a little thing called morality.

It can be used to subdue sex drive, sure. But as C.S. Lewis writes, a starving person thinks a lot about food, but so does a glutton. It will not provide relief for long–for most people, not more than 24 hours. And having to do it every 24 hours is a strange definition for a reduced sex-drive.

Having been on both sides of the coin, let me tell you that sex within a committed marriage is unimaginably better than sex without it. And I now deeply regret my previous activities. Not because some stigma society has placed on it–there is a similar stigma to going to Church during the week and a million other things Catholics do–but because I can see how it has scarred me.

Is it possible that you are trying to rationalize this so that you will feel comfortable doing it? That is, actually, the reason I first came to this website–for a “Catholic” defense of pornography, so that I might not feel bad about it.

If you believe the Church is really divine, then you have to have faith that it is correct on important teachings such as this, even though you cannot see that now. I would bet a year of paychecks that you change your mind someday, perhaps having developed a stronger faith, perhaps in a committed marriage.

Good luck trying to solve this situation, I know it can be difficult. But I want you to consider, at least for a few moments, that the Devil is whispering these arguments in your ear, and wanting you to believe them. Can you really see Christ watching you do this, and smiling down upon it? When I used to be involved in sexual immorality, I would try to push God out of my head–I had to. Today, when I am involved in Godly sexuality, I can pray during it, without interrupting or detracting from the experience. Perhaps that is a good barometer for whether a sexuality is moral or not–try to say a Hail Mary while doing it.
Click to expand...
Hello,

As a rule I quote a line or two. However, to do so would de emphasize the rest. This is very good.

YYY
 
bleh_confused said:
hello all!!!

getting right to the point here, this thread is going to deal with a seemingly common question on the forums…masturbation…the difference being that ill be providing a few arguments i haven’t seen used yet

im perfectly aware of the Church’s teaching on it- that it is a grave act- and ive read the part of the Catechism that talks about it as well as Humana Vitae

however, i just do not see the reasoning behind the Church’s stance. masturbation seems to have been grouped with other immoral acts throughout the years, however, i believe it has been overlooked, and when attention is given to it, one can see that it is not a horifically immoral act as is the common belief.

Here now, are my main arguments:
  1. in the list of sexual sins provided in Leviticus 18, masturbation is not included, it is not mentioned in Deuteronomy either-both books contain many specific laws, some of which deal with apparently arbitrary things. since masturbation was not mentioned, it can be concluded that it was not a matter of great importance to God
  2. (this is rather week, but i think it is worth considering) in Heberw, ‘feet’ is often times used as euphemism for penis, in 1 Samuel 24 Saul goes into the cave and, as the actual translation states, ‘covers his feet’. some say he was using the bathroom, however Samuel was with an army and according to Deuteronomy their was suppossed to be a latrine outside of camp. so why would Saul go into the cave?
  3. Matthew 5:28 says adultery begins in the heart when you look at a woman with lust. however masturbation does not always have to include fanticization, at times the natural sex drive calls for it
  4. medically, it has been shown to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, and can help the immune system, as well as increase the chances of the sperm being able to impregnate a woman, as well as help with depression and insomnia, and can help with menstral cramps for women(there are also no negative effects unless there is an addiction)
  5. psychologically, it has been shown to have no negative side effects unless it becomes an addiction, actually it has been shown to have benefits for youth
  6. it hurts no one
  7. it can be used to subdue the sex drive, meaning less of a desire for a woman (adultery) while single
  8. (MAJOR POINT) it has been shown to be done in higher mammals, making it totally natural; Bonobo chimpanzees, which share 98.4% percent of our DNA, provides some confirmation that masturbation has likely been practiced since the dawn of mankind.
    -natural law is key in Church teaching, and masturbation appears to be natural
  9. masturbation is not involved with the story of Onan
  10. the reason many people find call it un-natural and feel guilt for doing it is because of the STIGMA placed on it. it is taugh over and over that it is bad, creating a negative stigma
ADVANTAGES TO ALLOWING IT:
-less sexual tension
-health and psychological benefits
-and increase in patience for the right woman who each one of us will love with our heart, because the sex drive will not cloud our view

so there are the ten major arguments ive found which seem to support masturbation logically, yet the Church seems to teach from a illogical stand point as condemning it would seem to be jumping to conclusions

so please answer my questions, i only wish to do what God wants and this subject confuses me a great deal

thank you, and sorry for the long post
Click to expand...
The main reason people (and animals) do this is because it mimics the exact same physical feeling in the body’s central nervous system as sex which is extremely pleasurable. This solo sexual activity is also exclusively self centered and if there is no marriage involved, it harms no other human being whatsoever. Furthermore the vast majority of single adults and a good number of married people endulge on at least an occasional basis. Is is physically beneficial to the body’s reproductive organs? Some medical professionals say “yes”, others say “not necessarily”. It appears that the jury is out.

However, we are not animals. I believe that masturbation is a sin against God because it is a misuse of our sexual facilities. Many people who scream out about the evils of masturbation don’t think twice about overeating which is also a sin. All sin is offensive to God. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God!

I agree with a lot of what you say in the above post but the problem is that lust fuels masturbation and masturbation fuels more lust. This is like a blow torch that burns hotter and hotter. Pornography almost always becomes part of this habit in young men and a growing number of women. Magazine ads featuring pretty models with tight jeans and fuzzy sweaters are no longer the object of the lustful eye as they were when I was growing up decades ago.
These days it’s internet porn, which is the most destructive, violent and degrading material a young man can consume.

If masturbation is given a green light by the moral leaders, where will it all stop? "…whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31) How can masturbation be harmonized with this verse? It simply cannot. I believe the catholic church is right to condemn this behavior.
 
to those above…

firstly God bless you for taking the time to answer my questions and arguments, it helps a lot

however, the idea for my animal argument is this: without a partner, the sex drive naturally builds itself up. naturally, we release this. if we go against the natural feelings, sexual tension builds up. therefore, i conclude there is some sort of balance between total liscense, and just oppressed sexual tension

secondly, it doesn’t have to be all selfish. the sex drive is strong, particularly in adolescence. when dating, if one does not release the oppressed tension they may feel a need to rush into marriage, or they may trick themselves into believing sins such as premarital sex are fine. the point is, the sex drive can clog one’s mind, but masturbation can be used just to flush the hormones. if done wright, it can be used not to stir the sex drive, but to subdue it so one can see someone of the opposite sex deeper than just a physical level, but if the sex drive is their persistantly nagging at a person, they will only be more likely to fall into sin.

also, some of you seem to be concluding that i say porn is ok. by no means do i state this, it is a terrible thing that undermines women. i speak of masturbation subjectively, without fantization or porn, and when considered in that way, i think it is fine.

my marker is this, if one does it to such a degree they need pictures or fantasies for stimulation, then it is time to stop, however if done just because there is sexual tension, it seems to be fine
 
Spirithound said:
How does one masturbate without fantasizing? A man is not aroused 24/7.
Click to expand...
like i said, build up of sex drive. at some point their is enough tension that just release of that tension and pleasure are enough
 
Bleh_confused, I think your arguments are off-base.

The reason why masturbation is not mentioned with absolute clarity in Scripture is, I believe, quite simple: masturbation is a very pastorally embarrassing topic. The Bible is not a handbook of doctrine written in a theological vacuum. It is a collection of books written by human beings in a particular setting for a particular reason for a particular audience. Most of them were written for a wide audience containing all sorts of people; the Biblical authors and editors didn’t know they were writing Scripture, and they weren’t about to just throw in a discussion of a very personal, very embarrassing sin that could scandalize someone or distract from the main thrust of the work. Masturbation does not have to be condemned unequivocally by name in the Bible for Catholics to accept it as seriously wrong; we do not teach sola scriptura. The Catholic faith’s understanding of masturbation follows necessarily from the Christian and Biblical understanding of sex.

Masturbation is not wrong because it generally involves fantasizing; it is a breach of sexual morality with or without lustful thoughts. I believe that has always been the Christian understanding.

Masturbation’s reducing the risk of prostate cancer, as well as most of the other medical and psychological benefits with which it correlates, are not specific to masturbation. Rather, it is ejaculation that reduces risk of prostate cancer; it is regular sexual activity that provides those psychological benefits. Child molestation provides all the same benefits as masturbation (at least reduction of prostate cancer risk), yet it is wrong, because it is wrong for reasons unrelated to its health benefits and those health benefits cannot make it right. My point is not to claim that masturbation is wrong for all the same reasons child molestation is (that would be ridiculous); my point is to show that health benefits do not make an act moral if it is immoral for unrelated reasons, especially if the health benefits are not even confined to that particular act (but are rather, in this case, a benefit given to married couples who engage in regular marital sex).

The Church’s claim is not that masturbation is psychologically unhealthy (psychology is not the Church’s purview), but rather, that it is spiritually unhealthy.

If an act is spiritually unhealthy, it does not harm no one. It harms the individual who does it, it harms those around him by cutting him off from sanctifying grace and eroding his ability to love others, and it harms the whole Body of Christ, of which he is a part.

Masturbation can only “subdue” libido for a matter of hours. Masturbating regularly drastically increases libido in general, which will just make purity harder. What’s more, speaking from personal experience, let me say that when one stops regularly masturbating his sex drive changes after a while; sexual feelings no longer build up constantly; nocturnal emissions simply come occasionally. Avoiding masturbation becomes easy.

This is perhaps the most important point in this post: that is not what natural law is. Natural law has nothing whatsoever to do with how animals act in the wild. That is not the definition of natural under which masturbation is unnatural.

As for masturbation’s having been practiced since the beginning of mankind, I’m sure it has been; most sins have.

There may be people who avoid and condemn masturbation only because of the stigma on it. But it is equally true that the stigma originally developed around it because the Judeo-Christian tradition correctly discerned that it was wrong and taught that, and many devout Christians avoid it not because of the stigma but because they believe it is wrong.

I realize that I have not given a positive argument in this post as to why masturbation is wrong; I leave that to others.
 
I see most of the points are covered so I’ll just touch on the Onan one. True Onan did not try to masturbate, but the point with that story is that he wasn’t open to life. In the same way, if a person masturbates they are not open to life, and such was not planned by God. So one can gather from that story that it is offensive to God, when we are not open to life.
 
“Masturbation is not wrong because it generally involves fantasizing; it is a breach of sexual morality with or without lustful thoughts.”

"it is spiritually unhealthy.

how is it unhealthy? my argument is that we think it’s unhealthy because of the stigma typically associated with it…as you seem to alude to when you say it was embarassing. also, how does it breach sexual morality?

and to the Onan argument, most modern moralists contend that the sin dealt with contraception. life should have occured with the alternatiave, however with masturbation the alternative (not doing it) does not necesarily involve the creation of a life. i agree that if masturbation is used to avoid pro creation then in that instance it is wrong

oh…and the natural law argument, i apologize i think i phrased that wrong. what i was meaning to say was that it was natural for someone to masturbate, because it has been shown that animals do it when the sex drive builds up
 
You’ve failed to address the only real point that should matter–its a fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a congregation of like-minded folks who worship together because they agree on most things, and debate the merits of different beliefs with one another. The Catholic Church is not the Lutheran Church or the Episcopalian Church or any group that has the ability to change their beliefs because they think that certain beliefs are outdated or silly. Catholics believe the fundamental teachings of Catholicism are straight from God, and by their very definition, cannot be wrong. At least according to our belief.

Do you question that the Church is really divine? Or that the the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church are divine?

Now, that is not at all to say this position is not defensible. It is. But will you be overwhelmingly convinced of this position from arguments on this website alone? Likely, no. If that worked, everyone on here would have “Catholic” next to their listing for religion. I wanted you to keep that in mind.

Addressing your particular arguments…
Your best point is that it relieves sexual tension. That it is “natural” or present in higher mammals has very little value. There are so many behaviors that could be supported by such a standard, it is meaningless. Murder, adultery (though such a term is itself meaningless in that context), stealing, anger, lust… all at least as natural, if not more so, than masturbation.

So addressing sexual tension, your best point. I would argue that all tendencies to sin seem alike in this way. Crave material objects? Go buy something, it will make you feel better for awhile. The only long term solution is to make your life about something other than material goods. Feel anger? Punching a wall helps at first. But studies–and individual’s experience–show that giving in to anger and “releasing it” makes the person only more prone to anger. (Actually, this is a very interesting parallel to lust). Almost all other types of sin have some kind of “release” to make the sin less alluring–but only at first.

Let me also reiterate my point about masturbating hurting marriage. There are many people who can speak to this. Sex therapists talk particularly about the reinforcement–sometimes nearly unbreakable even with therapy–of sex as a drive towards an end, such that men are, well, unable to control the end of that drive, if you catch my drift. Laughable, perhaps, but I would wager that millions of wives see this as a significant impediment to a healthy sex life. And it is very much adversely affected by a prior masturbation habit.

I wanted to address something else. You act as if lessening temptation is a holy goal. Avoiding temptation, no doubt, is. But temptation is a powerful spiritual tool. Why do you think God allows us into it? (He does). By learning to resit temptation to premarital sex, or masturbation, as it were, we learn to resist the temptation to trust God. Being subjected to temptation is a powerful reminder of our vulnerability, which is perhaps one of the greatest gifts we can actually receive in life. Never is a man so holy as when he realizes he is powerless to overcome temptations on his own. Your quest to avoid temptation is going in the wrong direction–you are outsmarting sin, when your only real hope is to out-pray it.

I wish I could spend more time on this topic. I also wish you the best and will pray for you tonight.
 
bleh_confused said:
“it is spiritually unhealthy.”

how is it unhealthy? my argument is that we think it’s unhealthy because of the stigma typically associated with it…as you seem to alude to when you say it was embarassing. also, how does it breach sexual morality?
Click to expand...
And why do you think there is a stigma attached to it? Perhaps because from ancient times it was recognized as a mockery of the marital embrace, and therefore immoral.
and to the Onan argument, most modern moralists contend that the sin dealt with contraception. life should have occurred with the alternative, however with masturbation the alternative (not doing it) does not necessarily involve the creation of a life. i agree that if masturbation is used to avoid pro creation then in that instance it is wrong
Click to expand...
I would like to see your list of “most modern Catholic moralists” please.

What is coitus interruptus if not basically masturbation mostly with a partner?
oh…and the natural law argument, i apologize i think i phrased that wrong. what i was meaning to say was that it was natural for someone to masturbate, because it has been shown that animals do it when the sex drive builds up
Click to expand...
Natural does not mean moral. We don’t take our cues from animals.
 
Have you listened to or seen Christopher West’s theology of the body? It’s worth listening to. It will help you make a more informed decision about these arguments you’re proposing, and help you understand Church teaching better.

christopherwest.com/

I’m serious, if you dont understand why the church teaches what it does (like most people), check it out. you can download a mp3 if you sign up.
 
bleh_confused said:
  1. (MAJOR POINT) it has been shown to be done in higher mammals, making it totally natural; Bonobo chimpanzees, which share 98.4% percent of our DNA, provides some confirmation that masturbation has likely been practiced since the dawn of mankind.
    -natural law is key in Church teaching, and masturbation appears to be natural
Click to expand...
Oh my…where does one begin with this type of logic.

A cloud is 100% water, and a ripe watermelon is about 92% water. They are not the same though are they? I certainly hope that watermelons do not start falling from the sky!

Chimpanzees are not human, and while God created them with similarities to humans, we are not evolved from them, they do not have souls, and they are free to do what they want with their private parts.

Your argument about natural law doesn’t hold water, or even a watermelon!
 
You know this thread says a “new spin”, but so far the questions are pretty common. 🤷
 
Frankr409 said:
Chimpanzees are not human, and while God created them with similarities to humans, we are not evolved from them, they do not have souls, and they are free to do what they want with their private parts.
Click to expand...
You lose credibility when you try to deny evolution. The Church doesn’t.
 
“a mockery of the marital embrace, and therefore immoral.”

this is the point to the whole thread…HOW IS IT A MOCKERY? i dont see how it defiles anything, if it defiled me or my future wife or anything of that nature of course it would be wrong. however when done without fantizisation the only thing that is accomplished are the subjective effects, which are release of sexual tension as well as pleasure and health benefits. when porn or fantasies are involved then yes it begins to degrade women and hurts the mind, but subjectively i dont see how it hurts anyone.

“What is coitus interruptus if not basically masturbation mostly with a partner?”
-it is practically a form of contraception, which yes, is wrong. you’re having sex with a women, which should lead to life without coitus interruptus.
not masturbating will not increase the chances of life (actually masturbation can help with fertility), without doing/using coitus interruptus there would be a chance for life

since the alternative to masturbaton does not guarantee life, it doesn’t mock the marital imbrace, which should guarantee life.

“Do you question that the Church is really divine? Or that the the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church are divine?”
-no no no no no, the Church is obviously divine, however is it run on earth by humans, and humans can make mistakes.

“I also wish you the best and will pray for you tonight.”
thank you very much, God Bless you

and to everyone…if masturbation is bad, what are we suppossed to do with the sex drive until marriage? the Church offers a critique of it, yet it proposes no alternative- just to not do anything. this is a ridiculous expectation, we have no idea how long it will be until we get married, to do nothing only will lead to a drive that continues to build in us. if masturbation really is bad, then what is a alternative for the single person?
 
bleh_confused said:
“Do you question that the Church is really divine? Or that the the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church are divine?”
-no no no no no, the Church is obviously divine, however is it run on earth by humans, and humans can make mistakes.
Click to expand...
Those two beliefs are not compatible, at least as you take them. You say the Church is divine, yet hold that the Magisterium, in its most fundamental teachings, can be wrong? Either the Church is divine and so are the teachings it claims to be infallible, or the Church is not divine, and all of its teachings are up to debate.

When I first became Catholic and had trouble with lots of positions the Church held, I ignored those individual problems and learned the extremely convincing reasons why the Church is divine. When I trusted the credibility of the speaker (i.e. the Church) only then could I really evaluate the message. That is a much more appropriate route to discussing these topics, I think, than trying to attack each one by one. They are all part of a larger system, and if you deny fundamental aspects of the larger system, it is impossible to grasp the smaller parts.

I suspect, but forgive me if I am mistaken, that you have the view so many Catholics hold–the Church is generally right on things, but is pretty old-fashioned and prude when it comes to some things, like masturbation, condom use, etc. Or, perhaps, these are private things the Church shouldn’t be concerned with. Do you see the problem with such a position?

The Church teaches that masturbation may be a mortal sin which puts your everlasting soul in jeopardy. If you do not trust the Church for guidance on salvation, what can you trust it on?
bleh_confused said:
and to everyone…if masturbation is bad, what are we suppossed to do with the sex drive until marriage? the Church offers a critique of it, yet it proposes no alternative- just to not do anything. this is a ridiculous expectation, we have no idea how long it will be until we get married, to do nothing only will lead to a drive that continues to build in us. if masturbation really is bad, then what is a alternative for the single person?
Click to expand...
You act as if the sex drive is like a rain gauge which fills up and needs to be emptied periodically. This is not the case. I think we think of it this way primarily because that is how we have seen it in non-Church settings. (“I’m breaking a long dry spell man…” “I haven’t had sex in months, I need this…”) If that were AT ALL the case, how do you think priests or nuns go their entire lives without sexual release? If several weeks or a month is unbearable to you, what must 30 years be to them!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top