a new spin on a common question (the m word)

[prettylarge]

Does your wife know you’re doing this? There are many wives on these forums who have been devastated by their husbands viewing porn and masturbating.

It’s strange how modern society likes to view the Church as against sex, yet when we talk about what a big deal and how holy sex is, people say to lighten up…If only everyone valued sex as much as the Church does!

Yes, my wife does know I masturbate. I tell her that I will do it and tell her not to disturb me. She has no problem with me watching porn and masturbating, because she knows that she can’t have sex with me every time I want. My wife masturbates as well and she sometimes like to watch porn before we have sex. I don’t have a problem with that either, but I find it kind of weird to be honest (watching it before sex). But I don’t see it as a problem.

I don’t understand why women would be so upset with their husbands masturbating and watching porn. I would say that the GREAT majority of men do it.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Yes, my wife does know I masturbate. I tell her that I will do it and tell her not to disturb me. She has no problem with me watching porn and masturbating, because she knows that she can’t have sex with me every time I want. My wife masturbates as well and she sometimes like to watch porn before we have sex. I don’t have a problem with that either, but I find it kind of weird to be honest (watching it before sex). But I don’t see it as a problem.

I don’t understand why women would be so upset with their husbands masturbating and watching porn. I would say that the GREAT majority of men do it.

Wow, I feel bad for you and your wife. It’s obvious you both don’t respect your bodies and view them simply as objects of pleasure. The reason you don’t understand why women have trouble with thier husband’s masturbation problems is because you lack the knowledge, or refuse to believe, how sacred the body is and why using it for sin is wrong.

I pray I will never have this attitude towards my body or my future wife’s body(that is if I am truly called to be married)

Here’s a little food thought: The Catholic Church sees many people leave her, not to mention a lot of hate, over this issue(masturbation). So why in the world would the Church be so strict on maintaining that masturbation is a mortal sin if it only hurts Church in that respect. The only logical explanation is that She must have some concrete reason to uphold such a teaching that is so contrary to society.

 

[Luke_K]

Yes, my wife does know I masturbate. I tell her that I will do it and tell her not to disturb me. She has no problem with me watching porn and masturbating, because she knows that she can’t have sex with me every time I want. My wife masturbates as well and she sometimes like to watch porn before we have sex. I don’t have a problem with that either, but I find it kind of weird to be honest (watching it before sex). But I don’t see it as a problem.

I don’t understand why women would be so upset with their husbands masturbating and watching porn. I would say that the GREAT majority of men do it.

That saddens me. Thinking of my future wife has been a great part of my desire to be chaste. I just know that she will be worth saving myself for, whoever she is…My chastity will be such a great gift for her- to be able to say that my sexuality and desires are for her and her alone!

Your reasoning sounds childish. “She has no problem with me watching porn and masturbating, because she knows that she can’t have sex with me every time I want.” Why do you have to have an orgasm every time you want one? It’s like a kid that has to have a toy he just saw on a commercial or who can’t wait to eat his dessert before his vegetables. You need to change your mindset from one that says you have to indulge your lust every time you feel it to one that is in control. Grow up!

 

[wolters1]

The most important thing is that if the Church is wrong on this, what is it right on? How do you tell?

Either everything the Church teaches (with this degree of emphasis) is infallible, or nothing is.

Catholics may accept the infallibility of the Pope and have faith in God, but there is not an expectation that Catholics have faith in the infallibility of man. Not only is there nothing wrong with questioning man’s understanding of God, but it only hurts the Church if the Church or its members respond, as you have, to an attempt to understand a tenet of the Church’s teaching. In centuries past it may have been enough to tell an uneducated and illiterate mob to “have faith” with no explanation. In an educated, literate, and astute society, that is unacceptable and the layity have the same right as the clergy to examine the bases for their beliefs.

In my book, you’re not Catholic if you’re willing to question such basic tenets of belief as this.

Now that’s not very Catholic of you, is it? Nobody who sins, or has a crisis of faith, is a Catholic in “your book”? Wow. Maybe you need to get some perspective.

 

[G01]

Yes, my wife does know I masturbate. I tell her that I will do it and tell her not to disturb me. She has no problem with me watching porn and masturbating, because she knows that she can’t have sex with me every time I want. My wife masturbates as well and she sometimes like to watch porn before we have sex. I don’t have a problem with that either, but I find it kind of weird to be honest (watching it before sex). But I don’t see it as a problem.

I don’t understand why women would be so upset with their husbands masturbating and watching porn. I would say that the GREAT majority of men do it.

OK. (Since you posted this on the internet, I’ll assume you have no problem with people commenting about it.) Don’t you see the problem here?

You are supporting the view (whether you want to or not) that sex is something YOU should have when YOU want it, and if your wife doesn’t also want to have sex, then YOU should be able to still have fun.

No. It is something BOTH OF YOU should have, when BOTH OF YOU want it. It is an act that is meant for TWO people together.

You are instead treating it as something that two people do individually at the same time and place, and if one can’t be there, o well, go on without them.

The Church teaching on masturbation is as it is in part because the this attitude toward sex is wrong. One can argue that masturbation helps develop this kind of attitude toward sex.

 

[Shlomey]

hello all!!!

getting right to the point here, this thread is going to deal with a seemingly common question on the forums…masturbation…the difference being that ill be providing a few arguments i haven’t seen used yet

im perfectly aware of the Church’s teaching on it- that it is a grave act- and ive read the part of the Catechism that talks about it as well as Humana Vitae

however, i just do not see the reasoning behind the Church’s stance. masturbation seems to have been grouped with other immoral acts throughout the years, however, i believe it has been overlooked, and when attention is given to it, one can see that it is not a horifically immoral act as is the common belief.

Here now, are my main arguments:

1. in the list of sexual sins provided in Leviticus 18, masturbation is not included, it is not mentioned in Deuteronomy either-both books contain many specific laws, some of which deal with apparently arbitrary things. since masturbation was not mentioned, it can be concluded that it was not a matter of great importance to God
2. (this is rather week, but i think it is worth considering) in Heberw, ‘feet’ is often times used as euphemism for penis, in 1 Samuel 24 Saul goes into the cave and, as the actual translation states, ‘covers his feet’. some say he was using the bathroom, however Samuel was with an army and according to Deuteronomy their was suppossed to be a latrine outside of camp. so why would Saul go into the cave?
3. Matthew 5:28 says adultery begins in the heart when you look at a woman with lust. however masturbation does not always have to include fanticization, at times the natural sex drive calls for it
4. medically, it has been shown to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, and can help the immune system, as well as increase the chances of the sperm being able to impregnate a woman, as well as help with depression and insomnia, and can help with menstral cramps for women(there are also no negative effects unless there is an addiction)
5. psychologically, it has been shown to have no negative side effects unless it becomes an addiction, actually it has been shown to have benefits for youth
6. it hurts no one
7. it can be used to subdue the sex drive, meaning less of a desire for a woman (adultery) while single
8. (MAJOR POINT) it has been shown to be done in higher mammals, making it totally natural; Bonobo chimpanzees, which share 98.4% percent of our DNA, provides some confirmation that masturbation has likely been practiced since the dawn of mankind.
   -natural law is key in Church teaching, and masturbation appears to be natural
9. masturbation is not involved with the story of Onan
10. the reason many people find call it un-natural and feel guilt for doing it is because of the STIGMA placed on it. it is taugh over and over that it is bad, creating a negative stigma

ADVANTAGES TO ALLOWING IT:
-less sexual tension
-health and psychological benefits
-and increase in patience for the right woman who each one of us will love with our heart, because the sex drive will not cloud our view

so there are the ten major arguments ive found which seem to support masturbation logically, yet the Church seems to teach from a illogical stand point as condemning it would seem to be jumping to conclusions

so please answer my questions, i only wish to do what God wants and this subject confuses me a great deal

thank you, and sorry for the long post

The bold part is all you need to know. The Church does not have to explain everything to every single person. You are called to obedience. And remember that God does not owe you salvation.

So quit the rationalization of sin.

 

[fix]

so please answer my questions, i only wish to do what God wants and this subject confuses me a great deal

thank you, and sorry for the long post

1. Your problem is not about an immoral sexual act. Your problem is one of authority.
2. The ends do not jusify the means.
3. Will following the teachings of Christ, through His Church, cause you guilt or cause you to have unfulfilled desires?

 

[bleh_confused]

The bold part is all you need to know. The Church does not have to explain everything to every single person. You are called to obedience. And remember that God does not owe you salvation.

So quit the rationalization of sin.

“Catholics may accept the infallibility of the Pope and have faith in God, but there is not an expectation that Catholics have faith in the infallibility of man. Not only is there nothing wrong with questioning man’s understanding of God, but it only hurts the Church if the Church or its members respond, as you have, to an attempt to understand a tenet of the Church’s teaching. In centuries past it may have been enough to tell an uneducated and illiterate mob to “have faith” with no explanation. In an educated, literate, and astute society, that is unacceptable and the layity have the same right as the clergy to examine the bases for their beliefs.”

that person pretty much said it all. i’m sorry, but in no sentence, chapter, or book in the Bible does Jesus or anyone says masturbation is bad, or for that matter what conditions should be standing when one has sex. and, ill be honest, i won’t roll over and just accept what the Church says, it has to make sense, Aquinas himself said that every moral act can be reasoned

 

[bleh_confused]

I’m sure you realize that what you do to get that pleasure is mimicking the marital embrace…

From chastity.com: “We can not justify a physical sin by mentally distracting ourselves from our actions. It’s like asking if it’s okay to shoplift a CD as long as you are thinking about feeding the homeless. Your mind may be doing one thing, but your actions say another. You could even compare it to the kiss of Judas. His body showed love to Christ, but his intentions were full of sin. When you masturbate while trying not to lust, it’s kind of like doing the reverse. You are supposedly doing something noble with your mind, and something disordered with the gift of your sexuality.”

Don’t forget that our bodies have been created in the image of God- male and female- so much so that God himself was willing to embody himself as Jesus. Our physical actions contain intrinsic meaning. Masturbating is like trying to shake hands with, hug, or kiss yourself. These physical actions are meant to be shared with other people. They are all God’s gift to us so that we can share love through our bodies. Willfully masturbating is so incredibly much more disordered than those other things mentioned, because the built-in purpose of the sex organs is to create life and bond the two people who are creating that life in order to strengthen their relationship for raising the children.

Using our sexual organs with ourselves becomes the absolute antithesis of what the physical act is saying. The use of your own hands becomes the female, and the pleasure becomes its own end, rather than being there because the act reproduces the species and bonds the pair together.

Speaking of which, you are a big fan of using evolution to justify morality, so why don’t you accept that our bodies make sex pleasurable because it propagates the species? The orgasm is what gets us to make babies! It’s what nature intended, right?
QUOTE]

i’ll give you that last point, its true, but its not hindering me from procreating. also mimicking doesn’t have to mean mocking.

and no offense to you or your source, but you quoted a Catholic website. that would be like asking a car maker whether or not their car was good, of course they’ll say its good. and a dilema with beginning of that source you cited is that they start out by assuming it is sinful

 

[bleh_confused]

1. Your problem is not about an immoral sexual act. Your problem is one of authority.
2. The ends do not jusify the means.
3. Will following the teachings of Christ, through His Church, cause you guilt or cause you to have unfulfilled desires?

to number 3- no it will not, but is doing it so much worse?

 

[wolters1]

“Catholics may accept the infallibility of the Pope and have faith in God, but there is not an expectation that Catholics have faith in the infallibility of man. Not only is there nothing wrong with questioning man’s understanding of God, but it only hurts the Church if the Church or its members respond, as you have, to an attempt to understand a tenet of the Church’s teaching. In centuries past it may have been enough to tell an uneducated and illiterate mob to “have faith” with no explanation. In an educated, literate, and astute society, that is unacceptable and the layity have the same right as the clergy to examine the bases for their beliefs.”

that person pretty much said it all. i’m sorry, but in no sentence, chapter, or book in the Bible does Jesus or anyone says masturbation is bad, or for that matter what conditions should be standing when one has sex. and, ill be honest, i won’t roll over and just accept what the Church says, it has to make sense, Aquinas himself said that every moral act can be reasoned

I’m not saying you’re right. I think it’s pretty clear that any act which spills the seed of man is immoral as far as the Catholic Church is concerned (and, therefore, as far as God is concerned). I am saying, however, that to a reasonable extent it is appropriate to relate to someone who asks the reasons for the Church’s beliefs. An appropriate answer is not “The Pope[/church] said so” but rather “the Pope/Church says so because … and the Pope/Church bases that interpretation of X on Y.”

Having described to you the textual/factual/whatever basis for the belief, and the analysis behind it, it is sufficient to end the discussion there. As a Catholic you either accept the teaching, including the fact that you may be sinning, work within the Church (to the extent appropriate) to change it, or leave the Church.

Some of the responses to your question have been helpful, others have been unhelpful. My comment was directed to those unhelpful, holier than thou, responses from people who follow, but do not understand, the Church’s teachings.

 

[Monica4316]

God made sex as an opportunity for two people to express self giving love, and bring a new life into the world.

one person seeking self gratification goes completely against it.

therefore it’s a sin…

 

[camerong]

Catholics may accept the infallibility of the Pope and have faith in God, but there is not an expectation that Catholics have faith in the infallibility of man. Not only is there nothing wrong with questioning man’s understanding of God, but it only hurts the Church if the Church or its members respond, as you have, to an attempt to understand a tenet of the Church’s teaching. In centuries past it may have been enough to tell an uneducated and illiterate mob to “have faith” with no explanation. In an educated, literate, and astute society, that is unacceptable and the layity have the same right as the clergy to examine the bases for their beliefs.

My point, as I discuss in nearly every post on this thread, is that the evidence for Catholicism being true is far greater than the evidence that masturbation or any other sin is wrong. The entire world has been debating whether certain acts are right or wrong for thousands of years and is completely lost. I very much suspect the OP will never come to see that masturbation is wrong until he accepts the divinity of the Church in all teachings it claims are infallible–the lack of this belief is why virtually all non-Catholics see masturbation as acceptable, as do very many Catholics. As I have said elsewhere on this very thread, the starting point of the discussion should be that it is covered by an infallible teaching. I never, ever said it should be the ending point. And, of course, please noticed that I gave a detailed defense of the Church’s teachings in my very first response. When that response–and many others from several talented and well-spoken Catholics–failed to move the OP, I decided it was appropriate to re-assert the futility of evaluating such important matters using our reasoning alone.

Let me again say: The Catholic Church has declared that its teaching on masturbation is divinely inspired and infallible. If one is Catholic and disputes this, it is not a question of “man’s understanding of God,” as you assert, but rather is a question of the Church’s claim to divinity. It is, of course, entirely appropriate to discuss the Church’s teachings as they relate to us, and the reasons we can see for and against them. But at the end of the day, it is not logic or arguments that converts the sinner or comforts the weary, but FAITH, in Christ and His Church. To claim otherwise is folly.

 

[camerong]

Now that’s not very Catholic of you, is it?

Wow. Maybe you need to get some perspective.

Some of the responses to your question have been helpful, others have been unhelpful. My comment was directed to those unhelpful, holier than thou, responses from people who follow, but do not understand, the Church’s teachings.

Please refrain from personal attacks. Thank you.

 

[wolters1]

Please refrain from personal attacks. Thank you.

Condemning someone as “not Catholic” is a personal attack. Let’s refrain from that, shall we? Thanks.

 

[wolters1]

It is, of course, entirely appropriate to discuss the Church’s teachings as they relate to us, and the reasons we can see for and against them. But at the end of the day, it is not logic or arguments that converts the sinner or comforts the weary, but FAITH, in Christ and His Church. To claim otherwise is folly.

A church of men…

and, as I said:

Having described to you the textual/factual/whatever basis for the belief, and the analysis behind it, it is sufficient to end the discussion there. As a Catholic you either accept the teaching, including the fact that you may be sinning, work within the Church (to the extent appropriate) to change it, or leave the Church.

 

[camerong]

Looking back I could have used better wording, and for that I was wrong. I never intended to attack anyone, and I apologize to the OP for such careless language. Although I stand by my assertion that anyone who–at least deliberately–rejects fundamental tenets of Catholicism is not, “in my book,” a Catholic. It strains credibility to come up with a definition of Catholicism includes those who don’t believe in the Church.

A church of men…

In my opinion, and according to the Catholic teaching as I understand it, the Church is Christ’s Body on earth. It is made of men inasmuch as the Eucharist is made of bread. True, the people of Church–even bishops or the pope–make mistakes and are fallible, but I would insist that this is not the “Church” acting, but its members. When the *Church *declares masturbation is wrong, it is not “a church of men” making this declaration, it is Christ. And, come to think of it, this is arguably the MOST fundamental teaching of Catholicism.

 

[Spirithound]

and no offense to you or your source, but you quoted a Catholic website. that would be like asking a car maker whether or not their car was good, of course they’ll say its good. and a dilema with beginning of that source you cited is that they start out by assuming it is sinful

The Catholic Church possesses all truth. Why should we go outside to find it?

 

[Luke_K]

and no offense to you or your source, but you quoted a Catholic website. that would be like asking a car maker whether or not their car was good, of course they’ll say its good. and a dilema with beginning of that source you cited is that they start out by assuming it is sinful

Does the author of that quote think masturbation is bad because he’s Catholic, or is one of the reasons he’s Catholic because he agrees with the Church’s teaching on sexuality?

The car maker may work for that company because he thinks they make good cars. What is the cause and what is the effect?

That website has its reasons for rejecting masturbation. If I quoted an atheist website, how would that be any less biased?

 

[chessmane4e5]

“Catholics may accept the infallibility of the Pope and have faith in God, but there is not an expectation that Catholics have faith in the infallibility of man. Not only is there nothing wrong with questioning man’s understanding of God, but it only hurts the Church if the Church or its members respond, as you have, to an attempt to understand a tenet of the Church’s teaching. In centuries past it may have been enough to tell an uneducated and illiterate mob to “have faith” with no explanation. In an educated, literate, and astute society, that is unacceptable and the layity have the same right as the clergy to examine the bases for their beliefs.”

that person pretty much said it all. i’m sorry, but in no sentence, chapter, or book in the Bible does Jesus or anyone says masturbation is bad, or for that matter what conditions should be standing when one has sex. and, ill be honest, i won’t roll over and just accept what the Church says, it has to make sense, Aquinas himself said that every moral act can be reasoned

I think you mis-read what the Catechism is saying. We can question in order to better understand, but not to justify. Also, I am wondering exactly what that first line means

"Catholics may accept the infallibility of the Pope and have faith in God, but there is not an expectation that Catholics have faith in the infallibility of man.

I am struggling with the word “may”, it sounds like we do not have to accept infallibility of the pope. I know this is not true, so I can only surmise it is saying, we are to accept infallibility and faith in God, but we should question man. I am not sure.

The argument that “Jesus didn’t say not to do it” does not work. If Jesus did not say something, we can not assume it must be okay. Jesus did not talk about abortion or smoking crack, but we know those things are bad.

One reason for not mentioning masturbation was that it was known to be wrong. Why would Jesus spend time teaching something that everyone knew was wrong? Jesus focused on the issues of the day. But this is why He founded a living Church, so it could adapt to the current problems of society and guide the people.