A new word to debate - demographics in europe

[straggleyway]

In recent weeks, ive had a number of interesting debates with religious types and I’d be interested in your thoughts here. I have no religion, so to be clear, I dont believe any gods exist.

One thing that really tires me is the debate between believers and non-believers is that no one discusses demographics in europe. Surely this is the most important issue? If I dont believe and you do - who cares? The really interesting thing is what happens to the majority. And in Europe the trend of the last 150 years is a huge decline in religiosity. By “religiosity”, I mean the quality of being religious.

In Europe, people are using religous ideas less and less to address questions. We have analysis from Voas et al. esr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/2/155 from last year showing each generation is less religious than the last. You just have to go into a catholic church in the UK - where is the 21 to 45 age group? They are simply not there. The average age of those attending is probably around 58? Of course, there many new types of evangelical “house church” that are very popular - but not in the same numbers.

This raises the question what is going to happen to the demographics of religion in Europe as older generations pass away? What will happen with the transmission of religious ideas to the next generation?

Obviously, this hasnt worked. In about 20 years or so, there is going to be a very large drop in christian numbers - unlike anything Europe has seen. It is very likely that Islam will become most popular religion, simply because there will not be enough Christians to compete for the top place. The majority, however, will describe themselves as having no religion. As Voas shows in the reference above - they wont believe in ‘gods’ but will describe themselves as spiritual or something similar. They will have what is described in the literature as “fuzzy faith”.

Also the Churches will have to change - how can the Vatican be based in Italy, when there are few Catholics left in Europe? The Vatican has moved before - could it be moved to Africa or the Philippines where there is huge growth in catholic numbers? There is growth in christian numbers but it is simply not in Europe. It is in Asia and Africa. Moreover, the Evangelical churches are outperforming the catholics at an impressive rate. And the trend in Europe of declining religiosity that has been continuing for so many decades cannot be reversed in 1 or 2 decades.

So in comparison to debating about if a god exists or does not… Of course, religion and faith will survive into the future - humans have always been religious in one form. But it is absolutely going to change.

 

[JohnDamian]

I shall address a few points;

Firstly, In my parish, which is quite small (under a hundred) we have at least thirty or so people in the 21-45 bracket. Including myself; however this might not be represenative of the overall international trends (as alot of young people live in my area).

Secondly, just because this trend is currently going towards an increase in atheism and anti-religious belief, does not mean it will continue; so to extrapolate this into the next twenty years would be fallacious.

Thirdly, the Vatican is a state and is unlikely to move. Although it has done so in the past it is very likely that (unless forced) it would stay where it is to preserve the historic nature of itself and to stop it turning into secular museums etc. Furthermore, with the increase in communications it would not matter if the head of the Church was geographically not in the place of the highest number of believers.

Fourthly; you say that faith will absolutely change. I do not see why the faith itself *must *change.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

A new word to debate - demographics in europe

What, europeans cant draw whole pictures?

FSC

 

[WatchingMedia]

state.gov/p/eur/ci/vt/
This link is from the US State Dept. The Vatican is independent and not part of Italy or Rome, and has diplomatic relations with 178 Countries including USA.

I would think that European demographics would be the very most important to Europeans.
If you are correct about Islam, watch for Sharia Law in England and elsewhere - eventually for all your citizens not just Muslims.
You can be put to death for committing adultary, homosexual acts, abortions, changing from Islam to another religion, saying anything negative about Mohammed, etc.
And since most do not believe in God - dead is dead in your belief system.

It’s all up to your citizens. You all (not you alone) have created the situation. What do your citizens intend to do about it if anything ?

It’s my understanding that due to abortions etc., the declining birth rate within the next generation will not support your socialist programs. Your point of view on this would be interesting.

The total issue has potential significant changes for many European countries.

 

[mjs1987]

Most European nations have a below replacement fertility rates and declining populations. The population decline is tempered by immigration–mainly Islamic. In the future, Islam will be the majority religion because the Islamic immigrants have high birth rates. Non-religious will due out or be greatly diminished because they failed to reproduce in enough numbers. Christians will remain small but passionate in numbers, maybe gaining some non-religious converts that fear the imposition of Islam and Sharia Law.

 

[Mist]

state.gov/p/eur/ci/vt/
This link is from the US State Dept. The Vatican is independent and not part of Italy or Rome, and has diplomatic relations with 178 Countries including USA.

I would think that European demographics would be the very most important to Europeans.
If you are correct about Islam, watch for Sharia Law in England and elsewhere - eventually for all your citizens not just Muslims.
You can be put to death for committing adultary, homosexual acts, abortions, changing from Islam to another religion, saying anything negative about Mohammed, etc.
And since most do not believe in God - dead is dead in your belief system.

It’s all up to your citizens. You all (not you alone) have created the situation. What do your citizens intend to do about it if anything ?

It’s my understanding that due to abortions etc., the declining birth rate within the next generation will not support your socialist programs. Your point of view on this would be interesting.

The total issue has potential significant changes for many European countries.

Great post.

The Natural (White) Europeans may indeed be suffering from a spell of “atheism”. However with Europe’s insane socialist laws and disgusting immigrant laws that are rooting up traditional cultures established over centuries, causing racial/cultural tensions, fomenting present as well as future violence and so on. I can safely say that what ever “demographic” change happens in Europe, it will most certainly NOT be in favor of a secular state or that of atheism. For you see when you don’t believe in anything, you don’t much care about anything, when you don’t much care about anything, you certainly won’t fight/stand up for anything. When you don’t fight for anything and allow people who are MORE then willing to fight, die and in this instance, breed (seeing how many atheists today think having kids will kill the poor, helpless pandas and seals and whatever other environmental nonsense as of late) to come in and destroy thousands of years of civilization in the name of political correctness, socialised programs, “equality” and most importantly, Islam, you get a demographic change alright but it won’t be in favor of the native people there and in this instance, it will definitely not be pro-secular/atheism.

This is to say, atheism/secularism has largely screwed its self by thinking that it can sustain its self by not reproducing and then downtrodden the native religion of Europe (Christianity, which also tends to have the larger families) which has defended the West and those that fought gave their lives for God, King and Country for centuries. Then importing people to meet their needs (Socialised programs and welfare) so they can party, have “safe-sex”, have abortions, have careers and what ever other meaningless dribble that their lives revolve around before their embittered souls wither away before ultimately dying.
The people they bring in are not met with the challenge of integrating into European society, quite the opposite, they are encouraged to remain the very same way as if they still lived in what ever third world or Sharia Law dominated country (sometimes both) they came from.

Ultimately, what mjs1987 said about Islam becoming dominate and Christianity being small but passionate, atheists converting to Christianity to save their lives and so forth, may indeed come to pass. Although given the recent trend of people turning to the Right all over the West and the fact that the Left is destroying everything it touches, Europe and the West stands a good chance of moving to a brighter future, in both Christendom and a solid demographic/racial/cultural background.

May the Holy Cross be your shield.

 

[malphono]

Well, I knew that this thread was destined to be political, and indeed it is. It should be in another forum. It has no place here. That said, though, and while it’s still here, I can’t help but add a remark:

Say what one will, the politics of the far right are no better than the politics of the far left.

 

[Mist]

Well, I knew that this thread was destined to be political, and indeed it is. It should be in another forum. It has no place here. That said, though, and while it’s still here, I can’t help but add a remark:

Say what one will, the politics of the far right are no better than the politics of the far left.

I shall bite my tongue

Pardon me for bringing in politics. I got a little carried away.

 

[Dale_M]

One thing that really tires me is the debate between believers and non-believers is that no one discusses demographics in europe.

Oh my. I can tell that you don’t hang around CAF very much.

As you can see from some of the comments, the idea of a Muslim takeover of Europe is much on the minds of many CAF members. Its an issue which is popular within certain strains of North American political conservatism, and the membership of CAF skews heavily to the conservative side of politics and culture.

Obviously, this hasnt worked. In about 20 years or so, there is going to be a very large drop in christian numbers - unlike anything Europe has seen. It is very likely that Islam will become most popular religion, simply because there will not be enough Christians to compete for the top place.

hmmm… maybe. The article doesn’t address changes in Muslim religiosity among second and third generation Muslims in Europe. Many Europeans believe that as immigrants become acculturated, they too will become secular.

Also the Churches will have to change - how can the Vatican be based in Italy, when there are few Catholics left in Europe? The Vatican has moved before - could it be moved to Africa or the Philippines where there is huge growth in catholic numbers.

hmm… there was the “Babylonian captivity” in which the Pope was more or less forcibly moved to Avignon, France. But I am not sure what other locations of the Vatican you are referring to.

Besides, the Catholic Church is worldwide. Its exact location doesn’t matter. However, I do look forward to seeing popes selected from countries of the Global South, and not just from Europe.

Well, I knew that this thread was destined to be political, and indeed it is.

Yep. I’m not sure what this thread has to do with Traditional Catholicism (as opposed to the Catholicism which is discussed in other forums here.)

However, the Voas article is too old to qualify for the news forums. And this topic might be too weighty for the Back Fence forum. Its not really about Social Justice, or Non-Catholic Religons either (although it could probably be shoehorned in the latter.) So I am not sure what would have been a better location for this thread.

 

[Kaninchen]

Oh my. I can tell that you don’t hang around CAF very much.

As you can see from some of the comments, the idea of a Muslim takeover of Europe is much on the minds of many CAF members. Its an issue which is popular within certain strains of North American political conservatism, and the membership of CAF skews heavily to the conservative side of politics and culture.orned in the latter.)

In the old days web of discussion, people provided things like ‘Random Cliché Generators’ for discussing subjects such as this.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, I’m very aware of the Great Muslim Conspiracy To Sell Me Fruit - but I’ve always loved street markets.

 

[WatchingMedia]

state.gov/p/eur/ci/vt/
This link is from the US State Dept. The Vatican is independent and not part of Italy or Rome, and has diplomatic relations with 178 Countries including USA.

I would think that European demographics would be the very most important to Europeans.
If you are correct about Islam, watch for Sharia Law in England and elsewhere - eventually for all your citizens not just Muslims.
You can be put to death for committing adultary, homosexual acts, abortions, changing from Islam to another religion, saying anything negative about Mohammed, etc.
And since most do not believe in God - dead is dead in your belief system.

It’s all up to your citizens. You all (not you alone) have created the situation. What do your citizens intend to do about it if anything ?

It’s my understanding that due to abortions etc., the declining birth rate within the next generation will not support your socialist programs. Your point of view on this would be interesting.

The total issue has potential significant changes for many European countries.

I’m really interested in what the OP has to say.

 

[Kaninchen]

Ah but the overt naughtiness of Muslims and Jews is just a means by which the Great Italian World Conspiracy hides its desire to dominate the tastebuds of Europe.

 

[malphono]

Sorry to intrude, but I can’t resist:

Do you mean to say she doesn’t appreciate that unique delicacy known as “English Loaf” ??? Oh no! The horror!

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m really interested in what the OP has to say.

The problem faced by threads like this on CAF is that, on the one hand, they degenerate into ‘Naughty Muslims Are Taking Over Europe’ from American Conservative posters and, on the other, ‘Americans really ought not to be let out on their own’ from European posters.

Thus, what might be a subject worthy of serious consideration degenerates into cliché.

 

[Kaninchen]

Sorry to intrude, but I can’t resist:

Do you mean to say she doesn’t appreciate that unique delicacy known as “English Loaf” ??? Oh no! The horror!

Oh come on (and I say this is as a half-Italian) English food is a lot better than it used to be - you can buy decent bread that isn’t expanded polystyrene.

 

[malphono]

Oh come on (and I say this is as a half-Italian) English food is a lot better than it used to be - you can buy decent bread that isn’t expanded polystyrene.

Ah yes, indeed that is true, but such things cannot compare to “English Loaf,” now, can they??? The texture. The flavo(u)r. The invincible durability.

 

[Kaninchen]

Just imagine the ‘keeping your head down’ food wars growing up in England with German-Jewish grandparents and Italian-Jewish mother and grandparents - Jewish or not, Germans are Germans and Italians are Italians. English blandness was, at least, quiet (I hate it when my father says I’m the one who is most like my mother - I’m much, much quieter!).

Those naughty, naughty Muslims pushing out the natural white men as they move in. Possibly the burden the white fellow was carrying got a wee bit too heavy and he was overwhelmed by those devilish desert dwellers - what ho Bulldog Drummond!

I have an awful feeling that, over time, English Muslims will be just as awful as all the rest of us - MUFC Rule! (or whichever) spray-painted on the Kaaba.

 

[Kaninchen]

Ah yes, indeed that is true, but such things cannot compare to “English Loaf,” now, can they??? The texture. The flavo(u)r. The invincible durability.

Shudder!

 

[Kaninchen]

The eternal problem is finding white bread that is both edible and easy on the toaster.

You are right as well - this whole topic could be discussed in an interesting and intelligent way as obviously there is demographic change occuring. But simplistic rhetoric about ‘Eurabia’ and the like undercut any worthwhile dialogue.

Ah but people who live in Europe know nothing about the subject.