A new word to debate - demographics in europe

[malphono]

The same of course, is true to varying degrees of every culture on the planet.

But (back to the levity) in specific to the UK … here all this time I thought “English Loaf” itself was that defining factor.

 

[Kaninchen]

There will always be been some polemicist/journalist who will have written something entitled ‘Naughty-Marxist-Fascist-Liberal-Secularist-Relativist Conspiracy to destroy Western Civilization (European Branch) by breeding Muslims’ who knows so, so much more than anybody who has even been to Europe, never mind lives in Europe.

The idea btw that was ever some nature state of unchanging ‘Englishness’ or ‘Britishness’ is absurd - the British like the Irish (my own country of origin) are mongrels as is every other culture in Europe and there is no fixed, permanent ‘natural’ cultural model in one state that just stops at one point and becomes the paradigm for all time after that.

I hesitate to say this to an Irishman - not to forget the fact that a pretty large proportion of the population of England have Irish great-grandparents, grandparents or parents, of course - but one of the triumphs of the English has been to absorb everybody and turn them into ‘English’ – long before the American branch got into the trick.

 

[Kaninchen]

Being of the ‘Jewish persuasion’, at least I avoided the dreaded BR pork pie!

 

[malphono]

That brings to mind an experience I had at a restaurant in London some years back. The menu had an item listed as “saucissons de Toulouse avec ses pommes de terre,” which caught my interest, (gullible me), so that’s what I ordered. Of course when the meal arrived, it ended-up to be bangers and mash … yet another of those pesky “hallmarks” isn’t it???

 

[malphono]

Remember Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street?

 

[Onegin]

But I do so love those tasty buns.

Here up in the north we have a great, Islamic conspiracy to drive taxis whilst listening to Radio Faza.

I say we need more cultural integration if the quality of bread currently available here is of any indication. I once had a bagel at a NYC bakery and thought I’d died and gone to heaven.

 

[WatchingMedia]

In recent weeks, ive had a number of interesting debates with religious types and I’d be interested in your thoughts here. I have no religion, so to be clear, I dont believe any gods exist.

One thing that really tires me is the debate between believers and non-believers is that no one discusses demographics in europe. Surely this is the most important issue? If I dont believe and you do - who cares? The really interesting thing is what happens to the majority. And in Europe the trend of the last 150 years is a huge decline in religiosity. By “religiosity”, I mean the quality of being religious.

In Europe, people are using religous ideas less and less to address questions. We have analysis from Voas et al. esr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/2/155 from last year showing each generation is less religious than the last. You just have to go into a catholic church in the UK - where is the 21 to 45 age group? They are simply not there. The average age of those attending is probably around 58? Of course, there many new types of evangelical “house church” that are very popular - but not in the same numbers.

This raises the question what is going to happen to the demographics of religion in Europe as older generations pass away? What will happen with the transmission of religious ideas to the next generation?

Obviously, this hasnt worked. In about 20 years or so, there is going to be a very large drop in christian numbers - unlike anything Europe has seen. It is very likely that Islam will become most popular religion, simply because there will not be enough Christians to compete for the top place. The majority, however, will describe themselves as having no religion. As Voas shows in the reference above - they wont believe in ‘gods’ but will describe themselves as spiritual or something similar. They will have what is described in the literature as “fuzzy faith”.

Also the Churches will have to change - how can the Vatican be based in Italy, when there are few Catholics left in Europe? The Vatican has moved before - could it be moved to Africa or the Philippines where there is huge growth in catholic numbers? There is growth in christian numbers but it is simply not in Europe. It is in Asia and Africa. Moreover, the Evangelical churches are outperforming the catholics at an impressive rate. And the trend in Europe of declining religiosity that has been continuing for so many decades cannot be reversed in 1 or 2 decades.

So in comparison to debating about if a god exists or does not… Of course, religion and faith will survive into the future - humans have always been religious in one form. But it is absolutely going to change.

Apparently, there are some posters mostly non-Catholic, and mostly not from the USA, who do not want your post discussed.
This makes me VERY suspicious of them.
And VERY suspicious of their motives.
They hijacked your post to talk about “Food”, which has nothing to do with the questions and ideas that you pose. Nor does it have anything to do with Traditional Catholicism.
Very rude on their part.
I suggest they take their posting about Food to “over the fence” with a “new thread” and they can jabber all they want.to each other.

 

[Kaninchen]

Apparently, there are some posters mostly non-Catholic, and mostly not from the USA, who do not want your post discussed.
This makes me VERY suspicious of them.
And VERY suspicious of their motives.
They hijacked your post to talk about “Food”, which has nothing to do with the questions and ideas that you pose. Nor does it have anything to do with Traditional Catholicism.
Very rude on their part.
I suggest they take their posting about Food to “over the fence” with a “new thread” and they can jabber all they want.to each other.

Perhaps you should think about a couple of things yourself (and re-check the religious affiliations of the people you’re criticizing).

The original post didn’t talk about a Muslim takeover, merely that Muslims may become the largest religious group by default – in the sense that practicing Catholics are now the largest practicing religious group in England.

Now, in post 4 you brought in ‘socialism’ and a Muslim threat because that’s what you wanted to talk about.

What I think you need to consider is whether there is an ‘American answer’, never mind a ‘ready made American answer’ to a ‘European Question’ – whether what you want to talk about deals with the origin and nature of the situation at all, whether it understands the origin and nature of the situation at all.

Having considered that and, inevitably, decided that, yes, you know best, perhaps you should consider that delivery of an answer that doesn’t speak to Europeans, that doesn’t convince Europeans that American Conservatives know best isn’t exactly helpful, either.

If Europeans aren’t listening and it’s obvious that a large majority of the 400 plus million of us are not, perhaps you need to consider speaking a socio-political language that people will recognize.

 

[straggleyway]

Some great feedback. Some thoughts…

“Secondly, just because this trend is currently going towards an increase in atheism and anti-religious belief, does not mean it will continue; so to extrapolate this into the next twenty years would be fallacious”

Well, I’m interested in how you approach data and trends. If we have a trend that has continued for approximately 100 years or so, it is more than reasonable to suggest that it will continue. In fact, if you disagree with this, the burden of proof is with you to provide data or evidence that the majority will, in fact, start acting in a different way. So far - you havent.

There appears to be a lot of (mostly right-wing) fear of Muslims here - and I understand the argument - I disagree with many, many ideas from Islam. However, although Islam will becoming the leading religion, it will come from a low base. - meaning that, even though its the number 1 religion, the majority of the populus will have no religion. Or they will describe themselves as ‘spiritual’ - they wont believe in a god, but they like singing Christimas carols etc. There is not going to be a Muslim takeover. And please, start looking at data. Yes, the birth rate of some, poor Muslim famlies is high - but as a percentage of the population, they are small. It is relative. The 2001 Census found 1.6 million Muslims in the UK. In a population of million 61 million. So, Islam will have the most adherants to a religion - but it will not have much impact on public policy or law. Much in the same way now as christianity has little impact on policy now.

There have also been a few political comments posted which is interesting - didnt expect that In Europe, many catholics would regard themselves as ‘social democratic’ - they are not naturally right wing. I guess the US is different here. To be clear - Socialism is a political theory advocating the state ownership of all industries. European states do not practice this theory, but do offer a variety of types of welfare programmes - many of which are supported and designed by your own church.

In fact, often after the finance crisis, the church campaigned for a focus on welfare support systems. Europe is proud to have welfare support systems. I understand the right-wing in the US doesnt agree, but then again - we dont care . After bailing out the banks, these systems will have to reduce dramatically - but the principle of helping people will always be there.

Now, Mist, you have not read my post. I’m arguing that the old fashion debate between atheists and theists doesnt get us anyway. I think demographics is more interesting and more important. You may not agree with a secular Europe - but it is happening. And you obviously dont understand non-belief…

“For you see when you don’t believe in anything, you don’t much care about anything…”

This is an old argument that atheism is a belief in “nothing”. Its not - really. I dont believe in any of the gods i.e. in the same way, say, you dont believe in the Hindu gods or Shinto Spirits. But - and its a big but - I passionately believe in science education, in making decisions based on evidence, not on how we feel, in democracy, in civil rights and many more subjects ! I believe in the collective power of people - but I dont believe in supernatural beings - that’s all. So, please, dont tell me I dont believe in anything or care about anything - its just insulting. Instead of assuming - ask me what I care about.

Finally, importantly - i’ve travelled across Europe and have admit that bread products dont really make the grade. France, Italy and Scandinavia all win over us. But - fried bread with a proper cookced breakfast… now youre talking