A nice civil discussion of things we share in common

[JReducation]

I can attest to this as a convert, that all the above is true.

Then throw in the constant preaching that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints, that Mary is given the status of the Divine, that we are to pray only to God (this comes from a misunderstanding of prayer in and of itself) and many other misunderstandings concerning Catholic traditional devotions and gestures. We are programmed to believe that it is paramount to apostacy and idol worship to hold Mary and all the Saints in such great regard, as it displaces God from His throne.

A lot to overcome. And even when the head has it all figured out, the emotional self still has reactions for quite some time.

For those who come from the Jewish faith Mary is not much of an obstacle. Of course you have to explain certain things, but most of it can be rationally explained.

For example, the Immaculate Conception, Jews don’t place such a strong emphasis on original sin as Christians do. Jews believe it, but their perspective is a watered down version. “Ok Adam and Eve disobeyed God. So when has Israel not screwed up and God still made us his chosen people?” Original sin is almost like original goof up.

The virgin birth can be explained as there are other references in Jewish history to the virgin birth made by the prophets. Even the perpetual virginity can be accepted, once you accept the virgin birth. Many women in ancient Judaism consecrated their lives as perpetual virgins, even some men.

The brothers and sisters of Jesus, the Jews would understand to mean those who belong to the same clan or the kinfolk Relationships were very loosely defined in Judaism. They were determined by clans, not so much by blood. We see this very clearly in the Gospels where they speak of households where there were many members. In fact the baptism of Cornelius when his household in Acts. The word here is household. A household was not just the nuclear family. Therefore, a brother was not just a sibling.

Then there is the problem of the hypostatic union. This is where Orthodox Jews dig in their heals. No man can be God. That is heresy. For Jesus to be God is sheer heresy. The existence of two natures in one person is unacceptable to Orthodox Judaism, because it elevates man to a divine level. This is equivalent to what the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks and other pagans believed about their kings and rulers.

The Trinity poses the other problem. God is one says the first commandment. “I am the Lord your God”. The commandment is worded in the singular, the trinity of persons sounds too much like three gods, like those of Olympus and other pagan faiths.

Given the Jews history with paganism and having been persecuted by pagans for thousands of years, these are two very difficult bridges to cross. The approach is always better when done through Mary. Jews can wrap their minds around Mary better than they can around Jesus and the Trinity.

JR

 

[moosears]

I would add that the non-Catholic Christians also have a deep misunderstanding of grace which is at the heart of true Christan faith. They do not realize what grace is, a share in the life of God and that original sin must be removed before one can even begin to grow in grace. Once they have that understanding I believe the next step would be to spoon feed them the doctrine of Mary, since she is the Mediatrix of all graces. Also since a lot of them have such a high regard for God’s chosen race, the Jews, it might be a good idea to relate the doctrine of Mary from a Jewish understanding of the Old Testament.

 

[JReducation]

I would add that the non-Catholic Christians also have a deep misunderstanding of grace which is at the heart of true Christan faith. They do not realize what grace is, a share in the life of God and that original sin must be removed before one can even begin to grow in grace. Once they have that understanding I believe the next step would be to spoon feed them the doctrine of Mary, since she is the Mediatrix of all graces. Also since a lot of them have such a high regard for God’s chosen race, the Jews, it might be a good idea to relate the doctrine of Mary from a Jewish understanding of the Old Testament.

Grace is actually part of Jewish teaching. The idea of sharing in the Divine life is very present in the Psalms. But sharing in the Divine life is very different from being full of grace. This was why the words were so stunning to Mary. To be full of grace meant to be filled with God’s life. That notion was a little difficult for Jews to wrap their heads around it.

However, that being said, Jews actually have great respect for Mary, because she is mother. Motherhood plays a prominent role in Jewish faith. The idea of Mary as Mediatrix of Grace would be acceptable to Jews if explained as Mary being the mother through whom truth enters into the world. You have to tie it in with the role of the Mother as the protector of the truth. You have to tie truth in with Divine life, which can be done.

The big problem is how to you present the Christian faith and preserve the Jewish culture at the same time. For Jews, their culture and heritage is very much a part of their identity.

It’s funny that we should be speaking about this today, becaue today is the feast of St. Edith Stein (Teresa Benedicta).

JR

 

[eelpis]

Re the Immaculate Conception:

Until the Church DEFINED the truth of the matter, Catholics were free to question it, to guess about it, to conclude about it, to suppose about it, to debate it about it, to imagine about it, etc… AFTER the infallible proclamation, CASE CLOSED. OVER. ALL DONE.

I assure you that you are not free to dictate your own beliefs to others when those beliefs have not been defined by the Church without a proof that they are defined truth.

I hope that helps.
I pray for you.

They were not free to debate about it, the pope had many centuries earlier condemned the opposite opinion.
There are many different levels of teaching in the Church, you cannot just go with infallibly proclaimed dogma. The Catholic faith is a whole, like a beautiful tapestry, the revealed dogmas are just the core.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Not to beat a dead horse, but; I did some reading this morning and ran across a few quotes that address the points we discussed last night: Whether or not Jesus suffer, not only in the body due to physical pain, but in the faculties of the soul as well, through a privation of consolations.

I found two quotes of interest. The first quote is from a sermon on the Passion by Fr. John McQuirk, Rector of St. Paul’s Church, in 1916. It was published in a book with an Imprimatur by John Cardinal Farley of New York.

**The Passion of Christ: **“This is indeed a great mystery. Christ knowing that He was the predestined Sacrifice for the sins of mankind, suspeded the consolations and support of the Godhead in the Garden of Gethsemane, and during the night until His resurrection, when the Deity was reunited to His body”.

I found another quote of interest in the Summa of St. Thomas, who is considered by most to be the greatest Theologian in the history of the Church. His “Summa” was placed on the altar next to the Bible at the council of Trent.

In the Summa, St. Thomas discusses the sufferings of Christ. In one question he asks whether Christ endured all pains, which he answers in the affirmative. Then he asks if Christ also suffered in His enitre soul, which is where consolations are “felt”. He replies by saying that did Christ suffered on all parts of the soul except for the higher reason, which pertains to the contemplation of God. In other words, Christ suffered in all the faculties of the soul, which is where consolations are felt.

St. Thomas:

Article 7. Whether Christ suffered in His whole soul?

… It is written (Psalm 87:4) on behalf of Christ: “My soul is filled with evils”: upon which the gloss adds: “Not with vices, but with woes, whereby the soul suffers with the flesh; or with evils, viz. of a perishing people, by compassionating them.” But His soul would not have been filled with these evils except He had suffered in His whole soul. Therefore Christ suffered in His entire soul.

I answer that, A whole is so termed with respect to its parts. But the parts of a soul are its faculties. So, then, the whole soul is said to suffer in so far as it is afflicted as to its essence, or as to all its faculties. But it must be borne in mind that a faculty of the soul can suffer in two ways: first of all, by its own passion; and this comes of its being afflicted by its proper object; thus, sight may suffer from superabundance of the visible object. In another way a faculty suffers by a passion in the subject on which it is based; as sight suffers when the sense of touch in the eye is affected, upon which the sense of sight rests, as, for instance, when the eye is pricked, or is disaffected by heat.

So, then, we say that if the soul be considered with respect to its essence, it is evident that Christ’s whole soul suffered. For the soul’s whole essence is allied with the body, so that it is entire in the whole body and in its every part. Consequently, when the body suffered and was disposed to separate from the soul, the entire soul suffered. But if we consider the whole soul according to its faculties, speaking thus of the proper passions of the faculties, He suffered indeed as to all His lower powers; because in all the soul’s lower powers, whose operations are but temporal, there was something to be found which was a source of woe to Christ, as is evident from what was said above (Article 6). But Christ’s higher reason did not suffer thereby on the part of its object, which is God, who was the cause, not of grief, but rather of delight and joy, to the soul of Christ. Nevertheless, all the powers of Christ’s soul did suffer according as any faculty is said to be affected as regards its subject, because all the faculties of Christ’s soul were rooted in its essence, to which suffering extended when the body, whose act it is, suffered.

We can see from these quotes that our Lord did not merely suffer in His body, while His soul enjoyed spiritual delights. No. His suffering was much greater and extended to the faculties of His soul.

I hope that helps.

 

[catharina]

They were not free to debate about it, the pope had many centuries earlier condemned the opposite opinion.
There are many different levels of teaching in the Church, you cannot just go with infallibly proclaimed dogma. The Catholic faith is a whole, like a beautiful tapestry, the revealed dogmas are just the core.

I haven’t disputed the FACT that tradition always upheld (included) the teaching. Nevertheless, people still debated it - until the doctrine was infallibly proclaimed as dogma.

As to an earlier Pope’s condemnation of the opposite, who was that Pope? When? How?

 

[KingAlfred]

I guess an explaination would help but let us get down to a discussion. Before the thread was closed there began a discussion on Mary. I think she is one area where every one across the specturm of Catholicism and Orthodoxy can find common ground. As Theotokos, she is the vessel which bore the Logos into the world 2,000 years ago, and she, in turn, shows us how to be God bearers in the world today. While I have my own personal difficulties connecting with her, nonetheless she is a model for the whole Church of obedience to the Father, yet she is a woman of strength and conviction, thus she speaks to people from the conservative to the liberal.

I love Mary, but truthfully, feel uncomfortable with Christians who exaggerate her importance and spend more time focused on her than on Christ. Hear me right – I pray the Hail Mary every day, but…Christ is the Center, the All, the Godhead. Christ is my life.

 

[ethelzguy]

I love Mary, but truthfully, feel uncomfortable with Christians who exaggerate her importance and spend more time focused on her than on Christ. Hear me right – I pray the Hail Mary every day, but…Christ is the Center, the All, the Godhead. Christ is my life.

A reason that I much enjoy the Divine Mercy Chaplet. The focus is on Christ.

We had a prayer service last evening for the victims of the bus crash Friday morning. We did a rosary AND the DMC. As we did the DMC, I focused on the dozens of photos of the wreck that I saw over the weekend and the pain and horror the victims must have experienced. It was quite draining, emotionally.

 

[catharina]

A reason that I much enjoy the Divine Mercy Chaplet. The focus is on Christ.

We had a prayer service last evening for the victims of the bus crash Friday morning. We did a rosary AND the DMC. As we did the DMC, I focused on the dozens of photos of the wreck that I saw over the weekend and the pain and horror the victims must have experienced. It was quite draining, emotionally.

So heartbreaking about that bus crash and loss of life. Viernamese Catholics have such devotion to Our Lady.
Can you give some details re accident in case someone on thread hasn’t heard?

Peaceful Sunday to you.

 

[ethelzguy]

So heartbreaking about that bus crash and loss of life. Viernamese Catholics have such devotion to Our Lady.
Can you give some details re accident in case someone on thread hasn’t heard?

Peaceful Sunday to you.

55 Vietnamese Catholics on a pilgrimage to Missouri for a Marian devotion.

Front tire blew out on bus, bus hit bridge rail and rolled down embankment at end of bridge. 12 died at the site, 5 more in hospitals.

Turns out bus company was not licensed by DOT. Bus company was also something of a sham, as they were shut down by the feds in June. Owner started another company with same address, etc, but was not licensed. Bus had illegal “recap” tire on right front, which blew out. Driver was not properly certified either.

Horrific scene. Google “sherman texas”, or “sherman bus”. Many links available.

 

[wildleafblower]

Christ is my life.

Beautiful! Thank you for your testamony of love for Jesus. I absolutely melt whenever his name appears. I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for him.

A present for everyone. A snippet from MASS OF THE EASTER VIGIL, HOMILY OF CARD. JOSEPH RATZINGER, Altar of the Confessio in St Peter’s Basilica, Holy Saturday, 26 March 2005:

Christ is light; Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; in following Christ, by keeping our hearts’ gaze fixed on Christ, we find the right way. The whole pedagogy of the Lenten liturgy makes this fundamental imperative concrete.

Following Christ means first of all being attentive to his words. Participation in the Sunday liturgy week after week is necessary for every Christian, precisely to enable the person to be truly familiar with the divine word; the human being does not live on bread alone, nor on money or career; we live on the Word of God that corrects us, renews us, shows us the true structural values of the world and of society: God’s Word is the true manna, the bread from heaven that teaches us life and how to be properly human.

Following Christ entails being attentive to his commandments - summed up in the twofold commandment to love God and our neighbour as ourselves. Following Christ means having compassion on the suffering, of having a heart for the poor; it also means having the courage to defend the faith against ideologies; it means trusting in the Church and in her interpretation and concretization of the divine word for our current circumstances.

Following Christ means loving his Church, his Mystical Body. By moving in this direction we light tiny lights in this world, we dispel the darkness of history.
vatican.va/liturgical_year/holy-week/2005/documents/holy-week_homily-card-ratzinger_20050326_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/liturgical_ye...y-week_homily-card-ratzinger_20050326_en.html
A blessed Sunday to everyone. Peace be with you.

 

[catharina]

55 Vietnamese Catholics on a pilgrimage to Missouri for a Marian devotion.

Front tire blew out on bus, bus hit bridge rail and rolled down embankment at end of bridge. 12 died at the site, 5 more in hospitals.

Turns out bus company was not licensed by DOT. Bus company was also something of a sham, as they were shut down by the feds in June. Owner started another company with same address, etc, but was not licensed. Bus had illegal “recap” tire on right front, which blew out. Driver was not properly certified either.

Horrific scene. Google “sherman texas”, or “sherman bus”. Many links available.

ay yi yi. so very sad.
thanks for the info.

Bless you.

 

[JReducation]

We have to be careful not to disfigure Mary. I believe that when you begin to give her divine attributes, that’s when the waters get cloudy and people feel discomfort. This is not only contrary to the faith of the Church, but also contrary to Mary’s own faith.

I believe that people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa present us with a very balanced Marian spirituality. Jesus is the focus of their faith and Mary is their mother. This is why John Paul II could say “Totus Tuus” and Teresa of Calcutta referred to herself as “Mary’s child.”

Jesus is the alpha and the omega. Mary is the undisputed mother of the Second Person of the Trinity and perfect in every way, for God made her that way. Therefore she enjoys a place of prominence in the Church and among the saints. Thus the saints commend themselves to her protection.

Then there are the scriptures which are very clear. Mary’s will, like that of Christ, is to do the will of the Father. She becomes the epitome of Christian perfection. She is the model of all Christians.

She is also a mediatrix of grace. We see this clearly in Luke when Mary visits Elizabeth. Elizabeth proclaims that the child in her womb leapt with joy in the presence of the Mother of the Lord. In Christian tradition, it is believed that at this moment, John the Baptist is sanctified in his mother’s womb and that he was born without original sin. The tradition says born, not conceived. This can be found in many Eastern writings and the writings of Catherine of Siena. Mary is the mediatrix of grace, because she is the Mother of Grace. Through her, Grace can act and does act. Notice that Grace is doing the acting, not Mary. She’s the portal. But it was when Mary appears on the scene bearing the Saviour that John is sanctified.

In John’s Gospel at the wedding at Cana, Mary intercedes. The concern about the wine is brought to Mary’s attention. Mary brings it to the attention of the Lord. Mary gives the servants a command, “Do whatever he tells you.” It is probably the only command that comes from Mary in the scriptures. But her command directs the individual to be faithful to Christ.

Finally, there is a prophetic statement in the Magnificat in Luke’s Gospel. Mary says, “Henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” We see this come true from the early Church. From the time of her assumption the early Church venerated her. From the early Church the Salve (Hail Mary) was always prayed. The first half, as we know was taken from the scriptures. It really speaks about God’s saving work and holds up Mary as a sign of God’s redeeming work for man. The second half is an ancient formula. “Holy Mary Mother of God” was part of the faith of the Church. This is her place in salvation history and is not being blown out of proportion. These words express a divine truth. She is the Mother of God.

“Pray for us sinners . . . “ was a statement of faith in the Communion of Saints. It’s more than just a statement about Mary. It’s a statement about the Mystical Body. We are all part of the Communion of Saints. As the Mother of this communion, we ask Mary to pray for us. But who is she praying to? She is praying to Jesus.

Mary takes nothing from Jesus. On the contrary, our devotion to Mary expresses many Truths about the Trinity. It proves the love of Jesus for anyone who has any doubts.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

I love Mary, but truthfully, feel uncomfortable with Christians who exaggerate her importance and spend more time focused on her than on Christ. Hear me right – I pray the Hail Mary every day, but…Christ is the Center, the All, the Godhead. Christ is my life.

I have found some discomfort in what I have seen and heard concerning some people’s Marian devotions. But I have come to the conclusion that there are often one of two things at play in this with me.

1. Often my own perceptions of what is happening in the devotions of some people are skewed, I can’t get into their heads or hearts.
2. That people, being prone to imbalance in their religious concepts and practices, can become too focused on one thing or another. I have to keep in mind that in my own spiritual life, there is room for proper devotion without having constant fear of imbalance. The fact that I am aware of the danger of imbalance is the first step towards not having it become a reality in my own life.

A reason that I much enjoy the Divine Mercy Chaplet. The focus is on Christ.

I too, have found the DMC to be a beautiful devotion. I practice this devotion equally with the Rosary. And I make sure my focus in both devotions is always on the work of Christ in my own life and that of the Church and world.

We had a prayer service last evening for the victims of the bus crash Friday morning. We did a rosary AND the DMC. As we did the DMC, I focused on the dozens of photos of the wreck that I saw over the weekend and the pain and horror the victims must have experienced. It was quite draining, emotionally.

This is a very tragic event. I was horrified when I read of this yesterday. Many prayers for those victims and their families.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I have found some discomfort in what I have seen and heard concerning some people’s Marian devotions. But I have come to the conclusion that there are often one of two things at play in this with me.

1. Often my own perceptions of what is happening in the devotions of some people are skewed, I can’t get into their heads or hearts.
2. That people, being prone to imbalance in their religious concepts and practices, can become too focused on one thing or another. I have to keep in mind that in my own spiritual life, there is room for proper devotion without having constant fear of imbalance. The fact that I am aware of the danger of imbalance is the first step towards not having it become a reality in my own life.

Jeanette,

I think your one sharp cookie.

 

[eelpis]

I love Mary, but truthfully, feel uncomfortable with Christians who exaggerate her importance and spend more time focused on her than on Christ. Hear me right – I pray the Hail Mary every day, but…Christ is the Center, the All, the Godhead. Christ is my life.

Without Mary we would not have Jesus. Where there is true devotion to Mary there is also a strong faith in Jesus Christ, God made man. Where there is lack of devotion to Mary there is also lack in the faith of the God-man.

 

[NeedImprovement]

…

1. The perpetual virginity of Mary seems to be a big problem, because of the use of such terms in the scriptures as the “brothers” of Jesus and Mary gave birth to her firstborn son. Many people don’t realize that the term “first-born” was a very special title given to the male heir in Jewish culture. This term is really saying something of Jesus than about Mary having more children. Jesus is the heir.

…Fraternally,

JR

Bishop Fulton J. Sheen rendered quite an inspiring meditation on Jesus being called Mary’s “firstborn” too. A snippet from his little book - THE SEVEN LAST WORDS, The Third Word ; Woman , Behold your Son pgs [25,26]:

"…Nazareth passed to Calvary, and the nails of the shop into the nails of human malignity. From the Cross He contemplated His last will and testament. He had already committed His blood to the Church, His garments to His enemies, a thief to Paradise, and would soon commend His body to the grave and His soul to His Heavenly Father. To whom, then,could He give the two treasures which he loved above all others, Mary and John ? He would bequeath them to one another, giving at once a son to His Mother and a Mother to His friend. ‘Woman!’ It was the second Annunciation! The midnight hour, the silent room, the ecstatic prayer had given way to the mount of Calvary, the darkened sky, and a Son hanging on a Cross. Yet, what consolation! It was only an angel who made the first Annunciation, but it is God’s own sweet voice which makes the second.

’Behold your son!’ It was the second Nativity! Mary had brought forth her First-born without labor, in the cave at Bethlehem; she now brings forth her second-born,John, in the labors of the Cross. At this moment Mary is undergoing the pains of childbirth, not only for her second-born,who is John, but also for the millions who will be born to her in Christian ages as ‘Children of Mary.’

Now we can understand why Christ was called ‘her First-born.’ It was not because she was to have other children by the blood of flesh, but because she was to have other children by the blood of her heart. Truly, indeed, the Divine condemnation against Eve is now renewed against the new Eve,Mary, for she is bringing forth her children in sorrow.

Mary, then, is not only the Mother of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, but she is also our Mother, and not by a title of courtesy, not by legal fiction, not by a mere figure of speech, but by the right of bringing us forth in sorrow at the foot of the Cross. It was by weakness and disobedience at the foot of the tree of Good and Evil that Eve lost the title Mother of the Living; it is at the foot of the tree of the Cross that Mary, by sacrifice and obedience, regained for us the title, Mother of the Living. What a destiny to have the Mother of God as my Mother and Jesus as my Brother!"

 

[preV2tradcath]

NeedImprovement, all I can say is thank you for posting the quote from Bishop Sheen, Beautiful.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Jeanette,

I think your one sharp cookie.

Thanks Pax for the compliment , although I don’t know how much anything has to do with my sharpness! I’d say more with having learned too much the hard way.

I was brought up in Fundamentalism. A lot of judging the externals, not enough thoughts of leaving God any room to do His work in the heart where things cannot be seen by those around us. Most often in spite of those around us! LOL

Long way from there to here. But I’m pleased to know that my journey has given way to some improvement!

 

[JReducation]

Thanks Pax for the compliment , although I don’t know how much anything has to do with my sharpness! I’d say more with having learned too much the hard way.

I was brought up in Fundamentalism. A lot of judging the externals, not enough thoughts of leaving God any room to do His work in the heart where things cannot be seen by those around us. Most often in spite of those around us! LOL

Long way from there to here. But I’m pleased to know that my journey has given way to some improvement!

It’s a long journey for many saints. Look at Augustine and he too had a mother praying for him, just as you do.

Fraternally,

JR