A nice civil discussion of things we share in common

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The one thread that was engaging in a civil and stimulating discussion was closed just when the discussion was getting really good (Healing the Chasm…). The thread was doing what it intended to do because everyone on the thread was discussing commonalities and working out differences, so I do not understand why it was closed and other more divisive threads with arguing in every post was left open. Was it perhaps because the discussion moved from one point to another? Isn’t that what a good discussion does? Maybe the good work started on that thread can continue on this with a more general title.
 
We are in catch-22.

Can’t discuss the mods decisions.

Can’t restart threads that have been locked.

Dunno. 🤷

Guess we gotta stick with being critical of / defending the post-Vatican II Church. 😛
 
We are in catch-22.

Can’t discuss the mods decisions.

Can’t restart threads that have been locked.

Dunno. 🤷

Guess we gotta stick with being critical of / defending the post-Vatican II Church. 😛
Yep! Back to the battlefront. The reprieve is over. Onward Christan soldiers!
 
I would have no earthly idea why this thread was closed. Do they just want controversy? We don’t. We like discussing in a civil manner that which we all hold and believe in common.

Moderators, If you are reading this could you please be so kind as to give us an explanation. What did we do wrong?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I am praying that God will allow us to accept his will, if this is his will, with joy and love.

As the founder of that thread, I have to admit that it caused me some pain when I found out, via PM that it had been closed. But as our holy father Francis said, obedience obedience obedience.

Pray for me that I will always be able to accept whatever God gives me and surrender with great joy whatever he takes.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂

PS. Thank you JoannM for starting this thread. May God bring many souls to him through your effort.
 
I guess an explaination would help but let us get down to a discussion. Before the thread was closed there began a discussion on Mary. I think she is one area where every one across the specturm of Catholicism and Orthodoxy can find common ground. As Theotokos, she is the vessel which bore the Logos into the world 2,000 years ago, and she, in turn, shows us how to be God bearers in the world today. While I have my own personal difficulties connecting with her, nonetheless she is a model for the whole Church of obedience to the Father, yet she is a woman of strength and conviction, thus she speaks to people from the conservative to the liberal.
 
There is a wonderful little book which I am now re-reading, after many years, called “Mary In Our Life”, by Fr. William G. Most. He begins with saying and proving through scripture and the Early Church Fathers , that Mary is the second Eve. The first Eve did not consent to God’s will and assisted in casting the world into sin and death. Mary untied the knot of the first Eve by consenting to God’s will and assists, even to this day, in restoring mankind to grace and life. The Popes have declared in their letters that there is no one, under God, that is higher in the supernatural order. She is greater, even, than the angels.

All hail the Queen
of Heaven and earth,
through whose “fiat”
we have gained rebirth.
Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son,
Bride of the Holy Ghost
thrice blessed and full of grace,
'tis She that we honor most!

Uh…sorry I got carried away. But I had to post this, it just came off the top of my head.
 
There is a wonderful little book which I am now re-reading, after many years, called “Mary In Our Life”, by Fr. William G. Most. He begins with saying and proving through scripture and the Early Church Fathers , that Mary is the second Eve. The first Eve did not consent to God’s will and assisted in casting the world into sin and death. Mary untied the knot of the first Eve by consenting to God’s will and assists, even to this day, in restoring mankind to grace and life. The Popes have declared in their letters that there is no one, under God, that is higher in the supernatural order. She is greater, even, than the angels.

All hail the Queen
of Heaven and earth,
through whose “fiat”
we have gained rebirth.
Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son,
Bride of the Holy Ghost
thrice blessed and full of grace,
'tis She that we honor most!

Uh…sorry I got carried away. But I had to post this, it just came off the top of my head.
Hence the theology that Mary is the Queen of Angels. Not only is it helpful to understand how Mary participates in our redemption, but it is equally helpful to learn from her.

Knowledge, without love is not enough. There are two thoughts that come to mind here.
  1. When St. Anthony asked for permission to teach theology to the friars, Francis said that he could do so provided that it did not replace the life of prayer.
  2. When St. Thomas Aquinas was dying he said, “Straw, it is all straw”, he was speaking about his studies of theology and philosophy.
These holy men realized that without love, knowing was not enough. The same applies to our Blessed Mother. Without love, knowing the theology around her and about the culture that has been built up around her falls short.

While Christ is always the object of our love, we learn to love him through his mother. This was the message of Montfort and Most. I believe it was Fr. Most who founded the Legion of Mary. The idea was to bring all men to Christ through Mary.

Today, when so many of us are upset about such things as changes in the liturgy, ecumenism, the role of women in the Church and so many other issues, it is time to recover our Marian spirituality.

First, we are not going to learn to love Christ with the intensity that he deserves unless we learn from his mother. No one loved him more than she and the Father.

Second, we should never pray alone. Only prayer can bring healing to a Church that is in pain. What better prayer companion than the woman who is a living prayer?

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I guess an explaination would help but let us get down to a discussion. Before the thread was closed there began a discussion on Mary. I think she is one area where every one across the specturm of Catholicism and Orthodoxy can find common ground. As Theotokos, she is the vessel which bore the Logos into the world 2,000 years ago, and she, in turn, shows us how to be God bearers in the world today. While I have my own personal difficulties connecting with her, nonetheless she is a model for the whole Church of obedience to the Father, yet she is a woman of strength and conviction, thus she speaks to people from the conservative to the liberal.
Joann - this was my last response to a post of yours about Mary. I don’t think you had time to see it:~~~~~~ Originally Posted by Joannm I have been reading with interest this discussion regarding Mary. While I firmly hold and believe all the Marian doctrines, and pray the Rosary daily, I feel no connection at all. My spiritual director has a tremendous Marian devotion and we really haven’t been able to deal with this adequatly. He says don’t push it, that Mary will reveal herself to me in her own time.It is just frustrating at times when I hear of this intense devotion people have to her and it just doesn’t happen for me. Anyway this discussion is refreshing. I would also like to go back to the discussion on spiriutal director…perhaps on another thread devoted to it as someone suggested~~~~~~~ My response to joann ~~ In addition to Deacon Ed’s comments, I’ll say this.Feelings are not everything.It might even be said that they are no measure of faith at all.I remind you of Mother Teresa and her lack of “feelings” of union, of comfort, of joy - despite her sacrificial work in the service of Our Lord and His Church. I know it can be frustrating to hear of others’ devotion and the comfort it brings them.Yet, in the end, it doesn’t matter at all. It’s never about feelings.I have to imagine too that Mary who was told early on, that a sword would pierce her heart, lived many days and maybe many years without the comfort of feelings of ease. Her mother’s heart and mind must have been filled with concern for her Son as He travelled and preached the good news. Also, why would we imagine that her neighbors supported Him and His work or her and her concerns? It’s as likely that she faced criticism and ostracism. Even with her life filled with grace, it’s hard for me to imagine that she was spared anything in the way of isolation and suffering. We know that she wasn’t spared. You’re surely closer to our mother Mary than you think!
 
Apologies because once again my formatting controls have simply crashed. What happens is that my font choices disappear and so I can make use of no punctuation, bold-ing, etc… It’s a surprise to me. It comes, it goes, it comes, it goes. Clueless.
 
I guess an explaination would help but let us get down to a discussion. Before the thread was closed there began a discussion on Mary. I think she is one area where every one across the specturm of Catholicism and Orthodoxy can find common ground. As Theotokos, she is the vessel which bore the Logos into the world 2,000 years ago, and she, in turn, shows us how to be God bearers in the world today. While I have my own personal difficulties connecting with her, nonetheless she is a model for the whole Church of obedience to the Father, yet she is a woman of strength and conviction, thus she speaks to people from the conservative to the liberal.
JoannM -

I was reading your post on the Healing thread, and wanted to tell you that you are not alone. I too, am having the same trouble ‘connecting’ with the feelings or emotions that I see others having in their Marian devotion.

I can only say that I have decided rather than being upset or discouraged or even anxious about this, I will just relax and let things take their course. (Of course, I have to keep making this decision, because the tendancy to discouragment keeps sneaking up, I have to grab hold of it and put it back in it’s place! 😛 )

As a convert, there are just so many new things to absorb in this great faith. Burnout can happen, I’ve come close to it on several occasions, and I’ve only been officially Catholic a little over 2 years!

I’ve allowed myself at times to become distressed if I don’t ‘feel’ as Catholic as the next gal or guy, because most ‘traditions’ and ‘devotions’ that are faithfully practiced by others are not as natural for me, and this distress has been counterproductive to my overall journey in Catholic faith.

All that to say this: you are not alone! 😛

Also, my motto lately: Baby Steps. 😃

God bless!
Jeanette
 
JoannM -

I was reading your post on the Healing thread, and wanted to tell you that you are not alone. I too, am having the same trouble ‘connecting’ with the feelings or emotions that I see others having in their Marian devotion.

I can only say that I have decided rather than being upset or discouraged or even anxious about this, I will just relax and let things take their course. (Of course, I have to keep making this decision, because the tendancy to discouragment keeps sneaking up, I have to grab hold of it and put it back in it’s place! 😛 )

As a convert, there are just so many new things to absorb in this great faith. Burnout can happen, I’ve come close to it on several occasions, and I’ve only been officially Catholic a little over 2 years!

I’ve allowed myself at times to become distressed if I don’t ‘feel’ as Catholic as the next gal or guy, because most ‘traditions’ and ‘devotions’ that are faithfully practiced by others are not as natural for me, and this distress has been counterproductive to my overall journey in Catholic faith.

All that to say this: you are not alone! 😛

Also, my motto lately: Baby Steps. 😃

God bless!
Jeanette
Baby steps indeed - and being without comfort is very Mary-like.
 
Baby steps indeed - and being without comfort is very Mary-like.
Recommendation: a little book by William Biersach called:
Of Mary There is Never Enough.

It’s actually six chapters from a larger work that I’m quickly discovering to be the best book I’ve read in years.

“While the Eyes of the Great are Elsewhere” (thoughts on being a Roman Catholic at the Dawn of the 21st Century)
 
I can’t even pretend to analyze the mind of God. What presumption!

But I do think that those who love and pray to Mary WITHOUT experiencing “feelings” will receive a greater reward because of their faith.

Anyone can have faith in God when the warm love fuzzies are all around you and you feel them heating up your soul and making you laugh and cry.

The real test is, Do you have faith in God and His saints when there are no warm fuzzies, when all seems dark and dreary, and when you feel that your prayers are hitting the ceiling and bouncing right back at you?

I hope this statement doesn’t make anyone mad. I don’t mean it to be insulting. When my husband and I first started looking into the Catholic Church (we were still very Protestant), I remember telling him, “These people have more faith than all the Protestants, because they attend a Mass that generally doesn’t have very good music and nothing “entertaining” happens, no one gets slain in the Spirit or rolls in aisles, there’s no clapping or cheering or emotional testimonies, and often, the sermon is rather unexciting, and even more often, the sound system doesn’t work and there is no sound tech or lighting tech or even a song leader–and yet, these people keep coming to Mass to receive Jesus. They have true faith.”
 
I can’t even pretend to analyze the mind of God. What presumption!

But I do think that those who love and pray to Mary WITHOUT experiencing “feelings” will receive a greater reward because of their faith.

Anyone can have faith in God when the warm love fuzzies are all around you and you feel them heating up your soul and making you laugh and cry.

The real test is, Do you have faith in God and His saints when there are no warm fuzzies, when all seems dark and dreary, and when you feel that your prayers are hitting the ceiling and bouncing right back at you?
Aahh. The dark night. That is a tough place to have faith but it is the best place to have it. I have heard before that if you don’t feel like praying you can sit and stare at God with the willful intention of loving Him and gain great graces. Or just speak your mind to Him. Same thing. Abundant graces.
 
I am wondering if we’re not blending situations that are different.
  1. Mary was alone and missing consolation, but it was human consolation, not spiritual consolation.
In Mystical Theology, the Spanish Mystics (Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross) speak to us about consolation, but they are speaking about spiritual consolation, which was always available to Mary, because she was the Immaculate Conception. Mary’s soul did not need to be purified or to purge itself. Therefore, there was no need to go through spiritual dryness or a dark night of the soul.

During spiritual consolation the soul experiences God’s closeness through the senses. It feels God’s presence. God never deprived Mary of this experience, for she was without sin. Mary never goes through the stages that lead to union with God. She was united to God from the moment of her immaculate conception.

The rest of us have to go through the steps that the Spanish Masters called the Ascent to Mt. Carmel. We begin with the spritual consolation. During this stage our soul is filled with great love for God and our sense are highly aware of God’s presence and action in our lives. Our prayer is filled with love and security.

As we become proficient in prayer, God leads the soul into the desert where prayer becomes an act of a loving will. This has nothing to do with our ability to connect or identify with a saint or with God. In fact, while the soul goes through this phase, which can last decades, the ordinary feelings of eveyday life are always present. The individual can laugh, cry, work, play and do everything that he or she has always been able to do. The person can identify with the saints and with Christ in some way. It’s the soul that feels nothing. In fact, a true saint actually prays harder to the Lord and to Mary, usually for light.

What they don’t always realize is that they cannot see the light, because it’s too strong. It’s as if someone flashed a camera in your face. You’re blinded. The soul in the desert cannot see God, not because he is absent, but because his light is blinding.

As the soul journeys through the desert, what keeps the person going is their faith in God and Mary’s proximity, even though they do not feel it in prayer. The person is aware that the dryness of prayer is a sign of a deeper union with Christ on the cross. The cross was not filled with consolations. It was dark, cloudy, frightening, and dry of all those good feelings that we normally associate with the holy. Yet, it was the ultimate union between God and man. The aridity of the soul in prayer is part of the journey of the soul toward the mystical marriage of which St. Catherine wrote.
  1. The inability to identify with a saint, such as the Blessed Virgin Mary is a psychological inability, not part of the spiritual journey through the desert.
In speaking of our ability to identify with Mary, we must separate the two experiencess. An inability to connect with Mary, especially for a convert to the Catholic faith is not so much a spiritual experience, but a psychological reality.

It is difficult to connect with someone who has not been part of your spiritual heritage. It is like marrying a widow who has children. Intellectually you accept them as yours too, but it takes time and patience to make the emotional connection. It will come as long as the mind gives assent.

The same applies to our psychological connection to Mary and the saints. As long as our will gives assent, the actual grace will work gradually and thoroughly within us.

Pray for me.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I am wondering if we’re not blending situations that are different.
  1. Mary was alone and missing consolation, but it was human consolation, not spiritual consolation.
In Mystical Theology, the Spanish Mystics (Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross) speak to us about consolation, but they are speaking about spiritual consolation, which was always available to Mary, because she was the Immaculate Conception. Mary’s soul did not need to be purified or to purge itself. Therefore, there was no need to go through spiritual dryness or a dark night of the soul.

During spiritual consolation the soul experiences God’s closeness through the senses. It feels God’s presence. God never deprived Mary of this experience, for she was without sin. Mary never goes through the stages that lead to union with God. She was united to God from the moment of her immaculate conception.

The rest of us have to go through the steps that the Spanish Masters called the Ascent to Mt. Carmel. We begin with the spritual consolation. During this stage our soul is filled with great love for God and our sense are highly aware of God’s presence and action in our lives. Our prayer is filled with love and security.

As we become proficient in prayer, God leads the soul into the desert where prayer becomes an act of a loving will. This has nothing to do with our ability to connect or identify with a saint or with God. In fact, while the soul goes through this phase, which can last decades, the ordinary feelings of eveyday life are always present. The individual can laugh, cry, work, play and do everything that he or she has always been able to do. The person can identify with the saints and with Christ in some way. It’s the soul that feels nothing. In fact, a true saint actually prays harder to the Lord and to Mary, usually for light.

What they don’t always realize is that they cannot see the light, because it’s too strong. It’s as if someone flashed a camera in your face. You’re blinded. The soul in the desert cannot see God, not because he is absent, but because his light is blinding.

As the soul journeys through the desert, what keeps the person going is their faith in God and Mary’s proximity, even though they do not feel it in prayer. The person is aware that the dryness of prayer is a sign of a deeper union with Christ on the cross. The cross was not filled with consolations. It was dark, cloudy, frightening, and dry of all those good feelings that we normally associate with the holy. Yet, it was the ultimate union between God and man. The aridity of the soul in prayer is part of the journey of the soul toward the mystical marriage of which St. Catherine wrote.
  1. The inability to identify with a saint, such as the Blessed Virgin Mary is a psychological inability, not part of the spiritual journey through the desert.
In speaking of our ability to identify with Mary, we must separate the two experiencess. An inability to connect with Mary, especially for a convert to the Catholic faith is not so much a spiritual experience, but a psychological reality.

It is difficult to connect with someone who has not been part of your spiritual heritage. It is like marrying a widow who has children. Intellectually you accept them as yours too, but it takes time and patience to make the emotional connection. It will come as long as the mind gives assent.

The same applies to our psychological connection to Mary and the saints. As long as our will gives assent, the actual grace will work gradually and thoroughly within us.

Pray for me.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
JR, excellent points, IMO. My references to Mary’s losses have everything to do with her human losses and concerns as a very real and devoted mother. Just as we know that Jesus was like us in all things except sin, so Mary was as fully human as any of us - and therefore as bereaved in her moments of great loss. Her loss, the greatest loss. Her grief, the greatest grief.
 
PS - as I’ve said one of my favorite hymns is the Stabat Mater. Since my childhood, that imagery has stayed with me — at the cross, her station keeping, stood the mournful mother weeping, close to Jesus to the last. — Wow. How did she manage to live through those next few days? I know, I know, the grace of God.
 
The one thread that was engaging in a civil and stimulating discussion was closed just when the discussion was getting really good (Healing the Chasm…). The thread was doing what it intended to do because everyone on the thread was discussing commonalities and working out differences, so I do not understand why it was closed and other more divisive threads with arguing in every post was left open. Was it perhaps because the discussion moved from one point to another? Isn’t that what a good discussion does? Maybe the good work started on that thread can continue on this with a more general title.
DITTO !!!

You almost get the feeling that controversy is the preferred post. HUMMMMMMM:mad:

I do hope the mods read this and get the idea that this was a GOOD thread unlike some others. This bridged gaps where others torn them down.:mad: again!!!

I was really seriously thinking of quitting CAF altogether because of so much disunity.
The only thread that seemed to me to be a blessing and uplifting to our souls was the “Healing” thread started by JR.

Should we all get together and PROTEST…They may like it better that way.
Sorry Mods, but closing this thread was totally un-called for.:mad:
 
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