A Non-Catholic is slamming our formulaic Catholic Prayers

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A friend of mine who is a Christian, non-Catholic has a great influence on many people. One day, he started slamming Christians who pray the Our Father, Hail Mary and more. Called those prayers organized and was wrong to pray them. A lot of people agreed with him. I was sick that day or I would have explained that our prayers are taken from Scripture and Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father prayer. Yet, I feel I need more explanations.

I’d like to explain our faith in a gentle tone and not sound angry.

Can someone give me more information pertaining to Catholics praying these prayers? Oh, I can also tell him we can pray to God directly and we do. Same with Jesus.

Thank you, bless you and love you,
Sheila
 
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Well Jesus did exactly the same… it was common practice for Jews to pray the Psalms which they would have memorized. It’s been suggested that this is what Jesus was doing in the garden at Gethsemane. After all, if you’re going to pray long enough for the people accompanying you to fall asleep, it’s pretty hard to have a one-sided conversation for that amount of time spontaneously without any formulaic prayers at all.

In my view it’s not whether you pray a formulaic prayer or not, it’s whether you mean the words as you say them. Praying the Rosary is a notable exception to this as we repeat each decade but the point there is that we should divert our minds to meditation on the mysteries as our lips say the prayers. Hence we are still providing a meaningful interaction with God.
 
Strange attitude for a Christian. Does he not pray the Psalms?

Just my opinion but the way I see it is that humans use language. In fact there’s evidence that our sense of self itself is dependent on language. There’s also evidence that our ability to see colors is dependent on language. Considering how important language is for a human beings, is it any surprise that we use language to communicate to God? We are humans, not angels. We’re not all wordsmiths and have trouble coming up with the words to say, we have vocal prayers to fill the gap. They sound nicer and are easier to say than ad libbing something.

As far as the Our Father goes, Jesus told us to pray that so I can’t see how they can argue that it’s wrong. How does he pray? Just ongoing conversations with God? We do that too along with the formulaic prayers.
 
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I have dealt with the same thing - people trying to tell me that the formulaic prayers are not from the heart because they are memorized. I was never good at “composing on the fly” - spontaneous prayer. However, the more I studied prayer & meditation, I found that there are many forms. What is prayer? It is the method, material or process that lifts ones heart & mind to the Lord. Communal prayer & personal prayer both fulfill this definition. Communal prayer is usually formulaic, whereas personal prayer can take many forms. Sacred Music is a form of prayer. Meditation & Contemplation are forms of prayer. Meditating on Sacred Scripture is a form of prayer. Resting in the Lord is a form of prayer. It is presumptuous for someone to determine how someone else should pray. The prayers of my childhood are a good place to start. If one sets out to develop a prayerful life, higher forms of prayer will come. Actually, the “spontaneous” prayers have a formula - ACTS - Adoration, Contrition, Thanksgiving & Supplication. Spontaneous prayer contains one or all of those in its formula.
 
Maybe here’s an idea.

Catholics have a rich faith and tradition.
Based on Scripture, we have many forms of prayer.
The Our Father is formulaic, and we got that from Our Lord.
The Hail Mary…we got that from Scripture.
  • So we have what we call “vocal prayers” that follow a form, a pattern. (Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be to the Father)
  • We also have meditative and contemplative prayer, sometimes called “personal prayer” where we talk to God about the events of our day, our setbacks, our concerns, our needs, our worries, our desires to be better, our contrition, our sorrow for going against God’s will, etc. (imagine the apostles talking with Jesus as they walked along the roads of the Holy Land. We can do that too! Our Lord is good to us).
  • We have private prayer and collective prayer; the Mass is the highest and most perfect prayer we have.
  • We sometimes sing our prayer, alone or collectively.
  • We sometimes pray over/about Scripture: Lectio Divina
  • We, Catholics, even pray with our body and senses: we fast, we offer difficulties to Him in union with Him.
Catholics believe in “praying always” (as St Paul in Scripture tells us to).

All of these forms of prayer are Scriptural.

And so we let “one form of prayer rest another” as we attempt to be in conversation (prayer) with God all day long.
 
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What would my wife say if I said, “Honey, saying ‘I love you’ is pretty formulaic and repetitive, so I am not going say that to you anymore.”

A father loves to hear his children say the same things all over again!!

And so does a mother…Hail Mary.
 
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I’d say that telling other people how to pray is a symptom of spiritual pride. It seems to be typical amongst self-styled mystics that don’t have the benefit of the Church to guide them.
 
I don’t see a reason to presume the conversation was one sided, but quite possibly He was praying the psalms.

Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
 
randirhoades said:
A friend of mine who is a Christian, non-Catholic has a great influence on many people. One day, he started slamming Christians who pray the Our Father, Hail Mary and more. Called those prayers organized and was wrong to pray them. A lot of people agreed with him. I was sick that day or I would have explained that our prayers are taken from Scripture and Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father prayer. Yet, I feel I need more explanations.

I’d like to explain our faith in a gentle tone and not sound angry.

Can someone give me more information pertaining to Catholics praying these prayers? Oh, I can also tell him we can pray to God directly and we do. Same with Jesus.

Thank you, bless you and love you,
Sheila
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This is literally the prayer Jesus taught us to pray to God. It is the single instance in the entire Bible where GOD is literally teaching us how to pray to Him. If that prayer isn’t worth of recitation, then nothing we make up on the fly is going to be worthwhile either.

As for the Hail Mary, how could it possible be wrong to repeat the words of God’s messenger sent to announce the single greatest piece of news in all of human history?
 
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randirhoades said:
A friend of mine who is a Christian, non-Catholic has a great influence on many people. One day, he started slamming Christians who pray the Our Father, Hail Mary and more. Called those prayers organized and was wrong to pray them. A lot of people agreed with him. …
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Matthew
17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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  1. The Our Father and much of the Hail Mary are direct from Scripture. This man does not sound like much of a Christian if he bashes Scripture.
  2. Although these “organized” prayers are often used (and the Our Father, having come from Jesus and also being part of Scripture, is part of our Mass), there is no requirement that a Catholic pray in this way. A Catholic is free to pray by piously reading Scripture, by making up his own prayers, by silently meditating. And many Catholics do these very things.
  3. Often the “organized” prayers are said in order to provide a background for meditation or to draw us into a deeper thought about events in the life of Jesus, etc. The use of a repeated prayer in a meditative way is not unique to Catholicism and is practiced in many religions. But once again, if a Catholic does not want to say the Rosary and instead wants to make up his own “Father God, we humbly ask you for this, etc.” type prayer, he is free to do so.
 
As recorded in scripture, our Lord taught us exactly one prayer - the formulaic “Our Father.” Are we to disobey that, or offer it only once? Do we tell those whom we love only once that we love them? Rather, ask that friend about Jesus praying to the Father - the most intense prayer ever offered - three times using the same exact words in formulaic prayer, at Gethsemane. Apparently, our Lord does not know how to pray!

God hears our heartfelt prayers. Ask your friend to judge which parts of your prayers are false, and which sentiments in your heart are sinful.

As to prayer, ask that friend where Jesus said to stutter and stammer through disorganized prayer, repeating “Lord, we just” and “Lord, we only” innumerable times.

Oh, and when the time is right, ask him where Jesus taught bible alone.

That should keep him busy for a lifetime.
 
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Simple. First ask them if praying prayers formulated in the Bible is okay. Then show them how the Our Father and Hail Mary are directly from scripture. Ask them to pray those with you and then ask them what they think.
 
Perhaps you could tell your friend that he has a good point. Prayer is about your relationship with God. Praying in your own words is essential. Standard prayers can be helpful too. You could even pray a prayer like the Our Father, and as you say each line, think of what it means to you personally. I do that a lot.
 
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The Biblical command from Christ is against vain repetition, not repetition. To be honest the command of that particular verse is violated by those who insist on rambling on. I’m thinking of a long prayer before a meal or a group prayer walk which suddenly becomes a competition for how long any individual can pray. If your prayer is too quick you may get asked about how your spiritual life is going if you really have nothing more to say to God.
In my prayer life i do this when confessing sins (still not Catholic, so I still only confess in prayer). I go over them again and again without thinking.
My point is any prayer can become vain, especially in a group setting. I’m not trying to be harsh, I just grew up in a Church which condemned formulaic prayer yet encouraged rambling when talking talking to the Lord. I sometimes wonder if the prayer is really for us and God or for everyone around who is listening.
 
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Jesus literally taught people how to pray, and that’s what we do. Who is your friend to say nobody should pray that way? That’s a bold and questionable statement from any type of Christian.
 
I’d ask him about the song service at his Sunday worship.

Ask him if it is beautiful when everyone there sings with one voice in praise and worship to God.

Imagine what it would be like if everyone sang their own song their own way at the same time, it would be a cacophony.

Why is it that simply setting standard words in unison to music removes the “formulaic” part of the worship?
 
randirhoades said:
A friend of mine who is a Christian, non-Catholic has a great influence on many people. One day, he started slamming Christians who pray the Our Father, Hail Mary and more. Called those prayers organized and was wrong to pray them. A lot of people agreed with him. I was sick that day or I would have explained that our prayers are taken from Scripture and Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father prayer. Yet, I feel I need more explanations.

I’d like to explain our faith in a gentle tone and not sound angry.

Can someone give me more information pertaining to Catholics praying these prayers? Oh, I can also tell him we can pray to God directly and we do. Same with Jesus.

Thank you, bless you and love you,

Sheila
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Luke.11
[1] He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.”
[2] And he said to them, "When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
[3] Give us each day our daily bread;
[4] and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.”

Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]

Romans 12: 2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. “

Shelia, we ought not be bothered by these charges; we, the RCC have the One True Faith and Church founded by Jesus; which is provable in secular history AND from the bible; were it actually to be accepted for what it DOES teach. When we are persecuted remember that Jesus was too; and the sad reality is that “they” very often do not listen to US, is that GOD has hardened their hearts, because of there closed minds.

Job.17: 4 “Since thou hast closed their minds to understanding, therefore thou wilt not let them triumph.

2nd. Cor. 4:3-4 “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

Col.2: 8 “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ”

Romans 9: 18 “So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.”

Eph. 4: 17-18 “Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds; they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;”

Make your case with facts and charity and then pray for them

God Bless you
Patrick
 
The Jews used Psalm as their formulaic prayers all the time! Jesus prayed formulaic prayers as well. They are beautiful, and relates to all. When you are reading/reciting a formulaic prayer, and really mean what you say, the prayer becomes your own. I would find it very difficult to understand how any Christian who loves the Lord cannot relate to him/herself when speaking these words (unless when they are in a period of dryness).

In particular, the Lord’s prayer is the most beautiful and perfect prayer on earth. It is Jesus’s prayer. I would highly recommend readings like Raissa Maritain’s “Notes on the Lord’s Prayer”. There are a lot of books like this that spends pages and pages elaborating the beauty of this one, single, short prayer.

Try asking your friend this: St. Teresa of Avila found it almost impossible to get beyond the first two words “our father” when she prayed Our Father, for these two words alone are so beautiful that she wants to dwell in it forever. Does your friend make himself more holy by slamming people awestruck by the beauty and love of these prayers? 😁
 
anon65111186 said:
Simple. First ask them if praying prayers formulated in the Bible is okay.
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I guarantee the answer to this will be “no.”

When I grew up being taught this, I was always told that “pray like this” before the Lord’s prayer meant that you were supposed to pray something with some form of similar content to the Lord’s prayer, but not repeat the exact words - since that would be “vain repetition.”
 
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