A Non-Catholic Perspective

[jmcrae]

Luther did not want to start his own church.

Then why did he? Plenty of people have been excommunicated from the Church, both before and after Luther, and yet very few of them thought they needed to start up a whole brand new religion because of it.

Luther was already half way out the door long before he was excommunicated, anyway.

 

[beartaich]

I have not had the time to read this entire thread, however, I did read where someone had written about Purgatory.

WHY would anyone ever believe in it? It was pounded into my head when I was a kid, pre-Vatican II. I was pounded in afterward. I guess there is still the belief that it exists, that when your sins are forgiven, there is still some “payment” required and that Purgatory is the only answer.

How absurd.

The belief of Purgatory is so much against the Bible, it makes the head swim. There are many, many references in the Bible that makes it perfectly clear that when the sin has been confessed and forgiven, (not by man) that it is no longer remembered. If one is to believe that Purgatory exists, for whatever reason, then the Sacrifice that Jesus made for us, would all be in vain.

 

[deb1]

I have not had the time to read this entire thread, however, I did read where someone had written about Purgatory.

WHY would anyone ever believe in it? It was pounded into my head when I was a kid, pre-Vatican II. I was pounded in afterward. I guess there is still the belief that it exists, that when your sins are forgiven, there is still some “payment” required and that Purgatory is the only answer.

How absurd.

The belief of Purgatory is so much against the Bible, it makes the head swim. There are many, many references in the Bible that makes it perfectly clear that when the sin has been confessed and forgiven, (not by man) that it is no longer remembered. If one is to believe that Purgatory exists, for whatever reason, then the Sacrifice that Jesus made for us, would all be in vain.

A new thread needs to be started on this but, one of the many aspects of Catholicism that makes me happy that I converted is Purgatory. What a beautiful concept!

Perhaps you don’t understand purgatory, but in order to explain it, I’m afraid that this thread would get derailed.

Can you start another thread?

 

[jmcrae]

I have not had the time to read this entire thread, however, I did read where someone had written about Purgatory.

WHY would anyone ever believe in it? It was pounded into my head when I was a kid, pre-Vatican II. I was pounded in afterward. I guess there is still the belief that it exists, that when your sins are forgiven, there is still some “payment” required and that Purgatory is the only answer.

This is a misunderstanding. Christ’s blood on the Cross comes to us through the Sacraments of the Church and washes away our sins here and now.

But, we still have to become perfect as Christ is perfect. We aren’t going to go to Hell, because our sins have been washed away in His blood, when we participate in the Sacraments. But we are not yet perfect, and only the perfect can go to Heaven.

How do we become perfect?

We become perfect through obedience to Christ in this life, and (if there is anything remaining), through Purgatory, until we are entirely perfect, and then we will enter into Heaven. This is the “race” and the “perseverance” that St. Paul is continually talking about - we must become perfect as God the Father is perfect, because Christ Himself commands it. (Matthew 5:48)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

There are many, many references in the Bible that makes it perfectly clear that when the sin has been confessed and forgiven, (not by man) that it is no longer remembered.

Sins are not forgiven by man. But by God.

I am very curious about your experience. It seems that once you surrendered to Jesus, you never sinned again. And that will allow you to go straight into the presence of God after you die.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I have not had the time to read this entire thread, however, I did read where someone had written about Purgatory.

WHY would anyone ever believe in it? It was pounded into my head when I was a kid, pre-Vatican II. I was pounded in afterward. I guess there is still the belief that it exists, that when your sins are forgiven, there is still some “payment” required and that Purgatory is the only answer.

How absurd.

The belief of Purgatory is so much against the Bible, it makes the head swim. There are many, many references in the Bible that makes it perfectly clear that when the sin has been confessed and forgiven, (not by man) that it is no longer remembered. If one is to believe that Purgatory exists, for whatever reason, then the Sacrifice that Jesus made for us, would all be in vain.

What do you think Purgatory is in Catholic doctrine? Can you describe it?

 

[beartaich]

I’ll start a new thread on Purgatory. What is most confusing, is the way the RCC changes its’ mind on things when they just don’t “fit” any more.

 

[deb1]

Well, if we are going to discuss purgatory after all…

I used to attend a Baptist Sunday School. One of my fellow congregation members asked the leader how it would possible for us not to feel jealousy in heaven.

The response was that when we go to heaven we will be perfected. Guess what? That is all purgatory is, a cleansing of your residual faults before you enter heaven.

Many Protestants believe in purgatory, they simply do not use that term.

Hopefully, you understand that purgatory is not a part of hell.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I’ll start a new thread on Purgatory. What is most confusing, is the way the RCC changes its’ mind on things when they just don’t “fit” any more.

Really? Can you give some examples of these changes that confuse you?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I’ll start a new thread on Purgatory. What is most confusing, is the way the RCC changes its’ mind on things when they just don’t “fit” any more.

I notice you do not give any example of the Church ‘changing its mind on things.’ Don’t have one? Just throwing your claim out there hoping it will stick?

 

[beartaich]

“I notice you do not give any example of the Church ‘changing its mind on things.’ Don’t have one? Just throwing your claim out there hoping it will stick?”

I have plenty to say, and I am not just “throwing out a claim”. I was busy starting a new thread about Purgatory, that is all.

Since a few of you have asked what has changed, I’ll tell you. Most recently, the non-existance of Limbo. Where did everyone in Limbo go when it was “abolished”?

deb1, I never said anything about Purgatory being part of Hell. I KNOW that.

I’m not going to talk about Purgatory in this thread any more, I started a thread about it, so I will answer things there.

 

[BelFarfalla]

“I notice you do not give any example of the Church ‘changing its mind on things.’ Don’t have one? Just throwing your claim out there hoping it will stick?”

I have plenty to say, and I am not just “throwing out a claim”. I was busy starting a new thread about Purgatory, that is all.

Since a few of you have asked what has changed, I’ll tell you. Most recently, the non-existance of Limbo. Where did everyone in Limbo go when it was “abolished”?

Limbo was never Church docrine. It was an idea that has been discussed for a long time. But recently it was decided that there is nothing to support it, it was instead the hope of many Catholics that infants who die before baptism go to heaven. So the idea of Limbo was just one of the ideas they discussed related to this topic. Church doctrine is that since God is merciful, surely the innocent have a place in heaven.

 

[deb1]

“I notice you do not give any example of the Church ‘changing its mind on things.’ Don’t have one? Just throwing your claim out there hoping it will stick?”

I have plenty to say, and I am not just “throwing out a claim”. I was busy starting a new thread about Purgatory, that is all.

Since a few of you have asked what has changed, I’ll tell you. Most recently, the non-existance of Limbo. Where did everyone in Limbo go when it was “abolished”?

deb1, I never said anything about Purgatory being part of Hell. I KNOW that.

I’m not going to talk about Purgatory in this thread any more, I started a thread about it, so I will answer things there.

thank you so much for starting a new thread! that is wonderful and it will make discussing this alot easier.

 

[paarsurrey]

the main view about the Pope, in my circles, is that he is just a man that is a sinner just like the rest of us. He is no closer to God than any other man who is a Christian. We are all sinners, the Pope included, and to believe in a faith that has a cast system in Christ’s Church goes against the teachings of the Bible. I mean no disrespect and I am not trying to belittle the man’s works.
Then there is no need to pray to the Pope, Saints, Mary or anyone else. All have sinned, past and present, and fall short of the glory of God.

Hi
I agree with the above.
I would like to add here that there is a difference between a mistake and a sin. Mistakes were even made by JesusYeshuaIssa and like him by other ProphetsMessengers and ChosenOnes PerefctMen, because that is but human, but ProphetsMessengers don’t sin; sin is a rebellion against GodAllahYHWH.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[paarsurrey]

Luther divided Christ’s Church by making his own Church. What authority did he had to separate? I think he was a very selfish man to break with Rome.

Hi
Please don’t mind. What authority did Paul have to make a church so deviant from JesusYeshuaIssa, and against his disciples?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[jmcrae]

Hi
Please don’t mind. What authority did Paul have to make a church so deviant from JesusYeshuaIssa, and against his disciples?

What evidence do you have that he ever did so?

There is certainly nothing in Scripture to suggest that St. Paul was establishing a different religion than that of the Apostles.

 

[jfallaw]

Luther divided Christ’s Church by making his own Church. What authority did he had to separate? I think he was a very selfish man to break with Rome.

Actually, Luther was excommunicated by the Church- he didn’t leave willingly.

 

[paarsurrey]

What evidence do you have that he ever did so?
There is certainly nothing in Scripture to suggest that St. Paul was establishing a different religion than that of the Apostles.

Hi
The apostles summoned Paul to Jerusalem for his strange actions and belief he was teaching at Rome. Paul did not go to meet them and clarify things.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The apostles summoned Paul to Jerusalem for his strange actions and belief he was teaching at Rome. Paul did not go to meet them and clarify things.
Thanks

/quote]

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi
The apostles summoned Paul to Jerusalem for his strange actions and belief he was teaching at Rome. Paul did not go to meet them and clarify things.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

Paul did go to Jerusalem…please review Acts 15.

1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

This meeting, by the way, is known as the Council of Jerusalem, and is an important incident because it illustrates the authority that Peter, whom Catholics consider to be the first pope, had over the entire Church - and not just the local church in Jerusalem - because the decision of the council was sent to other cities and accepted everywhere.

By the way, would you mind putting all of the “I am an Ahmadi” stuff into your signature instead of in your posts so it doesn’t get copied every time we quote you? Also, how about using a darker font than light purple…it would be easier to read. Thanks.

Hope this helps. :tiphat: