A Non demonination friend is implying that Canonisation is judging the dead

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dpoc41
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Dpoc41

Guest
I believe that the Saints canonised by the Pope are in heaven, and that this is infallible. But how do I explain that this is not judging the dead ?
 
Well…how do you know? Is it infallible or can a sainthood be reversed?
 
Canonization is not the judgement of the dead, that is done by God alone.
Canonization is given to those proven (by miracles from God) that they are in heaven.

If your friend has a problem with “judging others” they can start with themselves judging
the worthiness of Saints and Church investigations.
 
Dpoc41 said:
I believe that the Saints canonised by the Pope are in heaven, and that this is infallible. But how do I explain that this is not judging the dead ?
Click to expand...
Tell your friend that if he can’t tell whether a person’s life was lived well in the Lord, then how on earth can he justify being a Protestant?
 
The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Church tells us that those who are deemed Saints are known by virtue of their post-mortem miracles to be in heaven. We cannot judge the dead. We cannot say that this person or that person are in Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven. Canonization is acknowledgement of the status of that person that has been shown to us via miracles.
 
IHeartAquinas said:
The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Church tells us that those who are deemed Saints are known by virtue of their post-mortem miracles to be in heaven. We cannot judge the dead. We cannot say that this person or that person are in Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven. Canonization is acknowledgement of the status of that person that has been shown to us via miracles.
Click to expand...
If the person has led an immoral life, then he is not considered for canonization.
 
=Dpoc41;6895479]I believe that the Saints canonised by the Pope are in heaven, and that this is infallible. But how do I explain that this is not judging the dead ?
Click to expand...
***What is missing here is the understanding that it is not the “person” RATHER the life works and example of that person that is being investigated and judged as worthy of Ofical Proclaimation that they indeed are in heaven.

It is highly SIGNIFIANT that the last and final step in the extensive process is that A MIRACLE MUST OCCOUR that is attributed to the direct intercession of the Saint; which gives GOD control of the process!***

The purpose of Saints is tp provide examples for us to emmunate!
 
Apollos said:
If the person has led an immoral life, then he is not considered for canonization.
Click to expand...
Exactly. The point was simply that a canonization is recognition of a fact, not declaration of judgment, similar to a person recognizing that someone is in jail. The judge and/or jury (depending on the nature of the case) actually put them there. Everyone else, recognizing that fact, can say he is now an “inmate” in a similar way that the Church can recognize that someone is now a saint.
 
Dpoc41 said:
I believe that the Saints canonised by the Pope are in heaven, and that this is infallible. But how do I explain that this is not judging the dead ?
Click to expand...
The church is not judging anyone. Only God can do that. What the church is doing, however, is acknowledging that these people are indeed in heaven.
 
But I think these Protestants are saying that by acknowledging that these saints are in heaven, the Church is playing the role of determining their judgment in doing so. In other words, the pope is declaring something they view as un-declarable. The only way someone can have such authority to claim a person’s salvation is to know and determine where they are himself is what I think they’re saying. NOT THAT I believe this, mind you. Some Protestants might think that the miracles that supposedly prove a saint is in heaven are just Satan’s work or wizardry. I’ve heard that type of rationale with Fatima, etc. Who knows? I’d like to know the Orthodox approach to canonization and if it’s different from Catholic.
estesbob said:
The church is not judging anyone. Only God can do that. What the church is doing, however, is acknowledging that these people are indeed in heaven.
Click to expand...
 
AndrewA said:
Canonization is not the judgement of the dead, that is done by God alone.
Canonization is given to those proven (by miracles from God) that they are in heaven.

If your friend has a problem with “judging others” they can start with themselves judging
the worthiness of Saints and Church investigations.
Click to expand...
How do you know the miricles are from God? The bible dosen’t tell us that dead “saints” can even do miricles. But does say that Jesus directly interceedes on our behalf and blesses us with miricles.
 
jericho777 said:
How do you know the miricles are from God? The bible dosen’t tell us that dead “saints” can even do miricles. But does say that Jesus directly interceedes on our behalf and blesses us with miricles.
Click to expand...
A saint dead or alive, would not be “doing” a miracle. They would be participating in God’s grace and will.
 
“Is Jesus in Heaven?”
“Yes”
“Are you judging Jesus?”
 
IHeartAquinas said:
The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Church tells us that those who are deemed Saints are known by virtue of their post-mortem miracles to be in heaven. We cannot judge the dead. We cannot say that this person or that person are in Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven. Canonization is acknowledgement of the status of that person that has been shown to us via miracles.
Click to expand...
I’ve only been Catholic for 7 years now. What do you mean when your “Religion” says “Roman Catholic Post Vatican II”? Does that imply something? Thanks!
 
FatherOfTwelve said:
I’ve only been Catholic for 7 years now. What do you mean when your “Religion” says “Roman Catholic Post Vatican II”? Does that imply something? Thanks!
Click to expand...
Vatican II is a Rorschach blot for many Catholics. That is a make of it whatever they want. For very traditional Catholics Vatican II was where the church went off the rails and let modernism takeover. Liberal Catholics ,on the other hand ,are always pushing for reforms that ,although not mentioned in Vatican II ,they claim are in the “spirit” of Vatican II
 
Great metaphor! You’re dead-on! Liberals think Vatican II was an invitation to play Peter, Paul, and Mary in the Church and act like hippies, for conservatives it was the nail in the coffin…
estesbob said:
Vatican II is a Rorschach blot for many Catholics. That is a make of it whatever they want. For very traditional Catholics Vatican II was where the church went off the rails and let modernism takeover. Liberal Catholics ,on the other hand ,are always pushing for reforms that ,although not mentioned in Vatican II ,they claim are in the “spirit” of Vatican II
Click to expand...
 
CatholicGuyNY said:
Devil’s Advocate: Scripture tells us that Jesus ascended to Heaven, right?
Click to expand...
Yep, and the Church tells us which books are Scripture, so we depend on Church authority for the Ascension as well as canonization. 🙂
 
estesbob said:
Vatican II is a Rorschach blot for many Catholics. That is a make of it whatever they want. For very traditional Catholics Vatican II was where the church went off the rails and let modernism takeover. Liberal Catholics ,on the other hand ,are always pushing for reforms that ,although not mentioned in Vatican II ,they claim are in the “spirit” of Vatican II
Click to expand...
That makes some sense. The reason I asked is that I’ve been conversing a bit with a high school (1981) buddy I have not seen since then on Face Book. It just came up that I’m Catholic and he is now an “Independent Baptist” pastor. After discussing some Catholic beliefs with him he made the assertion that “I was a Pre-Vatican II” Catholic. I really did not understand what he meant. I found my way to the Church trying to save my best friend from the “Whore of Babylon” and I ended up getting converted myself. It took about four years of study, Church Fathers, some Scott Hahn videos and a thourough re-reading of the scriptures. So being a late comer to the Church I’m ignorant of a lot of stuff. When I saw that “Post-Vatican II” guys “Religion”, I thought there must be something up with this. So I guess I’m “Traditional” and my family. My wife and daughters stand out a bit in church becuase of their veils. But they have always worn them, even when we were “Plymouth Brethren”. It’s in the Bible…and I guess our Pre-Vatican II nuns still “Hold to the Traditions” as Paul would say. 1st Cor Chap 11.
Peace,
 
It is an oddity. The Church will rule someone is in Heaven with miracles and an investigation into the life of said person.

HOWEVER no amount of miraculous visions will make the Church say this person is in hell…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top