A notion about the first cause

[GloriousOrder]

Dear friends ,

The First Cause must be, for it must exist as a thing which requires no cause at all, because logic dictates it. Just the fact that you cannot imagine it does not mean you cannot conceive of it. Our first cause is not to be a bearded man.

If everything we observe is caused by something else, there must be something which is not caused; rather, there must be something that is not in the system of cause-and-effect, as the system of cause-and-effect is too unstable to be its own source. Since the physical and energetic Universe is made up of things which are in causal relationships and contingent upon one another, the Universe itself cannot be the infinite, “necessary” thing; all its components are finite and dependent upon one another. The conclusion is that a thing outside destructible and changeable space must have created space, for destruction and change cannot be stable or “necessary” in of themselves!

I’m saying there must be a realm outside this causal realm, because the causal realm’s very nature implies a cause. This realm outside causality cannot be affected BY causality, or else it would just be part of the causal realm, and thus caused. Does that make sense?

Rationalists and atheists like to say that they take themselves where logic leads them, but if they deny that God must exist they are being hypocritical. When reason and logic take you to the conclusion that there must be a First Cause outside causality, and you deny that because you simply don’t want God to exist, then you are NOT following reason and logic.

What is your opinion of this notion?

 

[tonyrey]

Rationalists and atheists like to say that they take themselves where logic leads them, but if they deny that God must exist they are being hypocritical. When reason and logic take you to the conclusion that there must be a First Cause outside causality, and you deny that because you simply don’t want God to exist, then you are NOT following reason and logic.

They are not necessarily being hypocritical because they may sincerely believe there has been an infinite regress of causes or the initial cause(s) appeared spontaneously. Neither alternative seems reasonable but the more absurd a hypothesis is the more difficult it is to disprove.

 

[thirddec]

Ultimate logic suggest that the fact we are here means that either there was something that was created out of nothing or something has always existed that was not created even if it changes in form. In that something exists God or No God. There exists no logical arguement to settle which is the correct answer. Its up to us to explore this existance and decide the answer for ourselves. I choose to believe in God but I can understand how someone may choose not to. I would try to help them see my position through my thoughts in the hope of changing their mind but i would never be stupid enough to say I could prove God exists. If it was that easy then everyone would believe in God. I do believe the one thing we can all believe in is how special Life is and how fragile it is and therefore how important it is that we value it and try to live it properly.

Love and Respect

 

[MindOverMatter2]

even if it changes in form.

What?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Out of nothing comes nothing.

 

[aQman]

Ultimate logic suggest that the fact we are here means that either there was something that was created out of nothing or something has always existed that was not created even if it changes in form. In that something exists God or No God. There exists no logical arguement to settle which is the correct answer. Its up to us to explore this existance and decide the answer for ourselves. I choose to believe in God but I can understand how someone may choose not to. I would try to help them see my position through my thoughts in the hope of changing their mind but i would never be stupid enough to say I could prove God exists. If it was that easy then everyone would believe in God. I do believe the one thing we can all believe in is how special Life is and how fragile it is and therefore how important it is that we value it and try to live it properly.

Hey, now there is a really grown up attitude, dude! You’re confident of your own mind, and mature enough to allow both other folks theirs and for growth all around. Don’t find many like you. I’d treat you to a beer and smile even if we didn’t agree on something, cause you’re real.

Mind guy: there are some views that would tell you that because humans are puny minded in comparison, “seeing” god looks like seeing nothing, nada zilch, but feeling totally like love or satisfaction of fullness. So to them god is everything and the nothing it comes from both at the same time. Just sayin, since you quoted Billy Preston, sort of.

 

[thirddec]

cheers aQuman, how can you learn anything if you never listen. One story I like is the one about the saint, I forgot which one who was wrestling with the idea about what God is and he seen a little boy on the beach he was walking on, running to the sea clasping some water in his hands and running up to a hole in the sand and putting the water into it, then going back for more and so on. When the saint got to the boy he asked what he was doing and the boy told him " i’m putting the sea into this hole ". the saint smiled and said " I don’t think thats possible you know " . The boy then smiled and said “I will put the whole sea into this hole before the human mind will ever comprehend the immensity and glory of God” and dissappeared. I like the story but I would still try to understand and explore God but If I were to spend all my time doing this and never get on with trying to live life then I would never be off the beach. For now I got to the beach and splash around and enjoy what I can then I leave and get on with life too.

Love and Respect

 

[tonyrey]

In practice we always act as if events are caused. That in itself should give us food for thought…

 

[GloriousOrder]

Hey, now there is a really grown up attitude, dude! You’re confident of your own mind, and mature enough to allow both other folks theirs and for growth all around. Don’t find many like you. I’d treat you to a beer and smile even if we didn’t agree on something, cause you’re real.

Friend, your attitude of charity is very commendable and excellent! I think you’re giving a strong emphasis on individual human conscience, which is indeed informed by the wisdom of God. The problem which arises from the post you’ve complimented, though, is a certain indifference to truth.

If belief in God is just a ‘choice’ you make, thirddec, it need not be predicated on any logical principles. You’re giving up the whole game, and allowing the irrational side the field. If we begin to say that it’s just a choice and the reasoning never leads to a pure truth, then there’s no point. Relativism is the very root of evil, and leads to total indifference on the part of most people. One example of love on the part of a spiritualist (however sincere) is not enough to convince me that everyone would take your latitudinarianism so charitably. The majority of bitter atheists want to drive any wedge they can find into our belief, not accept “choices”.

When faith becomes unreasonable, it is lost. Our age has made the terrible mistake of pinning faith down to choices and intellectual imagination, not absolutes and willed conception.

 

[abucs]

I think a lot in the opening peice makes sense. I would just add that because our minds have been forged in this universe of cause and effect, our minds are almost hardwired to think this is logical and natural and anything else is therefore illogical and unnatural.

Although following the logic of the opening peice leads us to a place where ‘logic’ seems to break down. Therefore i have to also come to the conclusion that some of what we think of as universal logic and rationalism is not valid at that more basic level. This also leads me to think that our universe is a construct where ‘our’ laws of logic and rationalism are custom fitted for the intellectual evolution of sentient beings and there has to be a more universal logic we cannot as yet fathom.

Even in this universe at the quantum level, what we would naturally think as universal logic and rationalism seems clearly to break down.

 

[aQman]

I think a lot in the opening peice makes sense. I would just add that because our minds have been forged in this universe of cause and effect, our minds are almost hardwired to think this is logical and natural and anything else is therefore illogical and unnatural.

Although following the logic of the opening peice leads us to a place where ‘logic’ seems to break down. Therefore i have to also come to the conclusion that some of what we think of as universal logic and rationalism is not valid at that more basic level. This also leads me to think that our universe is a construct where ‘our’ laws of logic and rationalism are custom fitted for the intellectual evolution of sentient beings and there has to be a more universal logic we cannot as yet fathom.

Even in this universe at the quantum level, what we would naturally think as universal logic and rationalism seems clearly to break down.

New there’s some more good stuff. I admire Catechumen’s zeal, and anyone with a learner’s permit ought to have that. Kudos, G.O.! but you remind me of the chess student who was playing the grandmaster. The neo made a move and the grandmaster asked in a shocked tone “what are you doing???” The woodpusher said “that’s the move you recommend in your book!” The grandmaster said “that’s the move we recommend; but this is what we play:” Hey, it’s kinda like Mark 4:33,34, huh? (insert grin.)

Yeah, the human range of perception is like middle C key on the piano. Each octave above has 2x the info. Yathink we know everything? OK, we think we know there’s god? OK, your little bit means what next to the real thing? I can believe a pentium IV exists and say it works, but what the hell is it ans how and why? I’d say I’m missing a bit here and there. Hey, missing a bit, that’s funny! So maybe someone else coming at it from another angle knows something about the p5 I don’t dig, yaknow? It’s still the p5, but maybe I’m not so fargin arrogant about what I think I know, eh? Don’t mean you don’t do your best by your lights, dude, just give some space for god to be bigger than the hole in the sand between your ears.

 

[abucs]

well aQman, i have a science degree and a major in computer science and have been working professionally in the computer programming and support industry for well over 15 years. Is there a particular question you have about the pentium 5 processor?

and what exactly has this got to do with first causes and/or philosophy and/or quantum physics?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Is there a particular question you have about the pentium 5 processor?

The Pentium 5 processor, while being an innovation in its day, is now very old and slow compared to the “Pentium 16 quantum core processor” we have today. Opening any program or window is instantaneous. I run “Ubuntu Nano” on my machine; it works like a charm.