A paradigm shift on homosexuality

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I’ve been reading a collection of Orthodox spirituality lately, called the Philokalia. It’s really excellent, although like everything except Scripture, you have to discern what’s true and false in it. But anyway, I’ve noticed something characteristic about these authors’ approach to sin. They see sin as attack from external spiritual powers, first and foremost. This is consistent with the way modern Christians approach many sins, but it is inconsistent with the way modern Christians approach homosexual sins.

Generally we have two camps on homosexuality: (1) Homosexuality is a unique sort of perversion that either needs to be cured or just “coped with”, but is certainly not common to all, and (2) Gay people are another kind of person, and their desires should be accommodated.

Both of these approaches see gayness as special or unique. The first approach sees it as a unique sort of psychological flaw; the second as a unique sort of good thing, I suppose. These ancient authors, though, see something completely different. They have no notion of “psychological flaws”. They just think that we are all so massively weak in comparison with demonic powers that we will all tend to fall in a variety of ways without Jesus. Some will fall to homosexual temptation, some won’t. Big whoop. The devils don’t care what your temptation is; the devils care whether they can find something to tempt you with effectively. If these spiritual powers find homosexuality to be a weak spot in ANYONE’S armor, they will go there. No one is “straight”. But with some people, homosexual temptation doesn’t become an issue, since the devil sees much shorter paths to their downfall.

Reading this stuff is just so refreshing, as a man who has experienced homosexual temptation. I can tell you right now that the devil wants me to think this is a “special” thing about me, and every time Christians act like it is a unique psychological malady, that plays into the devil’s hands. I benefit from seeing it as another way I am human – and as a temptation, as a challenge in the way of me being divine. There is no unique and special spiritual life for gay people: “others should be Ignatian, but gay people should see a psychologist to ‘fix’ them”. No, there are just people, and we all need to consider what approach God wants for us, as we fight to be the men and women He made us to be.

Thoughts?
 
I believe this is true, and in addition to this the Orthodox teaching is that the thought itself must be exterminated from one’s mind because where there is a thought there will also be action. Also Holy Fathers in the East are very strict with the gravity of this particular sin considered one of the worst because it represent a huge victory of the devil over people. We in the East are also taught that this sin is so grave God will simply abandon us if we do it.
 
I believe this is true, and in addition to this the Orthodox teaching is that the thought itself must be exterminated from one’s mind because where there is a thought there will also be action.
“The thought itself” is ambiguous in what you’re saying. I don’t see authors in the Philokalia saying that anyone is responsible for their temptations, or capable of ceasing to have certain temptations through force of will. I do see them saying that you can always choose not to succumb to (or mentally encourage) any temptation.
 
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I don’t really agree with what you wrote, but i could easily adjust the semantics and find something i do agree with it.
Generally we have two camps on homosexuality: (1) Homosexuality is a unique sort of perversion that either needs to be cured or just “coped with”, but is certainly not common to all, and (2) Gay people are another kind of person, and their desires should be accommodated.
Well i’m in the 3) camp. I don’t see homosexual acts as particularly unique in sins, there’s no evidence it can be ‘cured’ and there are homosexuals who have made massive contributions to the world (e.g. Alan Turing) and i want more of that please. In that sense i want them to be accommodated so they can lead productive and happy lives but that is not the same thing as abandoning what the Church teaches about homosexuality, necessarily.
If these spiritual powers find homosexuality to be a weak spot in ANYONE’S armor, they will go there. No one is “straight”. But with some people, homosexual temptation doesn’t become an issue, since the devil sees much shorter paths to their downfall.
Some people are straight. There are a lot more bisexuals than people realise but they are current residing in both the gay and straight criteria, in my humble opinion. I have often argued that I don’t deserve any credit for avoiding homosexual sins, because I don’t have the desire. Which is basically the reverse of this arguement.
. I can tell you right now that the devil wants me to think this is a “special” thing about me, and every time Christians act like it is a unique psychological malady, that plays into the devil’s hands
I don’t know that it’s the devil per se, i think it’s an unintended consequence of self righteous religious people judging others. Another thread directed me to expert testimony in the inquiry of the Australian sex scandal in the Church. What it shows is that when people are boxed in too tight, they can transform into something far worse than their original sinful desires.

Ultimately i find 2 major groups on CAF:
A) Those who say a tiny percentage of humans will avoid hell and nothing in this world really matters other than trying to avoid sin and stay out of hell.
B) Those who think most people (not all) will reach heaven, because you know, God could always send another flood if we were all that bad. It therefore follows that our lives need to be productive on earth, meaning is it important to do things and not just not do them. Meaning we need to do things that effect other people (i.e. make the world a better place) and not just hide in a corner praying for our own personal salvation.

The type A people don’t care about the consequences of people who are ‘boxed in too tightly’. Most were going to hell anyway and they had free will. The reports make sober reading for Type B people.
 
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Sorry, I am trying to think how to rephrase this but it’s so hard right now. My mind is like stuck.
Hm, temptation?😔
I really don’t know how to put into something that makes sense but I see what you mean that what I wrote in a mess.
 
there are homosexuals who have made massive contributions to the world (e.g. Alan Turing) and i want more of that please. In that sense i want them to be accommodated so they can lead productive and happy lives
We would like all people to live happy and productive lives regardless of their IQ. So - this leads to both a negative obligation - “don’t unjustly oppress people for their differences” - and a positive obligation - “to treat everyone with respect”. Now I’m sure there can be much debate on what has/has not constituted “oppression” in recent times, just as there has been and continues to be debate about what “accommodations” are reasonable and what are not.
 
We in the East are also taught that this sin is so grave God will simply abandon us if we do it.
…so how do people return to confession if God simply abandons us?

Is that a universal belief in the Orthodox Church? Does it not lead to despair?

There is no sin beyond God’s mercy…
 
We in the East are also taught that this sin is so grave God will simply abandon us if we do it.
Who is “we in the East”?

The Church teaches God’s preparedness to forgive knows no limits. I recall a hymn on that theme (words are approximate):

“Does a mother forget her baby…”
…
“Yes, if even if these forget, I will never forget my own…”
 
I see what you mean that what I wrote in a mess.
I don’t think you wrote in a mess. I just think that, in English, the word “thought” isn’t very helpful for this conversation. “Thought” could mean “mental suggestion” or it could mean “conscious envisioning”.
 
Some people are straight. There are a lot more bisexuals than people realise but they are current residing in both the gay and straight criteria, in my humble opinion. I have often argued that I don’t deserve any credit for avoiding homosexual sins, because I don’t have the desire. Which is basically the reverse of this arguement.
No, I think you’re missing my point, in a subtle way. I don’t think people who aren’t tempted deserve credit for resisting the temptation. I’m not tempted to steal, but I don’t deserve credit for that. However, IF my spiritual weak spot were avarice, you better bet I would be tempted to steal. Thus all temptations are common to all people – it’s just that the devil doesn’t bother to tempt certain people in certain ways, because it would be a waste of time.

To say that “some people are straight” is to reinforce the idea that homosexuality makes someone special. That’s what I think it unhelpful. Moreover, I don’t agree with “accommodating” homosexuality, as if you had to do special things to accommodate it. If we don’t have laws against fornication, we would be hypocritical and cruel to have laws against homosexual acts. But that’s not an accommodation. It’s just saying that everyone has the same leeway to sin.

Prejudice against gay people is a new thing, historically. In centuries prior to 1800, homosexual ACTION was taboo, but homosexual temptation wasn’t generally considered a special category – and thus there was no discrimination regarding it. At least, that is my reading of history.
 
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Keep reading the Philokalia.

It is a great spiritual gem of the East.
 
Does a mother forget her baby…”

…

“Yes, if even if these forget, I will never forget my own…”
That’s not just a hymn.

That’s Holy Scripture.

Isaiah 49:15
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
 
Was it even acknowledged or was it like, “Sure it exists, but no one I know could possibly be homosexual”?
 
Was it even acknowledged or was it like, “Sure it exists, but no one I know could possibly be homosexual”?
The word didn’t exist. But literature written during the medieval and Renaissance period involved discussions of same-sex romances or at least “crushes”. And there was no notion that the people who had these crushes (e.g. Shakespeare) were a “different kind of person”.
 
@Rau It is up to priests to untie the person from this sin or not (whatever you untie on earth will be untied in Heaven too) right? So it is their personal revelation, of the priest, they are not obliged to forgive anything but must forgive some. Christ spoke of iconomy - the iconom who would not forgive 100% but neither demand 100% back brought back to the landlord the biggest profit. (the landlord being God) From what I saw it is one of those sins in which case unless the penitent simply stops having that type of sex (correction) Communion is often denied to him or her.
We are all in debt to God because of our sins, the priest has to figure out what to ask back and what to still hold as debt so we can find our way back into God’s Grace.
 
I seem to remember that the early sexologist, like Master and Johnson, and Kinsey, were of the opinion that folks aren’t totally gay or straight, but fall on a continuum, and there are a lot of reasons why a person would choose a particular partner.

Quite frankly, that matches up pretty well with my own observation of the world.

And it also seems compatible with these authors you cite, OP
 
To say that “some people are straight” is to reinforce the idea that homosexuality makes someone special.
Sorry you’ve lost me. Homosexuality is not a special temptation from the devil. It is created by a complex interaction between genes and environment. The majority of people don’t experience that interaction, they are straight. You seem to be confused over probability. If 5% of the population are gay then it is surprising that an individual is gay because there is only a 5% chance of that happening (i.e. rare), they are special. But it’s not surprising to find homosexuals since we know that where there are humans, then 5% will be gay. It’s the same as lottery winners, it’s rare that you win, It’s not rare that somebody wins.
 
Isn’t denial of Communion the case for any type of unrepentant mortal sin and continuing in sinful lifestyle? (I realize the Orthodox Church doesn’t make a mortal/venial distinction, but both Churches would agree that adultery is a grave sin, for instance.)

There’s a gay person and straight person, and both are tempted to lust. Since same-sex attraction is not chosen or willed by the person, would God “abandon” the gay person who fell to sin but not the straight person?

Am I crazy? Doesn’t that sound like a road to despair – the thought that God abandons us and that we are too wicked to return to God?

An Orthodox priest holds something back when sins are confessed? Do you mean we still have to atone for our sins or that some sins are not forgiven?
 
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