A paradox about timeless God who sustains creation

[Bahman]

Hi Bahman, in response to your points:

(1) A timeless God need not be one’s recourse to justify divine foreknowledge. You could argue that God exists at all points in time equally, that God was timeless before creation and then tensed (in time) after creation, or that God is able to foresee the future. Rather, God is understood in the Christian tradition as timeless because “time” is seen as created whereas God is not.

(2) As for time as a series where only the “now” is actualised, I think this is true phenomenologically. It is true for us who are living in time that “now” is the only reality, but time is also relative so it is a bit more complex than this.

(3) I’m not sure what you mean by your conclusion. Can you please rephrase it?

It is very simple. Consider all state of creations as snapshots which one state is actual at the moment so called now. God is the sustainer hence he should know what is the current time is. Current time/now is however subject to changes. This means that God needs a reference point which allows him to sustain creation at now. The position of this reference point is subject to change which means that knowledge of God is subjected to change which problematic since God’s knowledge cannot change.

 

[frangiuliano115]

It is very simple. Consider all state of creations as snapshots which one state is actual at the moment so called now. God is the sustainer hence he should know what is the current time is. Current time/now is however subject to changes. This means that **God needs a reference point **which allows him to sustain creation at now. The position of this reference point is subject to change which means that knowledge of God is subjected to change which problematic since God’s knowledge cannot change.

God needs a reference point?

I don’t think God needs anything!

Fran

 

[Bahman]

God needs a reference point?

I don’t think God needs anything!

Fran

It needs. How God could know what the current time is when all states of creation are present to him. There should be something, what I call reference point, which differs the state in current time from others.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It needs. How God could know what the current time is when all states of creation are present to him. There should be something, what I call reference point, which differs the state in current time from others.

Bahaman…

THERE IS NO TIME TO GOD.

If my excessive font manipulation doesn’t get the point across, allow me to continue. God doesn’t need to know what time it is because time is inconsequential to Him. He knows the way we understand time at any given point of His eternal Now because He is omnipotent, and all knowledge is within Him. Something which contains all things does not require something external to itself to know something; if it did then it would no longer be omniscient.

You claim to have studied these subjects in depth, but the childishness of you tiresome, repetitious posts betrays the fact that you have either studied them very cursory, like a college student who takes psych 101 and fancies himself a great know-er of the inner workings of humanity; or you are literally a child who has found his father’s philosophy book and is trying to make sense of it.

You make the same statements over and over and over again, trying different combinations of letters and words to try to prove your “point,” which has already been so thoroughly shredded as to be considered confetti. You never listen to us; in all of your fifty plus topics on this and that subject, I don’t believe you’ve ever admitted when you were wrong, regardless of how completely your argument has been laid waste. You are a man screaming into a crowd, and then covering your ears and closing your eyes when the crowd screams back. You are not seeking knowledge, you are not seeking learning, you are not even seeking debate. You are just looking for a place to grandstand and make yourself feel intelligent.

For the past year or more, I, Bookcat, and others have tried to engage you in respectful, complete dialogue; and tried to help you understand where your notions are flawed so that you can grow as a person, as a debater, and as a philosopher. We have offered suggestions about better ways to present your arguments and pointed out when you are making irrational statements or committing logical fallacies, not to make you feel stupid, but to help you be better. You, in turn, have never once responded to our posts in a rational way. You rarely respond to what we actually say, and when you do respond, you do little more than restate the position which had just been attacked as though restating it was sufficient to reaffirm its correctness. Your non-sequiturs and strawmen arguments are the stuff of legends, and your premises and conclusions are the stuff of nightmares; not because they bring about any fundamental dilemma to your opponents, but rather because they are so thoroughly irrational that we cannot comprehend how it is possible that you hold those positions to be true.

I recognize that this post has been harsh, but I do not believe it to be unduly so. We, all of us who engage you, desire for you to grow as a person. We want you to learn, and we want you to develop. We hope for you to learn logical reasoning and rational deduction, because it is through these things that many of us came to know God; a state which we genuinely desire for you. However, no matter how much we may desire these things for you, if you do not desire them for yourself; if you do not desire true knowledge and ability, then we are wasting our time.

I wish you well Bahaman, but I cannot do this dance any more. Feel free to respond if you desire, but I won’t be opening this thread again, so I won’t see it.

 

[You]

nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/garofalo-the-vision-of-saint-augustine

 

[Bahman]

Bahaman…

THERE IS NO TIME TO GOD.

I didn’t say so. My basic objection was that God need a reference point to understand what is the current time. In simple word God needs that since all states of creation are present to Him.
ProdglArchitect;13359491:

If my excessive font manipulation doesn’t get the point across, allow me to continue. God doesn’t need to know what time it is because time is inconsequential to Him. He knows the way we

understand time at any given point of His eternal Now because He is omnipotent, and all knowledge is within Him. Something which contains all things does not require something external to itself to know something; if it did then it would no longer be omniscient.

Does God know what is current time. Do you have a simple argument based on your imagination that your approach is correct? Claiming God is omniscient doesn’t resolve any problem while my argument is standing.

You claim to have studied these subjects in depth, but the childishness of you tiresome, repetitious posts betrays the fact that you have either studied them very cursory, like a college student who takes psych 101 and fancies himself a great know-er of the inner workings of humanity; or you are literally a child who has found his father’s philosophy book and is trying to make sense of it.

I don’t understand how this could be related to our argument. You cannot offer an argument instead keep trying to say that God is omnipotent and omniscient. That to my understanding is not a useful debate.

You make the same statements over and over and over again, trying different combinations of letters and words to try to prove your “point,” which has already been so thoroughly shredded as to be considered confetti. You never

listen to us; in all of your fifty plus topics on this and that subject, I don’t believe you’ve ever admitted when you were wrong, regardless of how completely your argument has been laid waste. You are a man screaming into a crowd, and then covering your ears and closing your eyes when the crowd screams back. You are not seeking knowledge, you are not seeking learning, you are not even seeking debate. You are just looking for a place to grandstand and make yourself feel intelligent.

Can you read my mind?

For the past year or more, I, Bookcat, and others have tried to engage you in respectful, complete dialogue; and tried to help you understand where your notions are flawed so that you can grow as a person, as a debater, and as a philosopher. We have offered suggestions about better ways to present your arguments and pointed out when you are making irrational statements or committing logical fallacies, not to make you feel stupid, but to help you be

better. You, in turn, have never once responded to our posts in a rational way. You rarely respond to what we actually say, and when you do respond, you do little more than restate the position which had just been attacked as though restating it was sufficient to reaffirm its correctness. Your non-sequiturs and strawmen arguments are the stuff of legends, and your premises and conclusions are the stuff of nightmares; not because they bring about any fundamental dilemma to your opponents, but rather because they are so thoroughly irrational that we cannot comprehend how it is possible that you hold those positions to be true.

You simply evade the discussion not trying hard to understand my argument. Why don’t you doubt that your approach is wrong and mine is correct. I leave this question to you: How God could know the current time when all state of creation is present to him. You need your imagination to get my simple point. I tried hard to make my argument as simple as possible yet you don’t try to understand it.

I recognize that this post has been harsh, but I do not believe it to be unduly so. We, all of us who engage you, desire for you to grow as a person. We want you to learn, and we want you to develop. We hope for you to learn logical reasoning and rational deduction, because it is through these things that many of us came to know God; a state which we genuinely desire for you. However, no matter how much we may desire these things for you, if you do not desire them for yourself; if you do not desire true knowledge and ability, then we are wasting our time.

What if I am right and you are wrong.

I wish you well Bahaman, but I cannot do this dance any more. Feel free to respond if you desire, but I won’t be opening this thread again, so I won’t see it.

I wouldn’t stop if I was instead of you. You instead don’t try to understand my argument evading the situation by saying that God is omnipotent and omniscient. That is to my understanding is not a correct approach since doesn’t raveled any thing and doesn’t does help you to improve your understanding.

 

[Bahman]

nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/garofalo-the-vision-of-saint-augustine

What is that about? We either understand God by following a useful debate or we cannot. This is necessary since leave the concept of God full of paradoxes.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I don’t understand how first cause is related to topic of this thread! The core idea as it was explain in OP was that a changeless God does not know the current time, now, hence he could not sustain creation. Could you please read the OP more carefully?

It does relate to the topic because you are saying a changeless being can not know the current time. However, time is a measurement of change. And all change can be casually traced back to an unchanged changer. Therefore you could not have time without a changeless first cause who sustains everything in existence as the foundation of existence.

 

[Bahman]

It does relate to the topic because you are saying a changeless being can not know the current time. However, time is a measurement of change. And all change can be casually traced back to an unchanged changer. Therefore you could not have time without a changeless first cause who sustains everything in existence as the foundation of existence.

How the states of creation can be traced back without a reference point?

 

[You]

What is that about? We either understand God by following a useful debate or we cannot. This is necessary since leave the concept of God full of paradoxes.

what if his ways are not your ways. What if he is infinite and eternal, how will your mind cope with infinite and eternal data about him?

 

[Bookcat]

For readers:

God is outside of time. God does not know things like we do in time. God is not a creature in time but the cause all that exists - including time.

(one cannot take ones experience as a creature in time and think that such is how God knows…God is God not a creature. God is outside of time. Time is part of his creation).

 

[meltzerboy]

For readers:

God is outside of time. God does not know things like we do in time. God is not a creature in time but the cause all that exists - including time.

(one cannot take ones experience as a creature in time and think that such is how God knows…God is God not a creature. God is outside of time. Time is part of his creation).

However, we believe that G-d knows and understands our human experiences, thoughts, feelings, drives. Therefore, He also knows “things like we do in time” in the sense that He can experience and understand our temporal reference while, at the same time, not be limited with respect to time.

Further, I believe that physicists debate the very existence of time and its passage in a linear sense. The question concerning the existence of time, however, may be different from our physical and psychological perception of time.

 

[Ghosty]

Time is a creature, a thing apart from God. To quote someone who was likely quoting someone else: “Time is Gods way of making sure everything doesn’t happen all at once.”

The universe is like a fabulous soup, and God is the chef. We, and everything else in the universe, are ingredients. With proper heat, timing, and sense of taste, God is making His soup. We as humans are special, and have a sense of something outside the pot we swim in, but let’s not confuse the soup with the chef.

Just as a good chef doesn’t throw all the ingredients together at once and let them brew together, but waits for the proper time for each to release its full flavor, God works the pot to the benefit of the ingredients, which in turn is to the benefit of the soup. Time is our perception of this process from within the pot.

Aquinas didn’t invent God, he simply recognized Him as something outside the soup and tried to explain how different He must be from us. Aquinas didn’t understand timelessness, as that is a negative without inherent meaning. He was merely pointing out the obvious that the chef must not be exactly like the soup, and time is one of those differences.
Peace and God bless!

 

[Bookcat]

Further, I believe that physicists debate the very existence of time and its passage in a linear sense. The question concerning the existence of time, however, may be different from our physical and psychological perception of time.

Not to be dismissive…well ok to be dismissive…“thats nice”

No matter how one slices it all creation including time is known to God as God -God is God.

 

[Bookcat]

However, we believe that G-d knows and understands our human experiences, thoughts, feelings, drives. Therefore, He also knows “things like we do in time” in the sense that He can experience and understand our temporal reference while, at the same time, not be limited with respect to time..

I do think we will agree totally with one another. But I do not want to get into the above - I do not have time…

God is God and is more unlike his creation than like his creation. And God knows as God. God is outside time and holds all things in existence and causes all things to be. God knows them intimately as God and not as a creature.

 

[frangiuliano115]

For readers:

God is outside of time. God does not know things like we do in time. God is not a creature in time but the cause all that exists - including time.

(one cannot take ones experience as a creature in time and think that such is how God knows…God is God not a creature. God is outside of time. Time is part of his creation).

Of course Bookcat.

Most here know this.

Thanks for the simple explanation. Some concepts are better to be kept simple so our brain doesn’t blow up!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Time is a creature, a thing apart from God. To quote someone who was likely quoting someone else: “Time is Gods way of making sure everything doesn’t happen all at once.”

The universe is like a fabulous soup, and God is the chef. We, and everything else in the universe, are ingredients. With proper heat, timing, and sense of taste, God is making His soup. We as humans are special, and have a sense of something outside the pot we swim in, but let’s not confuse the soup with the chef.

Just as a good chef doesn’t throw all the ingredients together at once and let them brew together, but waits for the proper time for each to release its full flavor, God works the pot to the benefit of the ingredients, which in turn is to the benefit of the soup. Time is our perception of this process from within the pot.

Aquinas didn’t invent God, he simply recognized Him as something outside the soup and tried to explain how different He must be from us. Aquinas didn’t understand timelessness, as that is a negative without inherent meaning. He was merely pointing out the obvious that the chef must not be exactly like the soup, and time is one of those differences.
Peace and God bless!

I’ve never heard this. I love it!

Could you tell me what the Melkite church is?

Thanks.

Fran

 

[Ghosty]

I’ve never heard this. I love it!

Could you tell me what the Melkite church is?

Thanks.

Fran

I think you would be better off Googling it or the like. In short, it is the Catholic counterpart to the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Glad I could help. God bless!

 

[yppop]

Timeless God was invented to allow foreknowledge. God is however claimed to sustain creation in his eternal now. Lets consider all state of creation as a series snapshot only one of them is actual in the moment so called now. This however requires the knowledge of current time which is changing hence the act of sustaining creation is impossible by a timeless God.

Your thought.

Bahman;
The scenario you describe could have come from the unique thesis that I’ve posted on several occasion, a thesis that only one or two others took the time to understand.

I think that you, by dumb luck, stumbled on the nature of reality at the implicate level, or the ground of reality at which level God creates and sustains, while we dummies experience and science describes the results at the explicate level.

The NOW you imagined can only be described as the cosmic configuration of quarks and electrons (and here I am withholding the true nature of those elementary point particles to avoid confusion). In a NOW, as I describe it, there is no energy, color, light, qualia, sound, forces of any kind, and any other of science’s contrived abstractions, and especially there is no time. The time I am referring to is the the time that is associated with the change in position of those quarks and electrons as measured against other local configuration we call clocks, the only time we experience. Let’s call it cosmological time. The configuration of the point particles was arranged by God, who then increments the whole cosmic configuration to a new configuration called the NEXT. The change from NOW to NEXT occurs through the impetus provided by God. And so it continues NOW-NEXT-NEXT-NEXT… and so on. Now we should see cosmological time passing as the cosmological clocks advance, we should observe energy as the local configuration that represents matter change positions, etc, etc and objective reality appears just like a film passing through a projector is manifested as motion on the screen or like real sharp programmers effect real life simulations in 2D in the cinema or on the computer screen; surely God could do it in 3D.

What about God who is creating new forms of matter by altering the NEXT configuration when necessary and moving every thing along with the cosmic impetus. Surely God must be thinking as new thoughts appear in His mind, sequence of thoughts constitutes train of thought that can be considered as a passage of time, ontological time. Ontological time that is formed in pure of spirit transcends and subsumes the cosmological time that is formed in matter. We cannot perceive ontological time.

Thanks Bahman for the great opening, I am sure you didn’t mean to.

Yppop

.

 

[jonathan_hili]

It is very simple. Consider all state of creations as snapshots which one state is actual at the moment so called now. God is the sustainer hence he should know what is the current time is. Current time/now is however subject to changes. This means that God needs a reference point which allows him to sustain creation at now. The position of this reference point is subject to change which means that knowledge of God is subjected to change which problematic since God’s knowledge cannot change.

But time is relative. The actual moment “now” is for us “now” but it is not “now” for someone who lived three hundred years ago, or for us “now” by the time this post has been read. To say that God knows what the current time is is to confuse the issue. From an eternal perspective, the question: “What time is it now?” is incoherent, just like asking that question to someone living on Mars would give you a different answer to someone living in South Africa.